<html xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:m="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"><head><meta http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=utf-8"><meta name=Generator content="Microsoft Word 15 (filtered medium)"><!--[if !mso]><style>v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
.shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
</style><![endif]--><style><!--
/* Font Definitions */
@font-face
{font-family:"Cambria Math";
panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Calibri;
panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}
/* Style Definitions */
p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
{margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;}
a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:purple;
text-decoration:underline;}
tt
{mso-style-priority:99;
font-family:"Courier New";}
p.msonormal0, li.msonormal0, div.msonormal0
{mso-style-name:msonormal;
mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
margin-right:0in;
mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:0in;
font-size:9.0pt;
font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;}
span.EmailStyle21
{mso-style-type:personal-reply;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;
color:windowtext;}
.MsoChpDefault
{mso-style-type:export-only;
font-size:10.0pt;}
@page WordSection1
{size:8.5in 11.0in;
margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;}
div.WordSection1
{page:WordSection1;}
--></style><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapedefaults v:ext="edit" spidmax="1026" />
</xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapelayout v:ext="edit">
<o:idmap v:ext="edit" data="1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt'>Thanks Stephane.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt'>Chuck<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><a name="_MailEndCompose"><span style='font-size:11.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></a></p><span style='mso-bookmark:_MailEndCompose'></span><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:11.0pt'> Stephane Hankins [mailto:shankins@icrc.org] <br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, August 28, 2017 7:32 AM<br><b>To:</b> gregshatanipc@gmail.com; consult@cgomes.com<br><b>Cc:</b> Jorge.Cancio@bakom.admin.ch; gnso-igo-ingo@icann.org; Charlotte Lindsey Curtet <clindsey@icrc.org><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Gnso-igo-ingo] FOR INFORMATION: Notes on certain points raised during the 17 August call of the reconvened Working Group on Red Cross protections<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>Dear Chuck, dear all,</span> <br><br><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>(1) We can confirm that the rules/prohibitions foreseen under Article 44, Par. 1 of the first Geneva Convention, as quoted by Jorge below, extend to <i>both</i> the use of the emblems per se and of the <b>words (or designations</b> <b>or names)</b> "Red Cross", "Red Crescent" and Red Lion and Sun". </span><br><br><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>Reference may also be made to </span><br><br><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>- the subsequent paragraph of Article 44 (Paragraph 2) of the first Geneva Convention, which confirms the prerogative of National Red Cross and Red Crescent Societies to make use of the<b> name </b>"Red Cross" ("Red Crescent", "Red Lion and Sun") for their own activities carried out in peacetime or in times of armed conflict:</span> <br><br><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>- Article 53 of the same first Geneva Convention which defines prohibitions on the use of the emblem <i>or</i> the designation "Red Cross" (or "Geneva Cross" - although as you will realise we did not add this designation to the list of words or strings to be protected from registration, as the latter is no longer in use and in order to avoid extending the list or strings to be reserved).</span> <br><br><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>Without wanting to enter into a debate on semantics, the Oxford Dictionary defines the nown "designation" as<i> "an official name, description, or title"</i> - not a design or figurative symbol. The intention of the Convention and of its drafters was to protect both the emblems (figurative design or symbols), as well as the words. </span><br><br><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>(2) We are in the process of compiling extracts from national legislation confirming:</span> <br><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>- the prohibitions on the use of the words and designations in line with the provisions of the 1949 Geneva Conventions and their Additional Protocol of 2005 (in addition to the emblems and symbols); as well as</span> <br><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>- the entitlement of the respective components of the International Red Cross and Red Crescent Movement (including the National Red Cross and Red Crescent Societies) to make use of the words / designations for indicative (identification) purposes at all times.</span> <br><br><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>Kind regards,</span> <br><br><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>Stéphane</span> <br><br><br><br><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#5F5F5F'>From: </span><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'><<a href="mailto:Jorge.Cancio@bakom.admin.ch">Jorge.Cancio@bakom.admin.ch</a>></span> <br><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#5F5F5F'>To: </span><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'><<a href="mailto:Jorge.Cancio@bakom.admin.ch">Jorge.Cancio@bakom.admin.ch</a>>, <<a href="mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com">gregshatanipc@gmail.com</a>>, <<a href="mailto:consult@cgomes.com">consult@cgomes.com</a>></span> <br><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#5F5F5F'>Cc: </span><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'><a href="mailto:gnso-igo-ingo@icann.org">gnso-igo-ingo@icann.org</a></span> <br><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#5F5F5F'>Date: </span><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>25.08.2017 22:14</span> <br><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#5F5F5F'>Subject: </span><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>Re: [Gnso-igo-ingo] FOR INFORMATION: Notes on certain points raisedduring the 17 August call of the reconvened Working Group onRed Cross protections</span> <br><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#5F5F5F'>Sent by: </span><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'><a href="mailto:gnso-igo-ingo-bounces@icann.org">gnso-igo-ingo-bounces@icann.org</a></span> <span style='font-size:11.0pt'><o:p></o:p></span></p><div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><hr size=2 width="100%" noshade style='color:#A0A0A0' align=center></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br><br><br><tt>Well actually the US Criminal Code says " or the words “Red Cross” or “Geneva Cross” or any combination of these words—"</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>Jorge</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br></span><tt>________________________________</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br></span><tt>Von: <a href="mailto:Jorge.Cancio@bakom.admin.ch">Jorge.Cancio@bakom.admin.ch</a> <<a href="mailto:Jorge.Cancio@bakom.admin.ch">Jorge.Cancio@bakom.admin.ch</a>></tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>Datum: 25. August 2017 um 22:12:31 MESZ</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>An: <a href="mailto:consult@cgomes.com">consult@cgomes.com</a> <<a href="mailto:consult@cgomes.com">consult@cgomes.com</a>>, <a href="mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com">gregshatanipc@gmail.com</a> <<a href="mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com">gregshatanipc@gmail.com</a>></tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>Cc: <a href="mailto:gnso-igo-ingo@icann.org">gnso-igo-ingo@icann.org</a> <<a href="mailto:gnso-igo-ingo@icann.org">gnso-igo-ingo@icann.org</a>></tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>Betreff: Re: [Gnso-igo-ingo] FOR INFORMATION: Notes on certain points raisedduring the 17 August call of the reconvened Working Group onRed Cross protections</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br></span><tt>Dear Chuck</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>It is in the plain language quoted of art. 44: "and the words Red Cross or Geneva Cross".