<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class="">Paul:<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Definitely have some questions/concerns with the proposal. I would ask that we first discuss what problems we are trying to solve for with the changes -- what were the concerns with the LRO process in this round and/or are there new concerns for subsequent processes? Also, how would ICANN be able to establish that an entity applied for a TLD for the purpose of getting a private auction payment? </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">I won't be on the call, but happy to discuss after. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Best,</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">jon<br class="">
<br class=""><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Dec 20, 2016, at 11:21 AM, <a href="mailto:policy@paulmcgrady.com" class="">policy@paulmcgrady.com</a> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div class=""><span style="font-family: Verdana; font-size: 10pt;" class=""><div class="">All,</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">You may recall on our recent call there was discussion of whether or not the LRO served its essential purpose. i volunteered to put some thoughts on paper about how to improve it. So, in advance of our call later today, attached is a Strawman edit of the Legal Rights Objection for discussion. This is a discussion document only, not anything formal. Looking forward to speaking with you all later today.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Best,</div><div class="">Paul</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div>
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-------- Original Message --------<br class="">
Subject: [Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt3] Recording,_AC_Chat_&_A<br class="">
ttendance_from_New_gTLD_Subsequent_Procedures_Sub_Team_<br class="">
_Track_3__String_Contention,_Objections_&_Disp<br class="">
utes_on_Tuesday,_13_December_2016_at_20:00_UTC<br class="">
From: Michelle DeSmyter <<a href="mailto:michelle.desmyter@icann.org" class="">michelle.desmyter@icann.org</a>><br class="">
Date: Wed, December 14, 2016 7:15 am<br class="">
To: "<a href="mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt3@icann.org" class="">gnso-newgtld-wg-wt3@icann.org</a>" <<a href="mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt3@icann.org" class="">gnso-newgtld-wg-wt3@icann.org</a>><br class="">
Cc: "<a href="mailto:gnso-secs@icann.org" class="">gnso-secs@icann.org</a>" <<a href="mailto:gnso-secs@icann.org" class="">gnso-secs@icann.org</a>><br class="">
<br class="">
<div class=""> <div class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size:12pt;; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"> <span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Dear All,<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div> <div style="font-family: -webkit-standard;" class=""> <div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""> <span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""> </span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div> <div class=""> <div class=""> <div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""> <span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Please find the attendance and recording of the call attached to this email and the AC Chat below for the New gTLD Subsequent Procedures Sub Team – Track 3 – String Contention, Objections & Disputes held on Tuesday, 13 December 2016 at 20:00 UTC.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div> <div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""> <span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></span></div> </div> <div class=""> <div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""> <span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">The recordings of the calls are posted on the GNSO Master Calendar page:<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div> </div> <div class=""> <div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""> <span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><a href="http://gnso.icann.org/en/group-activities/calendar#nov" target="_blank" style="color: purple;" class="">http://gnso.icann.org/en/group-activities/calendar</a> <o:p class=""></o:p></span></div> </div> <div class=""> <div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""> <span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></span></div> </div> <div class=""> <div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""> <span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">** Please let me know if your name has been left off the list **<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div> </div> <div class=""> <div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""> <span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></span></div> </div> <div class=""> <div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""> <span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Mailing