[gnso-improvem-impl-sc] New task - Councilor Training
Avri Doria
avri at acm.org
Thu Jan 17 13:15:25 UTC 2013
Hi,
Since I was first aded to the g-cpuncil way back when, people have talk about training for new council members. Glad to see that old ideas never die.
- I think it is out of scope for this group. We are responsible for looking at the rules themselves. Not how a council members becomes educated in those rules.
- I am sure that too many council members would be too busy or too intelligent to bother taking the course or learn anything from them. they are not that hard or long to read and the staff has done a good job of creating information pieces. Anyone who is smart enough to be on the council can learn the rules if they wish to learn the rules. Plus except for NCAs, any new council member have the senior council members form their Constituency/SG to epxlain things to them form their C/SG's perspective.
- there is a major education effort elsewhere in ICANN. It is bogged down in politics, because no one can agree on the content and the identity of the teachers. We do not trust each other enough to allow someone from the other side, or even staff, to do the teaching.
avri
On 15 Jan 2013, at 17:23, Ron Andruff wrote:
> Dear all,
>
> I think that the concept of providing a new councilor primer is an excellent idea and one that we should give more thought to. Indeed, if all new Councilors are provided with a briefing on their mandate, documents that they should review, etc. that would serve the ICANN community and its various constituencies well. Moreover, a neutral presentation of roles/responsibilities and what is expected of them, may go further to assist new councilors in learning how to find consensus. Something we can all agree has been lacking in the trench warfare that we have seen in Council over the years.
>
> Thanks to Jennifer and Anne for bringing this idea forward. Let’s explore this further.
>
> Kind regards,
>
> RA
>
> Ronald N. Andruff
> RNA Partners, Inc.
> From: owner-gnso-improvem-impl-sc at icann.org [mailto:owner-gnso-improvem-impl-sc at icann.org] On Behalf Of Aikman-Scalese, Anne
> Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2013 2:41 PM
> To: 'Alain Berranger'; Jen Wolfe
> Cc: Neuman, Jeff; Mary.Wong at law.unh.edu; avri at acm.org; gnso-improvem-impl-sc at icann.org
> Subject: RE: [gnso-improvem-impl-sc] New task
>
> Hi all,
> I find myself a bit more concerned about the possible effect of such a rule on quashing motions for reconsideration. There may even be changed circumstances that might justify reconsideration and one would not want to make a rule that no motion that has previously been voted upon can be brought before the Council again.
>
> I also tend to wonder whether a Councilor, especially a newer Councilor, laboring under a misimpression about the conflict of interest rules, might not, in itself, constitute a changed circumstance. Maybe I am less critical because the Councilor in question is an IPC Councilor and also a very good lawyer. If he was confused about this, I consider it possible that anyone might be. So I tend to disagree that if the Councilor in question had been NCSG, that there would have been a uproar about the change in vote (or at least there shouldn't be in an ideal ICANN world).
>
> There is an aspect of this which for me involves "Do unto others as you would have others do unto you." So it seems that if we say this is okay the way it happened, the same leniency is given going forward to any Councilor who labors under a misunderstanding of Council rules, subject perhaps to the discretion of the Chair in bringing the motion again.
>
> The harder line would be: "Dear Councilor: You are responsible for knowing all the rules before you vote and no misunderstanding on your part as to any issue can serve as a basis for resubmission of a motion." If we go this route, new Councilors should definitely be trained accordingly. Do new GNSO Councilors receive training and orientation as is the norm for most Boards?
