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<p>Hi,</p>
<p>I think the disconnect is on the nature of the recommendation.
You seem to favor a strong recommendation with near binding power
whereas we see it as a more or a shopping cart style ("people who
liked this also liked that") recommendation with no binding power
or strong indication whatsoever. A helpful guide, but nothing
more. <br>
</p>
<p>Best,</p>
<p>Volker<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Am 05.02.2020 um 01:49 schrieb Mark
Svancarek (CELA) via Gnso-epdp-team:<br>
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<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:JA"><resending
with ambiguous phrasing corrected><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:JA"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:JA">Hi
Alan, my comments are inline below. Perhaps we are closer
than you think.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:JA">Note
that the Gateway plays a more authoritative role in this
version because that’s how I perceived the feedback received
over the last few days – it seemed there was an expectation
that the Gateway would be making very strong recommendations
for certain use cases and CPs might be inclined to
automatically accept them, to the extent that the Gateway
could be considered an authorizer for such use cases. If I
misjudged that, it’s easily remedied by only a few edits to
the document.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:JA"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Alan Woods
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:alan@donuts.email"><alan@donuts.email></a> <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, February 4, 2020 3:13 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Mark Svancarek (CELA) <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:marksv@microsoft.com"><marksv@microsoft.com></a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:gnso-epdp-team@icann.org">gnso-epdp-team@icann.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [EXTERNAL] Re: [Gnso-epdp-team] Latest version
of Automated Use Cases document<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Mark,<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Thanks for completing this. Noting we
did discuss this, alas I must note that this new document
does not reflect my impression of the discussion that we
had: <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<ol type="1" start="1">
<li class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l3
level1 lfo3">
I recall we discussed that the decision for disclosure
would be at the option of the controller, who on the
basis of the data and risk profile before them, can
initiate the automated response. This assumption was
acceptable to me. This resultant document does not even
contemplate this. I particularly note an expanded creep
back into 'required' automated disclosure. This is not
agreed, was not discussed, and should not be included in
our interim report. <o:p></o:p></li>
</ol>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><i>[Mark
Svancarek] &$!#^! Please replace “</i></b><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">make
a decision to require</span><b><i>” in Assumption VII
</i></b><b><i><span style="font-family:Wingdings">à</span>
“</i></b><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">make
a decision to request</span><b><i>”. I can see how that
Assumption would have colored your reading of the rest
of the document.</i></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<ol type="1" start="2">
<li class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l3
level1 lfo3">
The assumptions in this document assumes that the
Gateway / authorization body will have the data to make
the decision - although you note in VII that that
singular assumption may modify the relationships, for
the record this does actually completely depart from the
swimlane model as presented. <o:p></o:p></li>
</ol>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><i>[Mark
Svancarek] Correct<o:p></o:p></i></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in">The
model represented now effectively tries to avoid the
central body actually processing of registration data
(gateway/ Auth).
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><i>[Mark
Svancarek] Clarifying, is “model represented now” the
model in the current draft report?<o:p></o:p></i></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in">Your
assumptions are forcing that body into a decision making
controllership role (automated is still a decision).
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><i>[Mark
Svancarek] None of these use cases, as far as I can
tell, require inspection of any personal data at the
Gateway; none of these use cases require the Gateway
to become a controller of non-public registrant data.
That was a deliberate consideration on my part. VII is
a caveat for completeness. Perhaps this would be more
clear if the order of VII and VIII were reversed, or
if VII were simply deleted.</i></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in">Adhering
to the swimlane as presented, the decision and the
automation will still occur at the CP at their discretion
- and imposition is not envisaged. (allowing a factual
apportionment of a 'processor' role under a JCA). <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><i>[Mark
Svancarek] As is usual for us, the term “automation”
is being overloaded. I was tempted to add a section
to the document to clarify this, so perhaps it was a
miss that I did not do so. The very act of generating
a recommendation at the Gateway is automation and
that’s one of the things being discussed here.
Specific types of automation will occur at a CP, but
“Automation” as a concept is not limited to the CP.</i></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<ol type="1" start="3">
<li class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l3
level1 lfo3">
The additional mix of the 'recommendation' concept into
nudging towards automation is new. It is also unhelpful.
Calling a spade a spade, a "recommendation and feedback"
imposition on the decision maker is flipping the actual
requirement here. The controller may tell the central
body that certain decisions can be automated (as we
discussed)- not vice versa (notwithstanding that this is
only possible where the central body has the data, which
is again not currently envisaged in the swimlane model).