list archives: </span><a target="_blank" href="http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/gnso-newgtld-wg-wt3" style="color: purple;" class=""><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(59, 115, 175); background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;" class="">http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/gnso-newgtld-wg-wt3</span></a><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div> </div> <div class=""> <div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""> <span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></span></div> </div> <div class=""> <div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""> <span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Wiki page: </span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></span><a target="_blank" href="https://community.icann.org/x/45vDAw" style="font-family: -webkit-standard; font-size: 14px;" class="">https://community.icann.org/x/45vDAw</a></div> <div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""> <span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""> </span></div> </div> <div class=""> <div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""> <span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></span></div> </div> <div class=""> <div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""> <span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Thank you.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div> </div> <div class=""> <div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""> <span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Kind regards,<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div> </div> <div class=""> <div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""> <span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Michelle <o:p class=""></o:p></span></div> </div> <div class=""> <div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""> <span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></span></div> </div> <div class=""> <div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""> <span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">-------------------------------<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div> </div> <div class=""> <div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""> <b class=""><u class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Adobe Connect chat transcript </span></u></b><b class=""><u class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">for 13 December 2016</span></u></b></div> <div class=""> Michelle DeSmyter:Dear All, Welcome to the New gTLD Subsequent Procedures Sub Team – Track 3 – String Contention, Objections & Disputes call on Tuesday, 13 December 2016 at 20:00 UTC.</div> <div class=""> Michelle DeSmyter:Meeting page: <a target="_blank" href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__community.icann.org_x_C6HDAw&d=DgIFaQ&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=8_WhWIPqsLT6TmF1Zmyci866vcPSFO4VShFqESGe_5iHWGlBLwwwehFBfjrsjWv9&m=lJxShJwqDJZsJBlmvcwJ16C6mXTWjLJjMy1jxOscdsw&s=OmPJI1s5tooAZp85fKAI82K2-gadVY_Z_KYurn6J-2o&e=" class="">https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__community.icann.org_x_C6HDAw&d=DgIFaQ&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=8_WhWIPqsLT6TmF1Zmyci866vcPSFO4VShFqESGe_5iHWGlBLwwwehFBfjrsjWv9&m=lJxShJwqDJZsJBlmvcwJ16C6mXTWjLJjMy1jxOscdsw&s=OmPJI1s5tooAZp85fKAI82K2-gadVY_Z_KYurn6J-2o&e=</a></div> <div class=""> Jeff Neuman:Thanks! I am on mute now until call starts</div> <div class=""> Jeff Neuman:yes</div> <div class=""> Greg Shatan:I am not walking through Grand Central Terminal, so that</div> <div class=""> Greg Shatan:is an improvement for me....</div> <div class=""> Gg Levine (NABP):I think we could get more milage out 90 minute calls than weekly calls.</div> <div class=""> Jeff Neuman:Just to emphasize the Council of Europe Report, this was brought up again at the IGF session briefly</div> <div class=""> Jeff Neuman:I believe the GAC is discussing this report and may likely base some advice on that report</div> <div class=""> Robin Gross:nothing to add. thanks</div> <div class=""> Jeff Neuman:same</div> <div class=""> Kurt Pritz:Is a link to the Council of Europe Report readily available?