> Anne
>
> <image001.gif>Anne E. Aikman-Scalese
> Of Counsel
> Lewis and Roca LLP • Suite 700
> One South Church Avenue • Tucson, Arizona 85701-1611
> Tel (520) 629-4428 • Fax (520) 879-4725
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> From: owner-gnso-improvem-impl-sc at icann.org [mailto:owner-gnso-improvem-impl-sc at icann.org] On Behalf Of Alain Berranger
> Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2013 11:26 AM
> To: Jen Wolfe
> Cc: Neuman, Jeff; Mary.Wong at law.unh.edu; avri at acm.org; gnso-improvem-impl-sc at icann.org
> Subject: Re: [gnso-improvem-impl-sc] New task
>
> Thanks Jennifer,
>
> Common sense speaks again! The black belt argument will often close a discussion, though!!!! ;-) Many involved with ICANN would likely benefit from six sigma training... including myself!
>
> Let's see what the Standing Committee on GNSO Improvements Implementation I discussions will lead too.
>
> Cheers, Alain
>
> On Fri, Jan 11, 2013 at 9:37 AM, Jen Wolfe <jwolfe at wolfedomain.com> wrote:
> Hi everyone,
>
> I hope your new year is off to a great start. I know I am new to the council and this committee so forgive me if I am misunderstanding our role, but what confused me about this particular issue was that all of the councilors had the opportunity for discussion, to ask questions and for consensus. A vote was taken and then a councilor asked further clarifying questions and then wanted to change his vote. From a strictly process standpoint, I am not clear on why a new vote should be allowed once the time for discussion and clarifying questions close. In any other parliamentary procedure, legislative body or corporate governance on boards, once a vote is taken, that’s it, even if someone misunderstood something procedurally or substantively.
>
> I fully understand the need for consensus, but once discussion closes and a vote is taken, from a process and procedural standpoint, it’s a slippery slope to start allowing votes to be re-opened because one person asked a clarifying question after the vote was taken. It not only takes up valuable time of the council in discussing new issues, but could be used inappropriately in the future if this were permissible.
>
> I look forward to participating in this committee. I have a black belt in six sigma process improvement and pride myself on finding ways to function more efficiently and hope I can provide meaningful contributions to this committee.
>
> Have a great weekend!
>
> JENNIFER C. WOLFE, ESQ., APR, SSBB
> MANAGING DIRECTOR, WOLFE DOMAIN, A DIGITAL BRAND STRATEGY ADIVSORY FIRM
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> From: owner-gnso-improvem-impl-sc at icann.org [mailto:owner-gnso-improvem-impl-sc at icann.org] On Behalf Of Neuman, Jeff
> Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2013 3:05 PM
> To: Alain Berranger; Mary.Wong at law.unh.edu
> Cc: avri at acm.org; gnso-improvem-impl-sc at icann.org
>
> Subject: RE: [gnso-improvem-impl-sc] New task
>
> All,
>
> I am still missing the rationale as to why the NCSG representatives believe this rule should be in place for a bottom-up consensus driven organization.
>
> Please help me understand.
>
> Jeffrey J. Neuman
> Neustar, Inc. / Vice President, Business Affairs
>
>
> From: Alain Berranger [mailto:alain.berranger at gmail.com]
> Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2013 3:01 PM
> To: Mary.Wong at law.unh.edu
> Cc: avri at acm.org; gnso-improvem-impl-sc at icann.org; jonathan.robinson at ipracon.com; Neuman, Jeff
> Subject: Re: [gnso-improvem-impl-sc] New task
>
>
> I agree fully with Mary's arguments.
>
> Best, Alain
>
> On Wed, Jan 9, 2013 at 12:16 PM, <Mary.Wong at law.unh.edu> wrote:
> Thanks, Jonathan and Jeff. As I won't be on the SCI call this week, my view, FWIW, is that a motion that is properly introduced, seconded and voted on should NOT be re-introduced (whether in its original form or tweaked) in the absence of clear evidence indicating fraud, duress or other similar circumstance surrounding the original introduction/seconding/vote in relation to the motion. In this regard, Councilors' ignorance of the rules (e.g. effect of an abstention), and lack of instruction/direction from a Councilor's particular constituency/SG, should NOT count as the type of circumstance that ought to permit a reintroduction or re-vote on what in substance is the same motion.
