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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Hi James,<br>
<br>
excellent points there. I think the case with your example is that
this is not actually a case where a registrar is a party to the
dispute. Maybe it is a star witness required to provide the
information only it can provide, but not a party. Those roles are
better left to prior and current registrant. <br>
<br>
This however begs the question if ICANN should implement another
process for registrants to solve their disputes, or if this may
not be better relegated to a future re-design of the UDRP? We
could for example make a recommendation that the UDRP be expanded
to cover also domain ownership issues in any future revision of
that policy.<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
<br>
Volker<br>
<br>
<br>
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:CEC35FB1.39D3F%25jbladel@godaddy.com"
type="cite">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
charset=windows-1252">
<div>Good thoughts everyone. I think perhaps we should try to
capture the various scenarios in the “Reasons for Denial” area,
where a registrar can legitimately deny a registrant’s request
to initiate a TDRP.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>For example: if the Registrant believes that the identity of
the registrant is in question, or that they cannot substantiate
that they were ever the legitimate registrant (or Transfer
Contact) for the name pre-transfer. If its a scenario in which
the registrar has violated the IRTP, (or even the shiny new TDRP
we’re developing), then that is a matter for Compliance and the
registrar's accreditation could be at-risk. But we should avoid
any process where a registrar is compelled to initiate a TDRP
that they believe is without merit, -and- be forced to pay for
the proceedings.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thanks—</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>J.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<span id="OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION">
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<span style="font-weight:bold">From: </span>Mike O'Connor
<<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:mike@haven2.com">mike@haven2.com</a>><br>
<span style="font-weight:bold">Date: </span>Tuesday, December
3, 2013 at 10:09 <br>
<span style="font-weight:bold">To: </span>Volker Greimann
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net">vgreimann@key-systems.net</a>><br>
<span style="font-weight:bold">Cc: </span>"<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:gnso-irtpd@icann.org">gnso-irtpd@icann.org</a>"
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:gnso-irtpd@icann.org">gnso-irtpd@icann.org</a>><br>
<span style="font-weight:bold">Subject: </span>Re:
[gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of
events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role
in TDRP<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space;
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">
hi Volker,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>i'm trying to remedy the situation where a registrar is
either in violation of the IRTP themselves (refusing to
allow the registrant to transfer out) or is presumptively
denying the registrant due process in a dispute between
registrars. this was recognized as an oversight in the
policy back in the misty past when this series of IRTP
PDPs was launched.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>i don't care how this happens. registrars are probably
in the best position to figure out the best way to get
this done and i'm happy to leave that discussion up to
them. i like James' "put pressure on Registrars to
comply" approach since that seems like a lighter/simpler
one but i can live with anything that fixes that problem.
what i'm not keen on the idea of leaving registrants in
their current situation where these decisions get made
"for them" by registrars with no recourse for trapped
registrants except worldwide courts.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
<div>
<div>On Dec 3, 2013, at 9:51 AM, Volker Greimann <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net">vgreimann@key-systems.net</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<blockquote type="cite">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Hi Mike,<br>
<br>
you are assuming that registrants should be
beneficiaries of the TDRP. They are not. Therefore
a registrar not initiating a TDRP is not blocking
the registrants access as they do not have such an
access in the first place.
<br>
<br>
If you want to give the registrant a way to force
a registrar to initiate a proceeding against
another registrar, that is another story, but that
way needs to include an obligation of the
registrant to pay the costs and a right of a
registrar to charge for this service (to cover the
work needed to handle the process).<br>
<br>
Volker<br>
<br>
<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:45A99A3C-7282-4C55-9FE6-55CD27BB5F0E@haven2.com"
type="cite">
i think the key distinction i want to draw is with
your sentence "give registrants access to" the
TDRP. that's not the intent. the intent is to
ensure that registrants are not blocked from that
process by their registrar. the hope here is to
provide an appeal mechanism in those cases where
registrar and registrant disagree on whether a
TDRP is warranted. but i'm fine setting the bar
for that appeal pretty high.
