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<div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Dear All,</div>
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<div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Please find the MP3 recording for IGO-INGO Access to Curative Rights Protection Mechanisms Working Group call on Wednesday,</div>
<div><font face="Calibri,sans-serif">10 March 2015 at 1700 UTC at:</font><a href="http://audio.icann.org/gnso/gnso-ingo-group-11mar15-en.mp3" style="font-size: medium;">http://audio.icann.org/gnso/gnso-ingo-group-11mar15-en.mp3</a></div>
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<div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">On page:</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><a href="http://gnso.icann.org/en/group-activities/calendar#mar">http://gnso.icann.org/en/group-activities/calendar#mar</a></div>
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<div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">The recordings and transcriptions of the calls are posted on the GNSO Master Calendar page:</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><a href="http://gnso.icann.org/calendar/">http://gnso.icann.org/calendar/</a></div>
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<div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Attendees: </div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">George Kirikos - Individual</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Petter Rindforth – IPC</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Phil Corwin – BC</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Val Sherman - IPC</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">David Heasley - IPC</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Paul Tattersfiled –Individual</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Jay Chapman – Individual</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Jim Bikoff – IPC</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Kathy Kleiman - NCUC</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">David Maher - RySG</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Imran Ahmed Shah – NCUC</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Gary Campbell – GAC</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Paul Keating - NCUC</div>
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<div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Apologies:</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Kristine Dorrain- Individual</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Mason Cole – RySG</div>
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<div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">ICANN staff:</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Mary Wong</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Steve Chan</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Nathalie Peregrine</div>
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<div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">** Please let me know if your name has been left off the list **</div>
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<div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Mailing list archives:<a href="http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/gnso-igo-ingo-crp/">http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/gnso-igo-ingo-crp/</a></div>
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<div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Wiki page: <a href="https://community.icann.org/x/97rhAg">https://community.icann.org/x/97rhAg</a></div>
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<div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Thank you.</div>
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<div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Kind regards,</div>
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<div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Nathalie</div>
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<div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><b>Adobe Connect chat transcript for Wednesday, 10 March 2015:</b></div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Nathalie Peregrine:Dear all, welcome to the IGO-INGO Curative Rights Protection PDP WG Meeting on the 10th March 2015</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"> George Kirikos:Hi everyone.</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"> Petter Rindforth:Hi George, thanks for your comments</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"> George Kirikos:Hi Petter. How are you today?</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"> val sherman:Hello everyone</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"> George Kirikos:Hi Val. How's it going?</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"> Mary Wong:Yes, thanks George, as always. Petter, if you don't mind, perhaps staff can explain why we first reached out to Mr Corell before the WG gets into the substance of the discussion?</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"> George Kirikos:Hi Mary.</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"> val sherman:Hi George! Doing well -- it's Wednesday:)</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"> George Kirikos:Hopefully the timechange didn't confuse people today. I wonder if anyone showed up an hour ago?</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"> Petter Rindforth:Please do, Mary.</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"> Mary Wong:@George, I hope not ... we didn't get any indication or worried emails so I'm thinking not!</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"> George Kirikos:lol Phil</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"> George Kirikos:Welcome Jay.</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"> Jay Chapman:Hi, George. Hello, everyone.</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"> Nathalie Peregrine:We have Jim Bikoff and David Maher on audio bridge only too</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"> George Kirikos:Hi Kathy.