</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>Also USC 18 S 706 says "and the words"</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br></span><tt>or is it sth else you are looking for?</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>Jorge</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br><br></span><tt>________________________________</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br></span><tt>Von: Chuck <<a href="mailto:consult@cgomes.com">consult@cgomes.com</a>></tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>Datum: 25. August 2017 um 22:08:16 MESZ</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>An: <a href="mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com">gregshatanipc@gmail.com</a> <<a href="mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com">gregshatanipc@gmail.com</a>>, Cancio Jorge BAKOM <<a href="mailto:Jorge.Cancio@bakom.admin.ch">Jorge.Cancio@bakom.admin.ch</a>></tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>Cc: <a href="mailto:gnso-igo-ingo@icann.org">gnso-igo-ingo@icann.org</a> <<a href="mailto:gnso-igo-ingo@icann.org">gnso-igo-ingo@icann.org</a>></tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>Betreff: RE: [Gnso-igo-ingo] FOR INFORMATION: Notes on certain points raisedduring the 17 August call of the reconvened Working Group onRed Cross protections</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br></span><tt>Thanks Jorge but please help me see where 'words' are mentioned.</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br></span><tt>Chuck</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br></span><tt>-----Original Message-----</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>From: <a href="mailto:Jorge.Cancio@bakom.admin.ch">Jorge.Cancio@bakom.admin.ch</a> [</tt><a href="mailto:Jorge.Cancio@bakom.admin.ch"><tt>mailto:Jorge.Cancio@bakom.admin.ch</tt></a><tt>]</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>Sent: Friday, August 25, 2017 1:02 PM</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>To: <a href="mailto:consult@cgomes.com">consult@cgomes.com</a>; <a href="mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com">gregshatanipc@gmail.com</a></tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>Cc: <a href="mailto:gnso-igo-ingo@icann.org">gnso-igo-ingo@icann.org</a></tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>Subject: Re: [Gnso-igo-ingo] FOR INFORMATION: Notes on certain points</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>raisedduring the 17 August call of the reconvened Working Group onRed Cross</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>protections</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br></span><tt>Sorry for coming back again, but on page 3 of the ICRC Memo, footnote 2,</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>article 44 of the first Geneva Convention is quoted wherein the protection</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>of the "words" themselves is warranted:</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br><br><br></span><tt>2 The first Geneva Convention for the Amelioration of the Condition of the</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>Wounded and Sick in Armed Forces in the Field of 12 August 1949 provides</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>equal protection to the emblems of the red cross, red crescent and red lion</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>and sun. Article 44 provides that "[...] the emblem of the red cross on a</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>white ground and the words "Red Cross, or "Geneva Cross" may not be</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>employed, either in time of peace or in time of war, except to indicate or</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>to protect the medical units and establishments, the personnel and material</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>protected by the present Convention and other Conventions dealing with</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>similar matters. The same shall apply to the other emblems mentioned in</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>Article 38, paragraph 2, in respect of the countries that use them [the red</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>crescent, the red lion and sun]".</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br></span><tt>Best</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br></span><tt>Jorge</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br><br></span><tt>________________________________</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br></span><tt>Von: Greg Shatan <<a href="mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com">gregshatanipc@gmail.com</a>></tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>Datum: 25. August 2017 um 20:47:37 MESZ</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>An: Chuck <<a href="mailto:consult@cgomes.com">consult@cgomes.com</a>></tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>Cc: <a href="mailto:gnso-igo-ingo@icann.org">gnso-igo-ingo@icann.org</a> <<a href="mailto:gnso-igo-ingo@icann.org">gnso-igo-ingo@icann.org</a>></tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>Betreff: Re: [Gnso-igo-ingo] FOR INFORMATION: Notes on certain points</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>raisedduring the 17 August call of the reconvened Working Group onRed Cross</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>protections</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br></span><tt>I believe some have argued that the term "designation" refers to the names</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>"Red Cross", etc.</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br></span><tt>However it is significant that Art. 53 of the first Geneva Convention,</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>quoted by Christopher, refers to "the emblem or the designation " Red Cross</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>" or " Geneva Cross "." After some research, it appears fairly clear that</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>"Geneva Cross" is another name for the "red cross on a white ground" symbol,</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>and is NOT used as a name or words referring to the Red Cross organizations.</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>In other words, there is no Geneva Cross name.</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br></span><tt>Thus, it seems to make sense that both "emblem" and "designation" refer to</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>the symbols and not to the words. This is consistent with Christopher's</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>explanation as well.</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br></span><tt>Greg</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br></span><tt>On Fri, Aug 25, 2017 at 1:00 PM, Chuck</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt><consult@cgomes.com<</tt><a href="mailto:consult@cgomes.com"><tt>mailto:consult@cgomes.com</tt></a><tt>>> wrote:</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>Thanks very much Chris. Am I correct then in concluding that 'designation'</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>is just another form of the emblem (i.e., symbol)? Is there no language in</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>any of the treaties or laws that mentions the organization names? If so, on</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>what legal basis can we use for protecting the names?</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br></span><tt>Note that I am not opposed to protecting the names but am just trying to</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>find a legal basis if there is one.