>
>
> Cheers
> Mary
>
> Mary W S Wong
> Professor of Law
> Director, Franklin Pierce Center for IP
> Chair, Graduate IP Programs
> UNIVERSITY OF NEW HAMPSHIRE SCHOOL OF LAW
> Two White Street
> Concord, NH 03301
> USA
> Email: mary.wong at law.unh.edu
> Phone: 1-603-513-5143
> Webpage: http://www.law.unh.edu/marywong/index.php
> Selected writings available on the Social Science Research Network (SSRN) at: http://ssrn.com/author=437584
>
> >>> "Jonathan Robinson" 01/10/13 1:12 AM >>>
> All,
>
> My understanding of the role of the SCI is to determine how improvements may be made for the future.
>
> When the motion was re-submitted to the December meeting, I do not believe that there was any procedure to guide the Council on the re-introduction of a motion that had recently been voted on.
>
> This specific issue has highlighted that we may need something to guide us on this in future. I do not believe that the SCI?s hands are tied at all.
>
> We have one useful example which raised concerns and now need to look at as general solution as possible for the future in order to cover both the example that raised the concern and other cases which may occur in future.
>
> Thanks,
>
>
> Jonathan
>
> From: owner-gnso-improvem-impl-sc at icann.org [mailto:owner-gnso-improvem-impl-sc at icann.org] On Behalf Of Mary.Wong at law.unh.edu
> Sent: 09 January 2013 16:58
> To: avri at acm.org; gnso-improvem-impl-sc at icann.org
> Cc: jonathan.robinson at ipracon.com; Jeff.Neuman at neustar.us
> Subject: Re: [gnso-improvem-impl-sc] New task
>
> I support Avri's points generally, and would add the following in this specific instance:
>
> - the initial vote was properly proposed, seconded and voted on.
>
> - just as ignorance of the law is no excuse, the fact that Councilors were not aware of the implications of an abstention (when, frankly, they should be as it's in the rules plain as day) should not permit a re-introduction of something that was properly introduced and voted on.
>
> - In this case I don't know if the specific constituency impacted had given instructions to its Councilors as to how to vote. Even if they did not, the fact remains that these are very clearly set out in the GNSO rules, and if a constituency or Councilors did not know or did not make the time to discuss/decide, that is a very poor excuse for reintroducing a motion (again, one properly introduced, seconded and voted on).
>
> - In an ideal world, the Council should have suspended the matter and referred the issue of a re-introduction/reconsideration of such a motion (without necessarily specifying the actual motion or context) to the SCI before re-opening the vote. As it is, it seems as though the SCI's hands are somewhat tied since the second motion did get voted on and went through - the mind boggles at an SCI determination that this re-introduction and vote was improper or invalid, especially in the currrent somewhat sensitive context within which ICANN is operating.
>
> Cheers
> Mary
>
> Mary W S Wong
> Professor of Law
> Director, Franklin Pierce Center for IP
> Chair, Graduate IP Programs
> UNIVERSITY OF NEW HAMPSHIRE SCHOOL OF LAW
> Two White Street
> Concord, NH 03301
> USA
> Email: mary.wong at law.unh.edu
> Phone: 1-603-513-5143
> Webpage: http://www.law.unh.edu/marywong/index.php
> Selected writings available on the Social Science Research Network (SSRN) at: http://ssrn.com/author=437584
>
> >>> Avri Doria <avri at acm.org> 01/09/13 2:01 PM >>>
>
> Another thought experiment.
>
> There was a recent g-council vote where, in a rare event, the NCSG Policy Council had decided on an unanimous vote on an issue. But during the vote, some voters got confused and voted against.
>
> Would it have been appropriate for us to demand a re-vote?
>
> Had one of us been g-council Chair, would it have ben right for us to just reschedule the vote without even getting the g-councl to discuss and perhaps even vote on the notion of reconsidering the vote?