</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"> Kathy:Hi George - and All!</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"> val sherman:David Heasley also on audio bridge</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"> Nathalie Peregrine:Noted, thank you Val!</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"> Nathalie Peregrine:Gary Campbell has just joined the call</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"> Nathalie Peregrine:Imran Ahmed Shah has joined the call</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"> Mary Wong:@George, Sec 29 does say "other disputes of a private law character" which would cover situations other than contracts.</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"> George Kirikos:But you missed the last part, Mary, "to which the UN is a party."</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"> Mary Wong:Right, a party to a dispute or to a contract</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"> George Kirikos:We know this is an incorrect interpretation, given the UNIFEM case.</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"> George Kirikos:If that was the right interpretation, then they could simply compel them at present to undergo such an arbitration.</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"> Nathalie Peregrine:Paul Keating has joined the call</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"> Kathy:Someone in email mentioned it (George I think) but UN is of course registered as a trademark.</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"> Paul Keating:Sorry I am late.</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"> Kathy:In the US, it is registered multiple times as a design mark, but also as a text mark -- Reg. Serial No. 77273648</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"> Paul Keating:Not really. I was counsel in Parvi.org and sued the City of Paris following a UDRP. The Texas court had no difficulty in granting a judgment in favor of the domain registrant.</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"> George Kirikos:WIPO's list of cases that went to court
<a href="http://www.wipo.int/amc/en/domains/challenged/(not">http://www.wipo.int/amc/en/domains/challenged/(not</a> complete)</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"> George Kirikos:We know the World Bank brought a UDRP, etc.</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"> George Kirikos:(sorry for the coughing noise -- forgot to mute myself)</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"> Paul Keating:Pere, I am sorry but I completely disagree with his "conclusions" Immunity can be waived. This is clear from decades of cases in many jurisdicdtions. See in Texas teh case of Parvi.org</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"> George Kirikos:"On the contrary, their presence and their acronyms are so obvious that nobody can doubt the seriousness...." --- he's talking rainbows and unicorns here...</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"> George Kirikos:Do a Google search for "united nations scandals", and it's not always rainbows and unicorns.</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"> Paul Keating:Mary, Can we request funding from ICANN to hire competent counsel to give an opinion we can rely upon?</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"> Paul Keating:@Perre, why should we rely upon the IGOs to give us legal advice?</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"> George Kirikos:Are any of the US counsel here familiar with any US Supreme Court precedents, that discuss the scope of immunity, in the same manner as the Canadian Supreme Court case I referenced on the list?</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"> George Kirikos:I'm guessing it's very different from country to country, as the Supreme Court of Canada mentioned, as it depends on what immunities that nation granted (and there's no 'international law' in that
regard).</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"> Mary Wong:@George, that's exactly it</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"> Paul Keating:Question: In teh context of a UDRP in which an IGO is the complainant, does the IGO's complaint and consent to a "Mutual Jurisdiction" act to waive the IGO's claims as to immunity?</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"> George Kirikos:If the GAC is asking us to *make* new law, then that really is beyond our scope. We're not a replacement for international treaties, etc.</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"> George Kirikos:Phil has his hand up.</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"> Paul Keating:This question arises ONLY when teh domain registrant files litigation or when the IGO is teh domain registrant and loses.</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"> George Kirikos:We talk about 'immunity' as if it's an absolute, which we know is not correct.</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"> George Kirikos:If an IGO has to defend a domain name dispute, it's not as though the courts will interfere with the IGO's mission, internal affairs, etc.</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"> Kathy: It would be good if the GAC's discussion on this issue could include not only Mason, but also our co-chairs (with notice to the whole of the WG)</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"> Mary Wong:@George, that too is true :) Modern int'l law tends to view sovereign immunity as a "restricted" rather than absolute concept, which means it is defined by national law recognition of the concept.</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"> George Kirikos:Perhaps we should start talking about 'functional immunity' (taken from the Supreme Court of Canada ruling), to narrow things further, instead of saying "sovereign immunity"?</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"> Jay Chapman:Phil, here's one of those - a Columbia Law Review article from October, 2010 (<a href="http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1692856">http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1692856</a>),