</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br></span><tt>Chuck</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br></span><tt>From: christopher.lamb17@gmail.com<</tt><a href="mailto:christopher.lamb17@gmail.com"><tt>mailto:christopher.lamb17@gmail.com</tt></a><tt>></tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>[</tt><a href="mailto:christopher.lamb17@gmail.com"><tt>mailto:christopher.lamb17@gmail.com</tt></a><tt><</tt><a href="mailto:christopher.lamb17@gmail.com"><tt>mailto:christopher.lamb17@gmail.com</tt></a><tt>>]</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>Sent: Friday, August 25, 2017 9:11 AM</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>To: Chuck <consult@cgomes.com<</tt><a href="mailto:consult@cgomes.com"><tt>mailto:consult@cgomes.com</tt></a><tt>>>; 'Mary Wong'</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt><mary.wong@icann.org<</tt><a href="mailto:mary.wong@icann.org"><tt>mailto:mary.wong@icann.org</tt></a><tt>>>;</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>gnso-igo-ingo@icann.org<</tt><a href="mailto:gnso-igo-ingo@icann.org"><tt>mailto:gnso-igo-ingo@icann.org</tt></a><tt>></tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br></span><tt>Subject: Re: [Gnso-igo-ingo] FOR INFORMATION: Notes on certain points</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>raisedduring the 17 August call of the reconvened Working Group onRed Cross</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>protections</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br></span><tt>Dear Chuck,</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br></span><tt>The terms you mention are, for the purposes of the Geneva Conventions,</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>explained in the first and third paragraphs of Article 53 of the First</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>Geneva Convention 1949, as follows:</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br></span><tt>"Art. 53. The use by individuals, societies, firms or companies either</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>public or private, other than those entitled thereto under the present</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>Convention, of the emblem or the designation " Red Cross " or " Geneva Cross</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>" or any sign or designation constituting an imitation thereof, whatever the</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>object of such use, and irrespective of the date of its adoption, shall be</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>prohibited at all times.</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>...</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br></span><tt>Nevertheless, such High Contracting Parties as were not party to the Geneva</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>Convention of 27 July 1929, may grant to prior users of the emblems,</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>designations, signs or marks designated in the first paragraph, a time limit</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>not to exceed three years from the coming into force of the present</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>Convention to discontinue such use provided that the said use shall not be</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>such as would appear, in time of war, to confer the protection of the</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>Convention."</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br></span><tt>So, the designation is the formal name of the emblem, provided for it by the</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>treaty. I hope this helps.</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br></span><tt>Chris</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br><br></span><tt>From: Chuck</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>Sent: Friday, August 25, 2017 23:21</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>To: 'Mary Wong' ; gnso-igo-ingo@icann.org<</tt><a href="mailto:gnso-igo-ingo@icann.org"><tt>mailto:gnso-igo-ingo@icann.org</tt></a><tt>></tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>Subject: Re: [Gnso-igo-ingo] FOR INFORMATION: Notes on certain points</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>raisedduring the 17 August call of the reconvened Working Group onRed Cross</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>protections</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br></span><tt>Thanks Mary. I have some questions for the legal experts, especially those</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>familiar with terminology used in international treaties.</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br></span><tt>The following terminology is used repeatedly in the applicable laws:</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>"distinctive emblems and their designations". I understand 'emblems' to</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>mean the actual symbols but what do 'designations' mean? In other words,</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>what is a designation of one of the emblems? One thing that is confusing to</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>me is that all the laws/treaties clearly protect the emblems. How do they</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>apply to the names themselves?</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br></span><tt>Chuck</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br><br></span><tt>From:</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>gnso-igo-ingo-bounces@icann.org<</tt><a href="mailto:gnso-igo-ingo-bounces@icann.org"><tt>mailto:gnso-igo-ingo-bounces@icann.org</tt></a><tt>></tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>[</tt><a href="mailto:gnso-igo-ingo-bounces@icann.org"><tt>mailto:gnso-igo-ingo-bounces@icann.org</tt></a><tt>] On Behalf Of Mary Wong</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2017 2:52 PM</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>To: gnso-igo-ingo@icann.org<</tt><a href="mailto:gnso-igo-ingo@icann.org"><tt>mailto:gnso-igo-ingo@icann.org</tt></a><tt>></tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>Subject: [Gnso-igo-ingo] FOR INFORMATION: Notes on certain points raised</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>during the 17 August call of the reconvened Working Group on Red Cross</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>protections</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br></span><tt>Dear all,</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br></span><tt>Following from the call last Thursday (17 August), staff has attempted to</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>put together a summary of the major questions and points (including the</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>relevant text of the Geneva Conventions cited) that were raised on the call.</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>The summary is attached. If you wish to provide comments or raise further</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>questions, please do so directly in the identical Google Doc version here:</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><a href="https://docs.google.com/document/d/1VftetlaXmEW1HqNVv3EYQi4x2VtKX6eja0VBizM1"><tt>https://docs.google.com/document/d/1VftetlaXmEW1HqNVv3EYQi4x2VtKX6eja0VBizM1</tt></a><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>JAc/edit?usp=sharing.</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br></span><tt>Please note that the summary was intentionally kept as brief as possible, so</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>it does not go into detail about the international law basis. This is</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>further explored in the submissions that were provided by the Red Cross</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>representatives, and in Annex A of the Briefing Document prepared for the</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>facilitated discussions that took place at ICANN58 in March this year</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>(please refer to the wiki page for this Working Group here for the links:</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><a href="https://community.icann.org/x/-g8hB"><tt>https://community.icann.org/x/-g8hB</tt></a><tt>).