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
<div>
<div>On Dec 2, 2013, at 11:47 AM, Volker
Greimann <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net">vgreimann@key-systems.net</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<blockquote type="cite">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">I still feel
that giving registrants access to the
TDRP process dilutes its purpose as an
inter-registrar dispute process designed
to deal with process violations and will
turn it into a transfer dispute process
between registrants, dragging registrars
and registries into a civil conflict
between two parties. This will result in
increased costs and work for contracted
parties.<br>
<br>
If a registrar is violating transfer
processes, there will be sufficient
incentive for affected registrars to
call them out and if necessary invoke
the current process.<br>
<br>
What we need to look at instead is if
creating an alternate process between
registrant and former registrant
regarding the ownership of a domain name
makes sense.
<br>
<br>
I am also a big fan of the line "He who
wants to hear the music should pay for
the band!", i.e. if a registrant wants a
process to be invoked, he should be
prepared to pony up the fees, just as
with the UDRP. Adding a "loser pays"
clause makes sense to me, but in that
case it will remain the risk of the
complainant that the respondent cannot
pay/is unreachable/etc...<br>
<br>
Volker<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:60AF9317-EEBB-4BE5-A4BB-2B8040A754E5@haven2.com"
type="cite">
<br>
<div apple-content-edited="true"><!-- ^ Position is not set to relative / absolute here because of Mozilla -->
<p>Provide the ability for the
registrant to trigger the TDRP
process in cases when they disagree
with their registrar over an IRTP
issue
</p>
<ul>
<li>
<p>In general, registrars initiate
TDRP when they can't resolve
matters between themselves
</p>
<p>In the case of disagreement
between registrar and registrant
as to whether to initiate a
TDRP, provide a path for the
registrant to take the issue to
Compliance
</p>
<p>Build minimum documentation
requirements for registrants
into the policy as a filter to
prevent frivolous filings
</p>
<p>If Compliance agrees with
registrant, TDRP proceeds as
normal, with fees paid by
registrars, as normal
</p>
<p>If Compliance disagrees with
registrant, that's it -- it's
off to court if the registrant
wants to proceed.</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<div> <br
class="webkit-block-placeholder">
</div>
</li>
</ul>
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<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Volker A. Greimann
- Rechtsabteilung -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
Email: <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net">vgreimann@key-systems.net</a>
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--------------------------------------------
Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
Best regards,
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- legal department -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
Email: <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net">vgreimann@key-systems.net</a>
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<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Volker A. Greimann
- Rechtsabteilung -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
Email: <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net">vgreimann@key-systems.net</a>
Web: <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.key-systems.net/">www.key-systems.net</a> / <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.rrpproxy.net/">www.RRPproxy.net</a><a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.domaindiscount24.com/">www.domaindiscount24.com</a> / <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.brandshelter.com/">www.BrandShelter.com</a>
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Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin
Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.keydrive.lu/">www.keydrive.lu</a>
Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
--------------------------------------------
Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
Best regards,
Volker A. Greimann
- legal department -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
Email: <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net">vgreimann@key-systems.net</a>
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<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Volker A. Greimann
- Rechtsabteilung -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net">vgreimann@key-systems.net</a>
Web: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.key-systems.net">www.key-systems.net</a> / <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.RRPproxy.net">www.RRPproxy.net</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.domaindiscount24.com">www.domaindiscount24.com</a> / <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.BrandShelter.com">www.BrandShelter.com</a>
Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems">www.facebook.com/KeySystems</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.twitter.com/key_systems">www.twitter.com/key_systems</a>
Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin
Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.keydrive.lu">www.keydrive.lu</a>
Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
--------------------------------------------
Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
Best regards,
Volker A. Greimann
- legal department -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net">vgreimann@key-systems.net</a>
Web: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.key-systems.net">www.key-systems.net</a> / <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.RRPproxy.net">www.RRPproxy.net</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.domaindiscount24.com">www.domaindiscount24.com</a> / <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.BrandShelter.com">www.BrandShelter.com</a>
Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:
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CEO: Alexander Siffrin
Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.keydrive.lu">www.keydrive.lu</a>
This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
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