</div> <div class=""> Steve Chan 2:@Kurt, available here: <a target="_blank" href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__community.icann.org_x_Wz2AAw&d=DgIFaQ&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=8_WhWIPqsLT6TmF1Zmyci866vcPSFO4VShFqESGe_5iHWGlBLwwwehFBfjrsjWv9&m=lJxShJwqDJZsJBlmvcwJ16C6mXTWjLJjMy1jxOscdsw&s=sT8Yd28Ch1k99DCsEnsTBiyhcxAbOsIJ5oHnrN8KWzA&e=" class="">https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__community.icann.org_x_Wz2AAw&d=DgIFaQ&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=8_WhWIPqsLT6TmF1Zmyci866vcPSFO4VShFqESGe_5iHWGlBLwwwehFBfjrsjWv9&m=lJxShJwqDJZsJBlmvcwJ16C6mXTWjLJjMy1jxOscdsw&s=sT8Yd28Ch1k99DCsEnsTBiyhcxAbOsIJ5oHnrN8KWzA&e=</a></div> <div class=""> Emily Barabas 2:<a target="_blank" href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__rm.coe.int_CoERMPublicCommonSearchServices_DisplayDCTMContent-3FdocumentId-3D09000016806b5a14&d=DgIFaQ&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=8_WhWIPqsLT6TmF1Zmyci866vcPSFO4VShFqESGe_5iHWGlBLwwwehFBfjrsjWv9&m=lJxShJwqDJZsJBlmvcwJ16C6mXTWjLJjMy1jxOscdsw&s=DGJu1VIf91LAeGY81TZ55mePGWW6_B5uplzh0LxIyHM&e=" class="">https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__rm.coe.int_CoERMPublicCommonSearchServices_DisplayDCTMContent-3FdocumentId-3D09000016806b5a14&d=DgIFaQ&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=8_WhWIPqsLT6TmF1Zmyci866vcPSFO4VShFqESGe_5iHWGlBLwwwehFBfjrsjWv9&m=lJxShJwqDJZsJBlmvcwJ16C6mXTWjLJjMy1jxOscdsw&s=DGJu1VIf91LAeGY81TZ55mePGWW6_B5uplzh0LxIyHM&e=</a></div> <div class=""> Emily Barabas 2:(sorry steve, i was one step behind you)</div> <div class=""> Kurt Pritz:thanks, and, thanks</div> <div class=""> Steve Chan 2:Sorry all, wasn't getting chat in the AC room and had to relaunch.</div> <div class=""> Emily Barabas 2:correct, karen</div> <div class=""> Jeff Neuman:My bad....same time next week :) Its the last calls this week for WT 1 and 2 :)</div> <div class=""> Jon Nevett:Alan, to which ones did ALAC object?</div> <div class=""> Jeff Neuman:There was only one of them</div> <div class=""> Jeff Neuman:.health</div> <div class=""> Kurt Pritz:@ Alan: I think the distinction is that the Independent Objector was automatically granred standing; the ALAC was funded but also had to qualify as having standing as an injured party</div> <div class=""> Jeff Neuman:ok..then I am in favor of abolishing that right. </div> <div class=""> Alan Greenberg:Clearly!</div> <div class=""> Jeff Neuman:The ALAC should have no different objection rights than any other AC (other than the GAC) or SO</div> <div class=""> Alan Greenberg:We had the same rights. Only the funding was different.</div> <div class=""> Alan Greenberg:But in any case, I was simply raising the issue to be discussed.</div> <div class=""> Alan Greenberg:@Kirk, yes that is correct.</div> <div class=""> Alan Greenberg:Oops - bad fingers - Kurt.</div> <div class=""> Jeff Neuman:sorry, can you repeat that point</div> <div class=""> Jeff Neuman:yes</div> <div class=""> Kurt Pritz:Not sure how to introduce this: It was cleared to me that the objection process was used (gamed) by some applicants to delay other applications. It was thought that the loser pays mechanism would prevent much of this gaming but it turned out not to be so. </div> <div class=""> Mike Rodenbaugh:Fees can be dealt with on omnibus basis. Seems no reason why they would be structured differently depending on objection type.</div> <div class=""> Jeff Neuman:Yes, deal with at the end with some general principals applicable to all</div> <div class=""> Jeff Neuman:principles</div> <div class=""> Jeff Neuman:sorry</div> <div class=""> Rubens Kuhl:Kurt, I believe that was a mixture of doing by purpose and doing by not caring whether someone will be impacted, just for the small chance of prevailing. </div> <div class=""> Jon Nevett:Agree with Kurt and Rubens</div> <div class=""> Kurt Pritz:If we agree there was gaming and that there was harm that game from it (I am not sure it is true) then we should try to address gaming, not just but pricing, but by other means.</div> <div class=""> Kurt Pritz:@Jeff having a "right" to object does not mean it is a legitimate use of the process</div> <div class=""> Rubens Kuhl:The dog agrees that we had gaming. </div> <div class=""> Annebeth Lange, ccNSO:Sorry that I am late - I was delayed in another call</div> <div class=""> Jeff Neuman::</div> <div class=""> Kurt Pritz:The penalty for losing (say 30,000) is so small compared to the value of the TLD ($x million) that it is a small gamble to file an objection</div> <div class=""> Jeff Neuman:Neuman Rule #2</div> <div class=""> Rubens Kuhl:Perhaps such penalties belong with competition authorities and courts ? </div> <div class=""> Jeff Neuman:I agree with Paul.....I am not a believer that we have proven it is broken</div> <div class=""> Paul McGrady:+1 - agree that we should ask for factual evidence before fixing it</div> <div class=""> Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO):yes good for CC2</div> <div class=""> Rubens Kuhl:LRO standing for IGOs/INGOs is something peculiar. </div> <div class=""> Rubens Kuhl:But removing it might cause issues with GAC of where they would go. </div> <div class=""> Rubens Kuhl:It was not used, although could have been used by ECO. </div> <div class=""> Paul McGrady:Just to confirm @Rubens. This is a hot topic right now in GNSOland.</div> <div class=""> Rubens Kuhl:ECO later sent a letter to ICANN questioning that application, but that was too late and out of process. </div> <div class=""> Mike Rodenbaugh:adobe connect is not working for my audio...</div> <div class=""> Mike Rodenbaugh:apparently still no audio. ugh</div> <div class=""> Mike Rodenbaugh:don't worry about it. I'll take it to the email list because it is detailed. Involves my client .GCC.