</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br></span><tt>We hope the summary is helpful to your further deliberations.</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br></span><tt>Thanks and cheers</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>Mary</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br></span><tt>From:</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt><gnso-igo-ingo-bounces@icann.org<</tt><a href="mailto:gnso-igo-ingo-bounces@icann.org"><tt>mailto:gnso-igo-ingo-bounces@icann.org</tt></a><tt>>> on</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>behalf of Julie Bisland</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt><julie.bisland@icann.org<</tt><a href="mailto:julie.bisland@icann.org"><tt>mailto:julie.bisland@icann.org</tt></a><tt>>></tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>Date: Thursday, August 17, 2017 at 12:06</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>To: "gnso-igo-ingo@icann.org<</tt><a href="mailto:gnso-igo-ingo@icann.org"><tt>mailto:gnso-igo-ingo@icann.org</tt></a><tt>>"</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt><gnso-igo-ingo@icann.org<</tt><a href="mailto:gnso-igo-ingo@icann.org"><tt>mailto:gnso-igo-ingo@icann.org</tt></a><tt>>></tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>Cc: "gnso-secs@icann.org<</tt><a href="mailto:gnso-secs@icann.org"><tt>mailto:gnso-secs@icann.org</tt></a><tt>>"</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt><gnso-secs@icann.org<</tt><a href="mailto:gnso-secs@icann.org"><tt>mailto:gnso-secs@icann.org</tt></a><tt>>></tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>Subject: [Gnso-igo-ingo] Recordings, Attendance & AC Chat for IGO-INGO</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>Protections in all gTLDS PDP WG on Red Cross Names on 17 August 2017 at</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>13:00 UTC</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br><br></span><tt>Dear all,</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br><br><br></span><tt>Please find the attendance attached, and the mp3, Adobe Connect recording</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>and AC Chat below for the reconvened IGO-INGO Protections in all gTLDs PDP</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>Working Group on Red Cross Names held on Thursday, 17 August 2017 at 13:00</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>UTC.</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br><br><br></span><tt>Mp3: </tt><a href="http://audio.icann.org/gnso/gnso-igo-ingo-17aug17-en.mp3"><tt>http://audio.icann.org/gnso/gnso-igo-ingo-17aug17-en.mp3</tt></a><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br><br></span><tt>AC recording:</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><a href="https://participate.icann.org/p59acngik1a/"><tt>https://participate.icann.org/p59acngik1a/</tt></a><tt><</tt><a href="https://participate.icann.org/p59"><tt>https://participate.icann.org/p59</tt></a><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>acngik1a/?OWASP_CSRFTOKEN=92ef84797cbc0a40edc01adc638682d4b8e9db4caddb88df19</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>39c4dc577b4caa></tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br><br></span><tt>The recordings and transcriptions of the calls are posted on the GNSO Master</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>Calendar page:</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><a href="http://gnso.icann.org/en/group-activities/calendar"><tt>http://gnso.icann.org/en/group-activities/calendar</tt></a><tt>[gnso.icann.org]<</tt><a href="https://u/"><tt>https://u</tt></a><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>rldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__gnso.icann.org_en_group-2Dactivit</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>ies_calendar&d=DwMFAg&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=DJ69mA</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>e-idEhpAMF1nu2x6c2w3xl7xb5cjS_7sB4h6Y&m=gYLy6cwOztaoXKyA01768242GhD7ZveWWPqN</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>gIU4b-w&s=2r8FnPPkw7aiaErXSNUyXPL0JKwOtSPiUIvd9h6eur0&e=></tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br><br><br></span><tt>Mailing list archive: </tt><a href="http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/gnso-igo-ingo/"><tt>http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/gnso-igo-ingo/</tt></a><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br><br><br></span><tt>Agenda Wiki page:</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><a href="https://community.icann.org/x/-g8hB"><tt>https://community.icann.org/x/-g8hB</tt></a><tt>[community.icann.org]<</tt><a href="https://urldefense/"><tt>https://urldefense</tt></a><tt>.</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__community.icann.org_x_-2Dg8hB&d=DwMFAg&c=F</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>mY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=DJ69mAe-idEhpAMF1nu2x6c2w3xl7xb</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>5cjS_7sB4h6Y&m=gYLy6cwOztaoXKyA01768242GhD7ZveWWPqNgIU4b-w&s=Rrt3vuqBgVwqEt0</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>fn8JPv4WnPwYsV3FXJTC3VCs1jyE&e=></tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br><br><br></span><tt>** Please let me know if your name has been left off the list **</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br><br><br></span><tt>Thank you.</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br></span><tt>Kind regards,</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br><br><br></span><tt>Julie</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br></span><tt>---------------</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br><br><br></span><tt>Adobe Connect chat transcript for 17 August 2017</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br></span><tt> Julie Bisland:Welcome to the Reconvened IGO INGO PDP Working Group call on</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>Red Cross Names on Thursday, 17 August 2017 at 13:00 UTC.</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br></span><tt> Julie Bisland:Agenda wiki page:</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><a href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__community.icann.org_x_-"><tt>https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__community.icann.org_x_-</tt></a><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>2Dg8hB&d=DwIFaQ&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=QiF-05YzARos</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>RvTYd84AB_UYInlydmFcjNmBM5XgySw&m=k1wo94sSUbWaoqtfbcQCj5rK4YOaypeUgXO53UhSvC</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>k&s=I_16BY_qfDXIQ9fNax5rRL2xH8tGd-iAP7ADs611zJI&e=</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br></span><tt> Julie Bisland:looking for the beeping</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br></span><tt> Heather Forrest:Beeping noise?</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br></span><tt> Julie Bisland:Welcome Ken Stubbs :)</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br></span><tt> Julie Bisland:Welcome Giacomo Mazzone</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br></span><tt> ken stubbs:who is speaking ?</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br></span><tt> Heather Forrest:It's not clear to me how protection of "Red Cross", etc</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>and symbols covers the national society names</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br></span><tt> ken stubbs:i have a question after ther speakers comments are over.</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br></span><tt> Thomas Rickert, WG Chair:Noted, Ken!</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br></span><tt> Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland):Thanks to Stephane for the explanations!</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br></span><tt> Greg Shatan:I second Heather's question.