provides background & guidance on a general S.I. principle in the US, namely, when a state actor voluntarily / proactively participates in conduct designed to deprive someone else of their property via litigation (“litigation conduct”), such conduct makes
itself a party to a "cause," and thereby the state effectively waives S.I. (Referencing Lapides v. Bd. of Regents of the Univ. Sys. of Ga., 535 U.S. 613, 620 (2002).) “Lapides thus rests on the idea that, although a bar on suing states is inherent in the
Constitution, the advocates for state immunity did not intend for a state or an arm of the state to wield its immunity ‘to achieve unfair tactical advantages’.”</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"> Mary Wong:Should we get a small group of volunteers to work on the questions? Staff will start a draft but it does need WG input and sign off.</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"> Kathy:@Jay, interesting article. Who is the academic who wrote it? Tx!</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"> George Kirikos:It'd be nice if they were participating in the WG itself.</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"> Paul Keating:I Agree completely with Phil.</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"> Jay Chapman:@Kathy - Tejas N. Narechania Columbia University - Law School</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"> George Kirikos:Important point I noticed on page 4.</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"> David Maher (GNSO - RySG):a useful primer on US - foreign sovereign immunity at:<a href="http://www.dgslaw.com/images/materials/TMCN_PrimerForeignSovereignImmunity.pdf">http://www.dgslaw.com/images/materials/TMCN_PrimerForeignSovereignImmunity.pdf</a> </div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"> Kathy:@Jay and mary: I wonder if Prof Narechania might be willing to help advise us?</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"> Mary Wong:@Jay, if it's the Narechania article you are citing, do note that it talks about state-federal relationships within the US (domestic) rathan than sov immunity as an international concept</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"> Mary Wong:Much of the US law review literature is about state-federal claims.</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"> Jay Chapman:Yes, Mary. I said "in the US." Should have said "within the US". Thank you</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"> George Kirikos:Are we going to finish the UDRP/URS comparison today, before we go?</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"> George Kirikos:(instead of finishing early)</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"> Paul Keating:@Mary, I do not read it as you do. It discusses the US Statute on soverign immunity in general</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"> Mary Wong:@Paul, thanks - yes it does and it's helpful to that extent.</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"> Mary Wong:There are US statutes specifically discussing sov imm</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"> Paul Keating:@Mary, in the US, sov. imm is per federal statute (FSIA) located at 28 USC §§ 1330 et seq.</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"> Philip Corwin:Thanks for the links, Jay and David. Good stuff. And thanks as always to George for all his finds.</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"> Mary Wong:There are several law review articles that discusss that statute - we can look again at them, of course.</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"> Jay Chapman:Yes, looking forward to reading the case Geoge linked and the primer David added.</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"> Jay Chapman:Thank you both</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"> George Kirikos:I didn't have any specific comments.</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"> George Kirikos:(on the URS/UDRP)</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"> Jay Chapman:@Kathy, seems like someone who might be able to help!</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"> Jay Chapman:(sorry, Kathy, was referring to Prof Narechania being someone who might be able to help.)</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"> Kathy:@Jay, great, that makes sense. Tx!</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"> Mary Wong:@Phil, yes - that's why the Council asked this WG to consider the issue (recognizing that UDRP is CP but URS is not)</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"> Mary Wong:@Jay @Kathy - what do you think we should ask Prof Narechania? I can reach out to him and know several faculty members at Columbia.</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"> George Kirikos:I think the Intellectual Property Constituency probably would agree that the scope of immunity is limited.</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"> George Kirikos:Otherwise, IGOs would be able to ask that a new dispute resolution procedure be created so that IGOs could take US TM holders to a a binding international arbitration.</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"> George Kirikos:(i.e. and not allow US TM-holders to defend their rights in US courts)</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"> Mary Wong:All, for background on why our WG was asked to do this, please see the Issue Report that set out our tasks.</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"> George Kirikos:Have a nice day, everybody.</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"> Kathy:That's nice comments from RySG!</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"> val sherman::) that's great</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"> Kathy:Bye All</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"> Philip Corwin:Bye all</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"> val sherman:Thanks All!</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"> Jay Chapman:Bye. Thank you!</div>
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