<div dir="ltr"><div>Hi Melina,</div><div><br></div><div>it is based in part on registrar experience and in part on the ICANN study on Abuse that found abuse was actually declining. The lack of automated, unreviewed access to whois data has not lead to any noticeable increase of abuse, at least I have seen nothing that counters that view. So if in the past three years it was not needed, why is it so urgent now?</div><div><br></div><div>As for NIS2, I invite you to answer my question during the call: Why not apply the very same requirements to hosters, e.g. the parties that actually have access to the objectionable materials.</div><div><br></div><div>You raised CSAM as an example. OK, lets go there: CSAM is not spread through a domain. It is always spread through hosting. The domain may make it easier to access, but if you remove the domain, the content is still there...<br></div><div><br></div><div><div><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><span lang="EN-US">-- <br>Volker A. Greimann<br>General Counsel and Policy Manager<br><b>KEY-SYSTEMS GMBH</b><br><br>T: +49 6894 9396901<br>M: +49 6894 9396851<br>F: +49 6894 9396851<br>W: </span><a href="http://www.key-systems.net/" style="color:rgb(17,85,204)" target="_blank"><span lang="EN-US">www.key-systems.net</span></a><span lang="EN-US"><br><br>Key-Systems GmbH is a company registered at the local court of Saarbruecken, Germany with the registration no. HR B 18835<br>CEO: Oliver Fries and Robert Birkner<br><br>Part of the CentralNic Group PLC (LON: CNIC) a company registered in England and Wales with company number 8576358.<br><br></span><span style="font-family:Roboto,sans-serif;font-size:14px;white-space:pre-wrap;background-color:rgb(248,249,250)">This email and any files transmitted are confidential and intended only for the person(s) directly addressed. If you are not the intended recipient, any use, copying, transmission, distribution, or other forms of dissemination is strictly prohibited. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender immediately and permanently delete this email with any files that may be attached.</span></div></div></div></div></div><br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, Apr 22, 2021 at 4:40 PM STROUNGI Melina <<a href="mailto:Melina.STROUNGI@ec.europa.eu">Melina.STROUNGI@ec.europa.eu</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div lang="EN-US">
<div class="gmail-m_8904438535722713907WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Hi,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">We want to do it both fast and right. Differentiation between natural and legal persons can achieve doing it both fast and right, and is fully in line with GDPR
and NIS 2 proposal.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">“</span><i><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">The status quo of the past three years illustrates there is no urgency.”</span></i><i><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Wingdings">à</span></i><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">
<span style="color:rgb(31,73,125)">Where are you basing this argument? Do you have a link or report to share?
<u></u><u></u></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">The past three years have revealed numerous and major problems resulting from the redacted information. This is the very reason why EC proposed NIS 2 proposal
at the first place.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Any implication that all those complaints received are inexistent and that DNS abuse is an imaginary problem is disrespectful at the very least.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Best,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Melina<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> Gnso-epdp-team <<a href="mailto:gnso-epdp-team-bounces@icann.org" target="_blank">gnso-epdp-team-bounces@icann.org</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Volker Greimann via Gnso-epdp-team<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, April 22, 2021 4:10 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Alan Greenberg <<a href="mailto:alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca" target="_blank">alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b> EPDP <<a href="mailto:gnso-epdp-team@icann.org" target="_blank">gnso-epdp-team@icann.org</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Gnso-epdp-team] SSAD as a means of publishing non-personal data<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Hi Alan,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">do we want it fast or do we want it right? The status quo of the past three years illustrates there is no urgency.
<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">1. I agree it is some time out yet, and we might need to clarify current disclosure rules to tide us over.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="gmail-m_8904438535722713907gmail-im">2.-3. Yes I am proposing a fee, but that is not unreasonable. The requestor is getting a service after all. And it has precedent in other public databases.Ultimately, this would be an implementation question, but
having a token fee also ensures less abuse will take place. </span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="gmail-m_8904438535722713907gmail-im">4. I think this could be completed in time before the SSAD goes live, and this could then be quickly added. Think DLC for an AAA game.
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
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<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">-- <br>
Volker A. Greimann<br>
General Counsel and Policy Manager<br>
<b>KEY-SYSTEMS GMBH</b><br>
<br>
T: +49 6894 9396901<br>
M: +49 6894 9396851<br>
F: +49 6894 9396851<br>
W: <a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/www.key-systems.net/__;!!DOxrgLBm!RmawU_eWcoe7RX3DvV2_0BnjdXdVYP6GXl95shj5pftgywU5ogWBrEplmQeLNWufRcO7hTTq$" target="_blank"><span style="color:rgb(17,85,204)">www.key-systems.net</span></a><br>
<br>
Key-Systems GmbH is a company registered at the local court of Saarbruecken, Germany with the registration no. HR B 18835<br>
CEO: Oliver Fries and Robert Birkner<br>
<br>
Part of the CentralNic Group PLC (LON: CNIC) a company registered in England and Wales with company number 8576358.<br>
<br>
<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Roboto",serif;background:rgb(248,249,250) none repeat scroll 0% 0%">This email and any files transmitted are confidential and intended only for the person(s) directly addressed. If you are not the intended recipient, any use, copying, transmission,
distribution, or other forms of dissemination is strictly prohibited. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender immediately and permanently delete this email with any files that may be attached.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Thu, Apr 22, 2021 at 4:02 PM Alan Greenberg <<a href="mailto:alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca" target="_blank">alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border-color:currentcolor currentcolor currentcolor rgb(204,204,204);border-style:none none none solid;border-width:medium medium medium 1pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt;margin:5pt 0cm 5pt 4.8pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">At 2021-04-22 09:10 AM, Volker Greimann wrote:<br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt">
<p class="MsoNormal">1. SSAD was approved by the PDPD consensus, by the GNSO council with sufficient votes and by the board. It will exist. If it does not, we will be forced back to the drawing board for another couple of years and the status quo will persist.