</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br></span><tt> Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland):Apart from change in the law, there is also</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>the possibility that the PDP WG was not fully aware of the legal basis - as</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>Thomas is hinting, I feel</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br></span><tt> Heather Forrest:So back to my earlier chat comment - it's not clear to me</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>how the national society names fit here in the Geneva Convention</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br></span><tt> Greg Shatan:We are still not "fully aware" of the legal basis, if any, for</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>this request.</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br></span><tt> Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland):I feel that Stephane has explained it quite</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>well...</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br></span><tt> Greg Shatan:no, sorry, he talked around the specific issue, hence the</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>question.</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br></span><tt> Chuck Gomes:My understanding is that staff was going to provide the WG</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>with the legal basis for the national society names. Is that correct? If</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>not, I think that would be a good action item before our next meeting.</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br></span><tt>Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland):As Stephane apparently is not on the adobe</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>maybe the question could be read aloud and/or circulated in writing</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br></span><tt> Mary Wong:@Chuck, by circulating the Red Cross' position paper and the</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>Briefing Document that was used in Copenhagen (which was prepared by staff</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>and Bruce Tonkin), this group can fully discusss that question. We didn't</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>feel it's our place (as staff) to draw legal conclusions specifically.</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br></span><tt> Chuck Gomes:@ Mary: You don't need to draw legal conclusions but you could</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>summarize the legal basis for protection of the national names.</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br></span><tt> ken stubbs:your talking over each other</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br></span><tt> Mary Wong:@Chuck, understood - but note that the Geneva Conventions and</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>the Protocols do not specifically mention the National Society names, or</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>what specific names associaed with the Red Cross are intended by use of the</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>terms "emblem" and "designations" therein. Hence, we felt it was for the WG</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>- with the assistance of the RC reps - to clarify what, exactly, is the</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>scope of the law as a result (especially in the DNS).</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br></span><tt> Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland):@Mary: could you circulate the conclusions</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>of the facilitated dialogue of Copenhagen as well as the relevant Board</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>Resolution? thanks</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br></span><tt> Mary Wong:@Jorge, of course - hang on just a moment.</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br></span><tt> Thomas Rickert, WG Chair:The use by individuals, societies, firms or</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>companies either public or private, other than those entitled thereto under</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>the present Convention, of the emblem or the designation "Red Cross" or</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>"Geneva Cross", or any sign or designation constituting an imitation</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>thereof, whatever the object of such use, and irrespective of the date of</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>its adoption, shall be prohibited at all times.By reason of the tribute paid</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>to Switzerland by the adoption of the reversed Federal colours, and of the</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>confusion which may arise between the arms of Switzerland and the</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>distinctive emblem of the Convention, the use by private individuals,</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>societies or firms, of the arms of the Swiss Confederation, or of marks</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>constituting an imitation thereof, whether as trademarks or commercial</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>marks, or as parts of such marks, or for a purpose contrary to commercial</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>honesty, or in circumstances capable of wounding Swiss national sentiment,</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>shall be prohibited at all times.Nevertheless, such High Contracting Parties</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>as were not party to the Geneva</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br></span><tt> Thomas Rickert, WG Chair:That is the part of the Geneva Convention that in</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>my view is relevant for this.</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br></span><tt> giacomo mazzone:Jorge you mean this: (2) Review of briefing paper from</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>Copenhagen facilitated discussion</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>(</tt><a href="http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/gnso-igo-ingo/2017-July/000046.html"><tt>http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/gnso-igo-ingo/2017-July/000046.html</tt></a><tt>)</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br></span><tt> Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland):I meant the conclusions drwan by Bruce</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>Tonkin from the facilitated discussion</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br></span><tt> Heather Forrest:+1 Greg - it seems to me that the lack of clarity on legal</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>basis is exactly why we're here now (to answer Ken's question that started</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>this discussion)</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br></span><tt> Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland):the Board Resolution is here:</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><a href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.icann.org_resources"><tt>https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.icann.org_resources</tt></a><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>_board-2Dmaterial_resolutions-2D2017-2D03-2D16-2Den-232.e.i&d=DwIFaQ&c=FmY1u</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=QiF-05YzARosRvTYd84AB_UYInlydmFcjNm</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>BM5XgySw&m=k1wo94sSUbWaoqtfbcQCj5rK4YOaypeUgXO53UhSvCk&s=rKKnEHJ1PqpyngYHDII</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>thQ4ae8EPxlaAFXESSak4X7o&e=</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br></span><tt> Thomas Rickert, WG Chair:What I pasted here is Article 53</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br></span><tt> Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland):Both the Board Resolution and the</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>conclusions of the facilitated discussion highlighted both the legal basis</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>and the public policy considerations</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br></span><tt> Greg Shatan:We don't need an explicit reference to domain names to find a</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>legal basis.