</div> <div class=""> Rubens Kuhl:We can just acknowledge that as an useful quirk and keep it on. It's weird but not too weird. </div> <div class=""> Greg Shatan:That would be helpful.</div> <div class=""> Rubens Kuhl:I have an issue with SCO standing, but we are talking LROs. Just to put a marker down. </div> <div class=""> Kurt Pritz:The legal rights objection was lightly, if at all, used. It is cheap insurance for the gTLD program. I think we should leave it as is. </div> <div class=""> Paul McGrady:+1 Kurt. I see no reason to wade into the mess if we don't have to.</div> <div class=""> Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO):agreed Jeff</div> <div class=""> Rubens Kuhl:"If ain't broke, don't fix it"</div> <div class=""> Mike Rodenbaugh:The LRO was used in several instances, which bear reviewing and considering whether changes are appropriate.</div> <div class=""> Mike Rodenbaugh:.Merck. .DelMonte. .GCC</div> <div class=""> Rubens Kuhl:Merck is Kramer x Kramer, corporate world version. No happy ending possible. </div> <div class=""> Kurt Pritz:@ Mike - those were the legitimate uses of the process and it worked fairly well</div> <div class=""> Paul McGrady:@Mike, were the examples you gave related to standing? or just the LRO generally?</div> <div class=""> Mike Rodenbaugh:LRO generally. Though GCC has a standing issue.</div> <div class=""> Mike Rodenbaugh:Specifically, GCC was not on the WIPO trademark list until after the applications were revealed.</div> <div class=""> Kurt Pritz:Side issue: initial evidence of gaming: Just checking: out of about 275 objections, the objector prevailed about 30 times, about 11%. In an evenly constructed process, I wiould think objectors would prevail 50% or more of the time. In loser pays, I would think objectors would prevail much greater than 50% of the time. </div> <div class=""> Emily Barabas 2:Objections section of the wiki: <a target="_blank" href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__community.icann.org_display_NGSPP_4.4.3-2BObjections&d=DgIFaQ&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=8_WhWIPqsLT6TmF1Zmyci866vcPSFO4VShFqESGe_5iHWGlBLwwwehFBfjrsjWv9&m=lJxShJwqDJZsJBlmvcwJ16C6mXTWjLJjMy1jxOscdsw&s=YUFgIu1UUJ0df9tt4NnLpVvbz3c4v3LInIMGKv4KkDE&e=" class="">https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__community.icann.org_display_NGSPP_4.4.3-2BObjections&d=DgIFaQ&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=8_WhWIPqsLT6TmF1Zmyci866vcPSFO4VShFqESGe_5iHWGlBLwwwehFBfjrsjWv9&m=lJxShJwqDJZsJBlmvcwJ16C6mXTWjLJjMy1jxOscdsw&s=YUFgIu1UUJ0df9tt4NnLpVvbz3c4v3LInIMGKv4KkDE&e=</a></div> <div class=""> Rubens Kuhl:It could be close to UDRP prevail rates, I believe. </div> <div class=""> Mike Rodenbaugh:GCC did not work well at all. In fact the Board stopped the LRO from being heard, even though it was fully briefed by the parties. Because of intervening GAC Advice.</div> <div class=""> Jeff Neuman:Paul has just volunteered to submit his comments to the list :)</div> <div class=""> Paul McGrady:@Jeff - you bet I did.</div> <div class=""> Jeff Neuman:Does Paul want to form a little subgroup to work on that?</div> <div class=""> Paul McGrady:I was +1'ing Kurt only on the standing issue</div> <div class=""> Paul McGrady:@Kurt, I think it just didn't get the attention it needed at the time. Wasn't meant to be critical of the hard work of the staff at the time. I think we can improve it.</div> <div class=""> Paul McGrady:Attention from the community (not staff)</div> <div class=""> Alan Greenberg:Dead air!</div> <div class=""> Paul McGrady:I can't heart anything.</div> <div class=""> Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO):audio</div> <div class=""> Paul McGrady:hear</div> <div class=""> Jeff Neuman:This is a tough objection, because we do not really ask registries what they are going to do with the TLD and hold them to that. If we did, a legal rights objection may be easier because you can judge it based on the proposed use</div> <div class=""> Paul McGrady:happy to</div> <div class=""> Jeff Neuman:But that would raise a whole other set of issues in enforcement and how to change your purpose of your TLD, etc.</div> <div class=""> Jeff Neuman:Great discussion on the call!</div> <div class=""> Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO):thanks. Bye for now</div> </div> </div> <div class=""><br class=""> </div> </div> </div> <hr class="">_______________________________________________<br class="">
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</blockquote></span></div><span id="cid:192C7F54-9E51-40B8-B48E-5D87FA0230D0@home"><Legal Rights Objection - Strawman Edits.docx></span>_______________________________________________<br class="">Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt3 mailing list<br class=""><a href="mailto:Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt3@icann.org" class="">Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt3@icann.org</a><br class="">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-newgtld-wg-wt3</div></blockquote></div><br class=""></div></body></html>