<o:p></o:p></li>
</ol>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><i>[Mark
Svancarek] I don’t think the controller needs to
inform the Gateway what it can automate in advance,
but it should provide feedback if a recommendation for
automation can’t be supported. Note that the Gateway
could have all sorts of data potentially valuable to a
disclosure decision, just not the non-public data of
the record being requested. The assignment of flags
is a way of codifying those data to enable automation.<o:p></o:p></i></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in">To
confirm the central body, acting in the factual guise of a
processor, must act solely on the instructions of the
controller in 'permitted' instances. To reverse this
assumption i.e. to have the processor continually
recommend chipping away at the clear and sole instructions
of the controller is anathema to the spirit of article 28
and will draw the ire of privacy by default; disclosures
on a sliding scale of automated 'recommendations', based
on observed and solely empirical data from decisions;
(assuming we are not commissioning an AI who can
understand the nuance of a balancing test), then observed
repetition of decisions does not a rule make; errors in
judgment may occur, and repetition of that error does not
make it less of an error. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><i>[Mark
Svancarek] I don’t think I disagree with this.</i></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<ol type="1" start="4">
<li class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l3
level1 lfo3">
<i>"A requestor can selectively assert whether data
specific disclosed in response to a particular request
will be used in a way that has legal or similarly
significant effects on the data subjects."</i> - this
is a controller's job not the requester. Plus,
objectively speaking, we cannot build an inherent bias
in the requestor's request. All requesters (one assumes)
have a subjective goal to achieve; surely they are not
going to play up the impact, where they know that the
greater impact, the more important such an impact plays
in the balance. I understand the suggestion is well
meaning, and a controller will certainly take any such
an assertion into account - but let's be clear that the
assertion of the requester is a single factor of the
consideration, and should never be determinative.<o:p></o:p></li>
</ol>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><i>[Mark
Svancarek] We require requestors to make many
assertions, upon risk of disaccreditation</i></b>.
<b><i>This just adds another. I think you are perhaps
missing the point of it – a requestor can only use it
if they are literally planning not to use the data in
a way that has legal or similarly significant effects;
it’s not meant to be affixed to every request
regardless of type or purpose. Based on feedback I
have received, I think this is will be quite useful
when automating certain types of requests. That’s
true even though it’s non-determinative.
</i></b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">As Volker noted, and as I discussed
with you, most of these instances still require human
interaction, which is within the sole purview of the
controller. I agreed that some of the examples noted may
be automated (e.g. in jurisdiction request of a LEA or
equivalent - i.e. where the controller will process under
6(1)c or equivalent. I also agree that there are instances
where the controller wishes to voluntarily assume risk,
and takes measures to automate themselves (adhering to the
swimlane) - that does not mean that these 'use cases'
support automation for all, merely that they support a
concept of 'automation at risk' to the controller. Such a
heightened risk profile cannot be imposed on other
controllers not so inclined or advised. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><i>[Mark Svancarek] I do not
disagree. I only hope that these examples will be
seen as low-hanging opportunities for streamlining
process, as described in Assumption V.</i></b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I also note that Brian King's separate
missives seem to suggest that this is to be included in
the interim report. Again this was not the understanding
from our conversations. We had discussed that this was
reference material for the benefit of discussion, and not
part of our report. I do not support its inclusion in the
report at this point; it has not been properly discussed
and does not align with the actual understanding of the
model as described. I also doubt that this will garner
such required discussion in the few days we have prior to
publication. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><i>[Mark Svancarek] Yes, this is
very late.</i></b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Warm regards,<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Alan <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<a
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<b><span
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Woods</span></b><b><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
</div>
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<span
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Compliance
& Policy
Manager, Donuts
Inc.</span>
<o:p></o:p></p>
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<span
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<span
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D, Iveagh
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<span
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2, County
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Tue, Feb 4, 2020 at 3:39 AM Mark
Svancarek (CELA) via Gnso-epdp-team <<a
href="mailto:gnso-epdp-team@icann.org"
moz-do-not-send="true">gnso-epdp-team@icann.org</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC
1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Thanks
you all for your patience waiting for this, and thanks
to everyone who sent me feedback both privately and
on-list. Hopefully I have incorporated all the
feedback*
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">I’ve
consolidated various use cases and assumptions.
Apologies in advance because this resulted in
renumbering from the previous version.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">/marksv<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">*except
for the Trademark use case, where the feedback was
inconsistent. We’ll have fun with that one.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal">_______________________________________________<br>
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<fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">_______________________________________________
Gnso-epdp-team mailing list
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