</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br></span><tt> Greg Shatan:I thought we were looking at "rights protections." If we are</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>not talking about legal rights, what kind of rights are we talking about?</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br></span><tt> Alan Greenberg:We (ICANN and the GNSO) have sufficuent major issues to</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>look at that we need to get this done quickly and move on.</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br></span><tt> Greg Shatan:Jorge, can you provide more specific citations, please.</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br></span><tt> Greg Shatan:Alan, I agree with the concern regarding bandwidth. You and I</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>are in many of the same groups. But that doesn't support any particular</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>conclusion.</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br></span><tt> Greg Shatan:One could conclude that it takes many pages of verbiage,</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>because there is no clear and succinct statement that can be made to show a</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>basis for the claimed right for which protections are being requested.</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br></span><tt> Mary Wong:@Jorge, the links to the Board resolution (which you also</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>posted, thanks) and the GNSO Council resolution have been pasted in the</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>Notes pod. Bruce's high level summary was in an email to the IGO-RC</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>discussion group, dated 13 March:</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><a href="http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/discussion-igo-rc/2017-March/000108.html"><tt>http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/discussion-igo-rc/2017-March/000108.html</tt></a><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br></span><tt> Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland):@Greg: I hope Mary may find the</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>conclusion/summary of the facilitated dialogue. As for the Board Resolution</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>this part is relevant: "(3) In considering the Board's request, the Council</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>is requested to duly take into account these factors and the public policy</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>advice to reserve the finite list of names of the Red Cross and Red Crescent</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>National Societies, as recognized within the International Red Cross and Red</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>Crescent Movement, in all gTLDs."</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br></span><tt> Heather Forrest:+1 Chuck - basis in law had significant impacts on the</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>recommendations of the Reserved Names WG in 2007</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br></span><tt> Greg Shatan:Jorge, what "factors" is the quoted language referring to? The</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>quoted language provides no support for any particular conclusions.</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br></span><tt> Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland):@Mary: I feel you found the summary about</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>IGOs - not the one on ICRC</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br></span><tt> Mary Wong:@Chuck, @Thomas, I've pasted the factors that the discussion</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>group, Board and Council considered in the Notes pod.</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br></span><tt> Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland):"factors" refers I guess to the preceding</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>parts of the Resolution, where legal basis and GAC Advice etc. are mentioned</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br></span><tt> Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland):sorry no sound</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br></span><tt> Greg Shatan:Then I guess that is what we should be looking at, to see what</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>they've said about legal basis.</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br></span><tt> Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland):audio problems, sorry!</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br></span><tt> Julie Bisland:would you like our operator to dial out to you?</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br></span><tt> Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland):I'm ready I think</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br></span><tt> Julie Bisland:yes, I see you have your speaker on now. Excellent!</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br></span><tt> Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland):the Board Resolution mentions the following</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>public policy arguments included in GAC Advice: "and the global public</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>policy considerations in the protections of the identifiers of the</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>respective Red Cross and Red Crescent organizations from forms of misuse in</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>the domain name system, including from fraud and embezzlement in times of</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>humanitarian crises."</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br></span><tt> Greg Shatan:Public policy is not a legal basis.</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br></span><tt> Mary Wong:@Jorge, my apologies (re the wrong message from Bruce). I cannot</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>at the moment find a summary of the Red Cross discussion but will resume</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>looking after this call.</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br></span><tt> Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland):@Mary: maybe the summary took the form of</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>the proposed Board language?</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br></span><tt> Greg Shatan:Where does the Geneva Convention mention the names of the</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>national societies? (Not individually but as a class of "strings").</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br></span><tt> Mary Wong:@Greg, I believe there is mention in Article 44.</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br></span><tt> Chuck Gomes:Am I the only one that would like us to use a systematic</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>approach to deliberate on the questions we are tasked with answering? We</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>seem to continue to talk about all questions together, which in my opinion</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>makes it difficult to make progress. Why not focus on one charter question</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>at a time, discuss whether the three Council criteria are satisfied and if</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>not discuss whether there is a reasoable basis for making an exception?</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br></span><tt> Alan Greenberg:Red Cross fraud is a bad thing, but protecting the country</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>names will d onothing to protect against such fraud. We cannot stop similar</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>names from being registered and we cannot protect against words such as</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>tsumani or flod. SO let's not confuse the rationale.