If you prefer that over SSAD, go ahead and kill SSAD. <u></u><u></u></p>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
This is not about my trying to kill the SSAD. At this point, the Board needs to make a decision, and presumably it will not just blindly rubber-stamp the GNSO recommendations. And iyou are not addressing proposing a solution that is at best several years out
to <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt">
<p class="MsoNormal">2. This would be questions for the implementation phase, but maybe some guidance would be helpful to put people here at ease. I do not think there needs to be authentication for basic SSAD access. The terms currently in place for domain
name registration are fully sufficient for that access level: Validation of format of the data, verification of email address, valid payment method. This would be my personal view.
<br>
<br>
3. As this access level would require significantly lower barriers than full access, fees for this type of requests could be lower as well. For comparison, requests for data from the German trade register cost medium one-digit EUR amounts per request. The added
benefit is that this common type of request could carry a base cost load for the system, allowing lower overall costs for all requests. Only leaving SSAD for personal data would on the other hand drive up costs. The more we include in SSAD, the better the
price structure should be.<u></u><u></u></p>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
OK, so you are proposing a fee-based system for such requests.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt">
<p class="MsoNormal">4. If we do need another PDP (not convinced that we do) this could be pre-determined and targeted. If we all agree now that we want this to happen, debate the specifics before the PDP is launched, the time needed for the actual PDP could
be minimal. <u></u><u></u></p>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
Fine. Adding several more years...<br>
<br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt">
<p class="MsoNormal">5. To the contrary, there are a myrad of advantages: Use of existing infrastructure, lower overall SSAD fees, better protection of registrants, access controls, prevention of harvesting for illicit purposes (SPAM, phishing, etc) , requestor
ID, reduced risk for CPs, no need to build out yet another system for a sub-category of domain names, no data transfer liability issues, etc. The list goes on and on...<br>
<br>
-- <br>
Volker A. Greimann<br>
General Counsel and Policy Manager<br>
<b>KEY-SYSTEMS GMBH</b><br>
<br>
T: +49 6894 9396901<br>
M: +49 6894 9396851<br>
F: +49 6894 9396851<br>
W: <a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/www.key-systems.net/__;!!DOxrgLBm!RmawU_eWcoe7RX3DvV2_0BnjdXdVYP6GXl95shj5pftgywU5ogWBrEplmQeLNWufRcO7hTTq$" target="_blank">
www.key-systems.net</a><br>
<br>
Key-Systems GmbH is a company registered at the local court of Saarbruecken, Germany with the registration no. HR B 18835<br>
CEO: Oliver Fries and Robert Birkner<br>
<br>
Part of the CentralNic Group PLC (LON: CNIC) a company registered in England and Wales with company number 8576358.<br>
<br>
This email and any files transmitted are confidential and intended only for the person(s) directly addressed. If you are not the intended recipient, any use, copying, transmission, distribution, or other forms of dissemination is strictly prohibited. If you
have received this email in error, please notify the sender immediately and permanently delete this email with any files that may be attached.<br>
<br>
<br>
On Thu, Apr 22, 2021 at 8:02 AM Alan Greenberg via Gnso-epdp-team <<a href="mailto:gnso-epdp-team@icann.org" target="_blank">gnso-epdp-team@icann.org</a> > wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36pt">There continues to be discussion regarding using the SSAD as a means
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:12pt;margin-left:36pt">
of "publishing" non-personal data.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36pt">I believe that this discussion is a distraction that takes focus from
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:12pt;margin-left:36pt">
what we should be working on. I say this for the following reason.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36pt">1. The SSAD does not exist, it may never exist, and if the Board does
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36pt">approve it, it will likely take several years to implement (remember
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36pt">we are 2 years into the implementation of Phase 1, and there is no
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:12pt;margin-left:36pt">
centralized hardware/software to design and implement for that).<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36pt">2. Although we specified that anyone may be accredited, it is not at
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36pt">all clear the amount of time it will take, nor what fee might be
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36pt">charged. And unless the system allows accreditation without
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:12pt;margin-left:36pt">
authenticating the identity, this precludes anonymous queries.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36pt">3. We specified that the SSAD must be self-funding and that the users
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36pt">must pay for its operating costs. Are those in favour of using the
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36pt">SSAD for public data publishing proposing fees for such requests, or
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:12pt;margin-left:36pt">
no fees, and if the latter, who will pay for this usage?<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36pt">4. There are multiple details of Phase 2 Recommendation 8 for
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36pt">Contracted Party Authorization that simply make no sense in this
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36pt">case, yet are part of the approved policy. And changing that policy
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:12pt;margin-left:36pt">
requires a PDP.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36pt">5. There does not seem to be any benefit of routing public-data
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36pt">requests through the SSAD with its myriad rules, regulations and
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:12pt;margin-left:36pt">
processes when a vanilla RDAP server will suffice.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:12pt;margin-left:36pt">
Alan<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36pt">_______________________________________________<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36pt">Gnso-epdp-team mailing list<u></u><u></u></p>
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</blockquote>
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