>
> A general question, anytime from now on, when a SG or Constituency beleive that its voters went against the will of the SG/C should they be able to have a vote rescheduled at the next meeting?
>
> avri
>
>
> On 9 Jan 2013, at 00:54, Avri Doria wrote:
>
> >
> > Even Robert's Rules of Order has rules on when and how a motion can be reconsidered or rescinded (10.5). The Board of ICANN has rules on reconsideration in the ByLaws.
> >
> > One specific requirement for reconsideration under Roberts is that one of those on the prevailing side ask for the reconsideration. In this case it was the Chair who had been on the losing side.
> >
> > We need rules on when it is done and on how it should be done.
> >
> > avri
> >
> >
> >
> > On 9 Jan 2013, at 00:30, J. Scott Evans wrote:
> >
> >> I tend to agree,
> >>
> >> From: Aikman-Scalese, Anne <AAikman at lrlaw.com>;
> >> To: 'Avri Doria' <avri at acm.org>; Jeff Neuman <Jeff.Neuman at neustar.us>; gnso-improvem-impl-sc at icann.org <gnso-improvem-impl-sc at icann.org>;
> >> Cc: Jonathan Robinson <jonathan.robinson at ipracon.com>;
> >> Subject: RE: [gnso-improvem-impl-sc] New task
> >> Sent: Wed, Jan 9, 2013 5:27:47 AM
> >>
> >>
> >> Hi all,
> >> What I am struggling with procedurally is a basic "Robert's Rules" type inquiry. Namely: - I don't know of anything procedurally that would permit a motion that is moved and seconded from being voted on, no matter how obnoxious anyone finds the motion to be. I guess this is what we are going to discuss tomorrow.
> >
> > the issue was voting again after it had already been defeated.
> >
> >>
> >> I would like to ask whether there are specific provisions in the GNSO Operating Procedures regarding introduction of motions that staff can provide prior to our call.
> >
> > It is all in the g-counci Procedures.
> > And is says nothing on reconsideration or rescinding of decisions already made.
> >
> >
> >>
> >> Thank you
> >> Anne
> >>
> >>
> >> Anne E. Aikman-Scalese
> >> Of Counsel
> >> Lewis and Roca LLP * Suite 700
> >> One South Church Avenue * Tucson, Arizona 85701-1611
> >> Tel (520) 629-4428 * Fax (520) 879-4725
> >> AAikman at LRLaw.com * www.LewisandRoca.com/Aikman
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> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: owner-gnso-improvem-impl-sc at icann.org [mailto:owner-gnso-improvem-impl-sc at icann.org] On Behalf Of Avri Doria
> >> Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2013 10:16 PM
> >> To: Jeff Neuman; gnso-improvem-impl-sc at icann.org
> >> Cc: Jonathan Robinson
> >> Subject: Re: [gnso-improvem-impl-sc] New task
> >>
> >>
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >> I guess I do not support that.
> >>
> >> I think a motion should only be voted on once. and that to bring it back, something must have changed or a reasonable amount of time should have past.
> >>
> >> And no we use votes to count the up to the thresholds defined for motions to pass. We may euphemistically use the word consensus, but it has NOTHING to do with consensus. If anything the consensus is in the work of the WGs and not in the votes of the management team, i.e. g-council.
> >>
> >> I believe that what happened in that meeting is something that should never be allowed to happen again. And if we need rules to keep the chair from doing things like that, something I admit never entered my imagination of things that could go wrong, then we need new rules.
> >>
> >> A thought experiment: Just imagine the uproar in the council if an NCUC based g-council chair had dared to some like this when the vote did not go her way.
> >>
> >> avri
> >>
> >> On 8 Jan 2013, at 21:24, Neuman, Jeff wrote:
> >>
> >>>
> >>> Avri,
> >>>
> >>> Yes, I know we use voting to measure consensus. But in the end, the spirit is to achieve consensus on policy items. The fact that it took two votes to do so should not prejudice the results. Again, if there was some evidence of wrong doing, fraud etc., that would be one thing. But that did not happen.