</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br></span><tt> Greg Shatan:Chuck, I think that would be a very helpful and appropriate</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>approach.</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br></span><tt> Mary Wong:@Chuck, @Greg, our (staff) assumption was that the group is</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>already on the question of "what is the reasonable basis" (e.g. law and/or</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>public policy), as the Council's (and Board's) list of factors/criteria have</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>already defined the scope for the group.</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br></span><tt> Chuck Gomes:On which charter question Mary?</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br></span><tt> Greg Shatan:I'm not asking for perfection. Just a reasonable and</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>objective legal basis.</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br></span><tt> Mary Wong:@Chuck, on the specific request to possibly amend the PDP</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>recommendation concerning the names of the Red Cross National Societies and</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>the two International Movement names., plus a limited, defined set of</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>variants.</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br></span><tt> Chuck Gomes:What charter question are we discussing now?</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br></span><tt> Greg Shatan:Mary, where in Article 44? I'm looking at Art 44 and not</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>seeing it.</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br></span><tt> Mary Wong:@Chuck, all - the charter (scope) for this group was outlined in</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>the Council resolution i.e. amend the original PDP recomemndation regarding</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>the national society names, the two international movement names, and the</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>agreed limited variant list.</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br></span><tt> Greg Shatan:Art 44 is entitled "Combatants and prisoners of war."</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br></span><tt> giacomo mazzone:I agree with what Jorge just said. it's a matter of public</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>policy mainly (legal aspects are important but are a plus). aim of the group</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>is to identify what's the best way to ensure this protection with the</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>minimum of hurdles.</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br></span><tt> Mary Wong:@Greg, it is Article 44 of the First Geneva Convention 1949, I</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>believe.</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br></span><tt> Mary</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>Wong:</tt><a href="https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/applic/ihl/ihl.nsf/Article.xsp?action=op"><tt>https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/applic/ihl/ihl.nsf/Article.xsp?action=op</tt></a><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>enDocument&documentId=5CCB6DD2AB618FABC12563CD0051A251</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br></span><tt> Jennifer Breckenridge:GC Convention 1- ARTICLE 44 With the exception of</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>the cases mentioned in the following paragraphs of the present Article, the</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>emblem of the Red Cross on a white ground and the words "Red Cross", or</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>"Geneva Cross" may not be employed, either in time of peace or in time of</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>war, except to indicate or to protect the medical units and establishments,</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>the personnel and material protected by the present Convention and other</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>Conventions dealing with similar matters. The same shall apply to the</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>emblems mentioned in Article 38, second paragraph [ Link ] , in respect of</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>the countries which use them. The National Red Cross Societies and other</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>Societies designated in Article 26 [ Link ] shall have the right to use the</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>distinctive emblem conferring the protection of the Convention only within</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>the framework of the present paragraph. Furthermore, National Red Cross (Red</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>Crescent, Red Lion and Sun) Societies may, in time of peace, in accordance</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>with their national legislation, make use of the name and emblem of the Red</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>Cros</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br></span><tt> Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland):I feel the document really is clear enough,</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>when the purpose is to understand</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br></span><tt> Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland):question tp Greg: have you read the</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>44-pager?</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br></span><tt> Chuck Gomes:The language is not at all clear to me.</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br></span><tt> Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland):@Chuck: of course, it is legal language</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br></span><tt> Jennifer Breckenridge:continued.....for their other activities which are</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>in conformity with the principles laid down by the International Red Cross</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>Conferences. When those activities are carried out in time of war, the</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>conditions for the use of the emblem shall be such that it cannot be</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>considered as conferring the protection of the Convention; the emblem shall</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>be comparatively small in size and may not be placed on armlets or on the</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>roofs of buildings.The international Red Cross organizations and their duly</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>authorized personnel shall be permitted to make use, at all times, of the</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>emblem of the Red Cross on a white ground.As an exceptional measure, in</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>conformity with national legislation and with the express permission of one</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>of the National Red Cross (Red Crescent, Red Lion and Sun) Societies, the</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>emblem of the Convention may be employed in time of peace to identify</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>vehicles used as ambulances and to mark the position of aid stations</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>exclusively assigned to the purpose of giving free treatment to the wounded</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>or sick.</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br></span><tt> Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland):I feel the burden is on who is making</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>questions and to refer to the 44-doc</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br></span><tt> Mary Wong:All, will it help for staff to recirculate the provisions that</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>Jennifer and Stephane cited/quoted, as well as Jennifer's statement on thsi</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>call?