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<p>Even allowing the request may be too much as that request will
have to be reviewed and handled by someone, taking away resources
from the request that have a more realistic chance for a positive
response and a concrete need for the data, such as local LEAs and
holders of rights being actively infringed upon by the domain
holder.</p>
<p>If you have to look at RDAP/WHOIS to find out whom you are doing
business with, you probably should not buy there in the first
place. <br>
</p>
<p>That info belongs with the content.</p>
<p>Volker<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Am 28.08.2019 um 20:25 schrieb King,
Brian via Gnso-epdp-team:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
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<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal">Hey Amr and all,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I can’t speak authoritatively for ALAC’s
intent, but I read this use case as allowing internet users to
<i>request</i> (not have an entitlement to receive)
information about a website they might do business with, a
link they might click, etc.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I think we’re merely talking about allowing
an internet user to ask the question, without presupposing any
access outcome. Does that change your perspective?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I’m sympathetic to concerns raised about
the bounds of ICANN’s remit, and I might find those concerns
more persuasive if we were talking about guaranteed access in
this case.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;color:black" lang="EN-GB">Brian
J. King
</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:black"
lang="EN-GB"> <br>
Director of Internet Policy and Industry Affairs<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;color:black" lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;color:black" lang="EN-GB">T +1 443
761 3726</span><u><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#0563C1"><a
href="http://www.markmonitor.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="color:#0563C1"
lang="EN-GB"><br>
</span><span style="color:#0563C1">markmonitor.com</span></a></span></u><span
style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;color:black" lang="EN-GB">MarkMonitor<br>
</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:black"
lang="EN-GB">Protecting companies and consumers in a
digital world<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Gnso-epdp-team
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:gnso-epdp-team-bounces@icann.org"><gnso-epdp-team-bounces@icann.org></a>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Amr Elsadr<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, August 27, 2019 7:28 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Hadia Abdelsalam Mokhtar EL miniawi
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:Hadia@tra.gov.eg"><Hadia@tra.gov.eg></a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:gnso-epdp-team@icann.org">gnso-epdp-team@icann.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Gnso-epdp-team] Notes and action
items from EPDP Team Phase 2 Meeting #11 - 1 August 2019 -
ALAC Online buyers Use Case<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Hi,<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">The issue many of us have with this use
case isn’t that Internet users should not be entitled to
know who they elect to do business with over the web, so I
don’t believe it is necessary to keep pushing that point.
The issue is that in situations where entities conducting
commerce over the Web do not have their contact information
readily published on their websites, ICANN/gTLD policy is an
inappropriate substitute to resolve this, due to ICANN’s
narrow mission.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Speaking for myself, even if it were
legal for ICANN to adopt policies that are beyond the scope
of its mission (which I don’t think is the case here), it is
undesirable for it to do so. Not having a clearly drawn line
in the sand on what ICANN can regulate online via
contractual compliance with Registries and Registrars,
including selling and purchasing goods and services, is a
prospect that I find to be very unappealing. It creates a
great deal of uncertainty for both Contracted Parties
providing domain name registration services, as well as
registrants who utilize these services.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">My interpretation of consumer protection
from an ICANN perspective is that registrants are THE
consumers of services in the ICANN context. In that context,
proposing policy recommendations beyond the scope of ICANN’s
mission is bad, not good, for consumer protection. …, and
like I said…, I don’t believe it to be complaint with data
protection regulation, such as the GDPR, anyway.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Thanks.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Amr<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Aug 26, 2019, at 5:37 PM, Hadia
Abdelsalam Mokhtar EL miniawi <<a
href="mailto:Hadia@tra.gov.eg"
moz-do-not-send="true">Hadia@tra.gov.eg</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New Roman",serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Hello
All,</span><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New Roman",serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New Roman",serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">The
ALAC online buyers online case is a real life
scenario for why there needs to be a distinction
between natural and legal persons. I shall not get
into this debate. However, I note that consumers
identity and even location is now available to
buyers through many online applications, GDPR
protects personal information of natural persons
and not legal persons. It is only fair to Internet
end users to allow them to have the contact
information of the online businesses. This is
particularly important in case Internet end users
are dealing with small businesses online. You can
find online businesses contact details now
through some existing applications. What and who
are we trying to protect by not allowing this use
case. Commercial websites should be encouraged to
indicate who they are and publish their
information. The architecture of the web
inherently does not require real identity, but
having a complete anonymous system is always an
invitation to problems, making people feel less
accountable and diminishing the trust in the
network. A survey conducted by Bright Local showed
that 60% of customers prefer to call small
businesses on the phone. The survey also showed
that consumers now look beyond websites, RDS is
only one tool of many however, prohibiting it to
exist works against the norm. I also note that
getting clarity in relation to the contracted
parties liability in this regard is very important
and if implemented information should only be
provided if the case is absolutely clear.</span><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New Roman",serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New Roman",serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">I
attach the updated user case, which is also
available through the google doc</span><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New Roman",serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New Roman",serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Best</span><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New Roman",serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Hadia