> >>>
> >>> I support the ability to re-vote on any item unless there is evidence of misconduct, harassment, fraud, etc.
> >>>
> >>> Best regards,
> >>>
> >>> Jeffrey J. Neuman
> >>>
> >>> Sent from iPad. Please excuse any typos.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: Avri Doria [mailto:avri at ella.com]
> >>> Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2013 08:29 PM Eastern Standard Time
> >>> To: Neuman, Jeff
> >>> Cc: gnso-improvem-impl-sc at icann.org; Jonathan Robinson
> >>> Subject: Re: [gnso-improvem-impl-sc] New task
> >>>
> >>> Hi,
> >>>
> >>> Sorry, that may be what the reviews intended at one point, but that is not what the current regulations say. Due to the agreement between the SG at the time, a very strict voting regime was adopted and approved by the Board for the g-council. G-council has such a complicated voting structure that the Secretariat has a special tool to help them figure out when a motion has passed or not.
> >>>
> >>> To now claim that g-council is a consensus body does not match the reality of the situation.
> >>>
> >>> avri
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On 8 Jan 2013, at 19:37, Neuman, Jeff wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>
> >>>> I will restate what I said on the Council call. We are not supposed to as a group focus on voting. We are supposed to come to "consensus" on items. If there is a "consensus" at any time of the Council on any given policy (provided that the processes were followed by the working group making the recommendation), then that is what should govern. The last evolution and reform of icann report by the London School of Economics as supported by the Board Governance Committee emphasized this over and over again. We are not supposed to be a voting body, so lets focus back on consensus.
> >>>>
> >>>> All of the comments I have seen from those that did not like the result in the last council meeting have not addressed the fact that ultimately there was a "consensus" on the issue. The fact that there had to be a second measurement of consensus on the item to me seems irrelevant and unnecessarily procedural. There was no abuse of process. There was no abuse within the working group making the recommendation. There is not evidence that there were improper conflicts, etc. Absent any showing of abuse, harassment, fraud, illegality, or willful negligence, I believe having a second measurement of consensus is not an issue.
> >>>>
> >>>> Best regards,
> >>>>
> >>>> Jeffrey J. Neuman
> >>>>
> >>>> Sent from iPad. Please excuse any typos.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>> From: Avri Doria [mailto:avri at ella.com]
> >>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2013 05:31 PM Eastern Standard Time
> >>>> To: gnso-improvem-impl-sc at icann.org
> >>>> Cc: Jonathan Robinson; Neuman, Jeff
> >>>> Subject: Re: [gnso-improvem-impl-sc] New task
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On 8 Jan 2013, at 17:16, Ron Andruff wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> Assuming that the ultimate desired outcome was for Councillors to vote as they were permitted to (and possibly directed to by their group), two remedies were possible.
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> I take real issue with this in that this can only be the case when it is accordance with adherence to all rules of neutrality, transparency and accountability.
> >>>>
> >>>> Once a vote is given, it is taken and clues from anyone on how to make the vote work out better are not, in my view or the view of my stakeholder group, legitimate. It is not for voter to decide that they should be able vote they way they meant to when they voted another way. If it was, those poor old jewish voters on finding out the ballot in Florida was confusing could have taken back their votes for Buchanan, and Gore would have been President of the US. and yes, we may wish with all our hearts that it had been otherwise, but it wasn't. Voting does not work according to wishes unsaid, it works in terms of the vote given.
> >>>>
> >>>> avri
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ----------------------
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>
>
>
>
> --
> Alain Berranger, B.Eng, MBA
> Member, Board of Directors, CECI, http://www.ceci.ca
> Executive-in-residence, Schulich School of Business, www.schulich.yorku.ca
> Treasurer, Global Knowledge Partnership Foundation, www.gkpfoundation.org
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>
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