</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br></span><tt> Greg Shatan:The burden of proof is always on those trying to prove</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>something.</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br></span><tt> Chuck Gomes:Legal language can be clear and often is. This legal language</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>is not. The explanations given may be valid but without them I never would</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>have concluded that the national names need to be protected. All that seems</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>clear is that they can use the emblems.</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br></span><tt> Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland):well, they have in my view... with 44</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>pages...</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br></span><tt> Greg Shatan:Your view is not in doubt, Jorge.</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br></span><tt> Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland):when you make such an effort, the minimum</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>is to be specific in the follow-up questions</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br></span><tt> Greg Shatan:A for Effort, perhaps, but not an A for clarity.</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br></span><tt> Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland):I was a bit unsure about whether all had</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>read it, as comments were being made to a completely unrelated provision of</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>the Conventions...</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br></span><tt> Greg Shatan:Having heard what has been said here, one can now form some</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>more specific questions.</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br></span><tt> Greg Shatan:Jorge, blame Google for pulling up the wrong Geneva Convention</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>Art. 44.</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br></span><tt> Jennifer Breckenridge:sorry its long and keeps cutting off the end of the</tt> <br><tt>clause...</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br></span><tt> Mary Wong:@Jennifer, I put the link to the specific Article in the chat</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>above. This entire chat will also be saved and circulatd to the list.</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br></span><tt>Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland):@Greg: I'll agree on that ;P</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br></span><tt> Greg Shatan:If we can avoid 1300-1400 UTC we can avoid overlap with CCWG.</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br></span><tt> giacomo mazzone:who shall prepare the summary requested for point 2 ? it</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>was not clear tome ...</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br></span><tt> Julie Bisland:I'll send out an email invite shortly, for 7 September 2017</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>at 14 :00 UTC</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br></span><tt> Mary Wong:@Giacomo, staff will work with Thomas to follow up on the</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>requests made on this call.</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br></span><tt> Heather Forrest:just noting that 1400 utc is 00:00 for parts of APAC</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br></span><tt> giacomo mazzone:thank Mary, could you circulate in advance to avoid that</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>discussion endless will go on during the call</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br></span><tt> Mary Wong:@Giacomo, yes, we will circulate to the list.</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br></span><tt> Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland):thanks Thomas, all and regards</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br><br></span><tt>________________________________</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>_______________________________________________</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>Gnso-igo-ingo mailing list</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>Gnso-igo-ingo@icann.org<</tt><a href="mailto:Gnso-igo-ingo@icann.org"><tt>mailto:Gnso-igo-ingo@icann.org</tt></a><tt>></tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><a href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-igo-ingo"><tt>https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-igo-ingo</tt></a><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br></span><tt>________________________________</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>[Avast logo]<</tt><a href="https://www.avast.com/antivirus"><tt>https://www.avast.com/antivirus</tt></a><tt>></tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br><br></span><tt>This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><a href="www.avast.com"><tt>www.avast.com</tt></a><tt><</tt><a href="https://www.avast.com/antivirus"><tt>https://www.avast.com/antivirus</tt></a><tt>></tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br><br><br><br></span><tt>_______________________________________________</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>Gnso-igo-ingo mailing list</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>Gnso-igo-ingo@icann.org<</tt><a href="mailto:Gnso-igo-ingo@icann.org"><tt>mailto:Gnso-igo-ingo@icann.org</tt></a><tt>></tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><a href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-igo-ingo"><tt>https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-igo-ingo</tt></a><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br><br></span><tt>_______________________________________________</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>Gnso-igo-ingo mailing list</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt><a href="mailto:Gnso-igo-ingo@icann.org">Gnso-igo-ingo@icann.org</a></tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><a href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-igo-ingo"><tt>https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-igo-ingo</tt></a><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>_______________________________________________</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt>Gnso-igo-ingo mailing list</tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><tt><a href="mailto:Gnso-igo-ingo@icann.org">Gnso-igo-ingo@icann.org</a></tt><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br></span><a href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-igo-ingo"><tt>https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-igo-ingo</tt></a><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br></span><span style='font-size:11.0pt'><o:p></o:p></span></p><div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><span style='font-size:11.0pt'><hr size=1 width="100%" noshade style='color:black' align=center></span></div><p>The ICRC - working to protect and assist people affected by armed conflict and other situations of violence. Find out more: <a href="http://www.icrc.org">www.icrc.org</a><o:p></o:p></p><p>This e-mail is intended for the named recipient(s) only.<br>Its contents are confidential and may only be retained by the named recipient(s) and may only be copied or disclosed with the consent of the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC). If you are not an intended recipient please delete this e-mail and notify the sender. <o:p></o:p></p><div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><span style='font-size:11.0pt'><hr size=1 width="100%" noshade style='color:black' align=center></span></div></div></body></html>