el-Miniawi </span><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New Roman",serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New Roman",serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span
class="apple-converted-space"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif"> </span></span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif">Gnso-epdp-team
[<a
href="mailto:gnso-epdp-team-bounces@icann.org"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="color:purple">mailto:gnso-epdp-team-bounces@icann.org</span></a>]<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><b>On
Behalf Of<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Mueller,
Milton L<br>
<b>Sent:</b><span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Monday,
August 19, 2019 5:27 PM<br>
<b>To:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Tara
Whalen;<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a
href="mailto:gnso-epdp-team@icann.org"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="color:purple">gnso-epdp-team@icann.org</span></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b><span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Re:
[Gnso-epdp-team] Notes and action items from
EPDP Team Phase 2 Meeting #11 - 1 August 2019
- ALAC Online buyers Use Case</span><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New Roman",serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New Roman",serif"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Tara:</span><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New Roman",serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Responses
inline below:</span><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New Roman",serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New Roman",serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<ol style="margin-top:0in" start="1" type="1">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-list:l0 level1
lfo1"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">The
ICANN Board resolved in May to have the ePDP
“determine and resolve the Legal vs. Natural
issue in Phase 2." <a
href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.icann.org_resources_board-2Dmaterial_resolutions-2D2019-2D05-2D15-2Den-231.b&d=DwMGaQ&c=OGmtg_3SI10Cogwk-ShFiw&r=qQNCXqU_XE2XIdXbawYmk-YDflYH6pd8ffXlzxU37OA&m=B8MS1O2ZkevjBW6hFhUe1Tfw1xhaFLotkSAAZ3g3DYQ&s=IAoMV6Yy5PfTOTRJ7D6oVAm1m5bFZMOIZHmnJjr4Gnk&e="
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="color:purple">https://www.icann.org/resources/board-material/resolutions-2019-05-15-en#1.b</span></a>
Because the issue is not decided.</span><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><o:p></o:p></span></li>
</ol>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <span style="color:#1F497D">Not
quite correct. The Board noted that EPDP’s own
Recommendation said that we would resolve the
issue in Phase 2. The board did not tell us to
do so. The resolution also notes the “</span><span
style="color:#1F4E79;background:white">Potential
liability of a registered name holder's
incorrect self-identification of a natural or
legal person, which ultimately results in
public display of personal data.” This concern
was one of several that motivated our
reluctance to attempt differentiation.</span><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<ol style="margin-top:0in" start="2" type="1">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-list:l3 level1
lfo2"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">The
EWG recommended a differentiation solution --
that registrants be required to identify as a
Registrant Type, with Legal Person and Natural
Person among the options. It also required
that a mandatory Business PBC be published for
“Registrants that self-identify as Legal
Persons engaged in commercial activity"
(pages 42-44 of final report). <span
class="gmail-m543594540927956435apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><o:p></o:p></span></li>
</ol>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">This
option _<i>was</i>_ discussed and discarded in
Phase 1. It was noted that to the vast
majority of ordinary people the distinction
between legal and natural has no meaning, and
that there would be liability consequences if
there were incorrect identification (see
above). And besides, the recommendation of the
EWG was made prior to GDPR and has no bearing
on EPDP.</span><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New Roman",serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<ol style="margin-top:0in" start="3" type="1">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-list:l2 level1
lfo3"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">ICANN’s
Procedure for Handling WHOIS Conflicts with
Privacy Law was reviewed by the GNSO and
revised in mid-2017. A goal of the Procedure
was “to resolve the problem in a manner that
preserves the ability of the
registrar/registry to comply with its
[current] contractual WHOIS obligations to the
greatest extent possible”. So -- to publish
as much data as possible as allowed by law.</span><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><o:p></o:p></span></li>
</ol>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span><span
style="color:#1F497D">Now you are way off
base. Contractual Whois obligations in 2017
were not compliant with GDPR. The Conflicts
with Privacy Law procedure is completely
irrelevant to our proceedings.</span><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New Roman",serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<ol style="margin-top:0in" start="4" type="1">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-list:l1 level1
lfo4"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Under
that Procedure, about the only precedent was
the .TEL case, which addressed concerns raised
by UK privacy law. In that case, the WHOIS
service was made to differentiate between
natural and legal persons. Some public WHOIS
data was limited for natural persons who had
elected to withhold their personal information
from disclosure by the WHOIS service, records
for Legal Persons had to return full and
complete WHOIS data (including applicable
personal data), and Legal Persons were not
permitted to opt out of disclosing such
information. The GDPR is definitely a
different law and may yield a different
policy. But the .TEL case did show that it’s
possible to tell the difference between a
natural person’s data and a legal person’s
data, and to control where that data appears.</span><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><o:p></o:p></span></li>
</ol>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <span style="color:#1F497D">Same
comment as above.<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><Consumer_Protection_Use_Case_ALAC
- Online buyers_Update_2.docx><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">_______________________________________________
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</blockquote>
<div class="moz-signature">-- <br>
Volker A. Greimann<br>
General Counsel and Policy Manager<br>
<strong style="border-bottom: 3px solid #5C46B5">KEY-SYSTEMS GMBH</strong><br>
<br>
T: +49 6894 9396901<br>
M: +49 6894 9396851<br>
F: +49 6894 9396851<br>
W: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.key-systems.net">www.key-systems.net</a><br>
<br>
Key-Systems GmbH is a company registered at the local court of
Saarbruecken, Germany with the registration no. HR B 18835<br>
CEO: Alexander Siffrin<br>
<br>
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