[Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5] The WT5 meeting in San Juan - CW comments
Greg Shatan
gregshatanipc at gmail.com
Wed Apr 4 12:41:01 UTC 2018
A string may be used as a brand, a geographical name, a generic term, a
purpose-specific term and a surname, among other things.
Whether it is “primarily” one of those things may or may not be a relevant
or workable test or factor. And how one determines the primary use is
open to debate. Declaring that if some patch of dirt or pool of water has
been named X, that X is always “primarily” a geographical name, regardless
of other uses and factors, is a conclusion, not a basis.
Invoking “transparency and predictability” as a mantra doesn’t make it any
more reasoned. I don’t think there’s a “transparency” issue here at all,
but since we all support transparency (except, it appears, when it comes to
who owns a domain name) it must be good, right? And why the “transparency
and predictability” needs of the occupants of a tiny village trump the
transparency and predictability of millions of consumers is still a
mystery. It represents a dirt-based physical nationalism that is very much
at odds with the border less reality and future of the Internet, though
experiencing a disturbing resurgence at the moment in the U.S. and
elsewhere. You can build a wall at the border or around a patch of dirt;
that doesn’t mean that you put that same wall around every top level domaIn
name that happens to be used as a geographical name somewhere.
Greg
On Wed, Apr 4, 2018 at 3:04 AM lists at christopherwilkinson.eu Wilkinson <
lists at christopherwilkinson.eu> wrote:
> Dear Greg, Dear WT5 participants:
>
> I consider that a geographical name pertains primarily and in the first
> instance to the internet users (present and future) in the location
> concerned.
>
> This in the interests of transparency and predictability for individual
> users among those communities and economies.
>
> Regards
>
> CW
>
>
> El 2 de abril de 2018 a las 19:32 Greg Shatan <gregshatanipc at gmail.com>
> escribió:
>
> Kris,
>
> What is your basis for thinking that Geonames takes precedence over IP?
> I’d like to understand that thought process, and see how broadly you think
> this “precedence” should be applied (and why).
>
> Thanks!
>
> Greg
>
> On Mon, Apr 2, 2018 at 3:49 AM Kris Seeburn <seeburn.k at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Just a thought:
>
> Why don’t we just ensure country codes with ISO alpha 3 is retained for
> countries plain and simple. There are countries where even the alpha-2 are
> not within an independent hands. ICANN is still working trying to release
> them from certain people, but still no way out. So a proposal is all the
> ISO alpha 3 are allotted within bounds that these could be used as
> alternate to alpha 2 for countries. That could clear the air for government
> and so on. So ISO alpha 3 can still be under GNSO per say. We do not move
> them to cctld.Just a thought.
>
> Then we could look at brands etc., based on IP or a strong case where it
> geoname attached to a country language, or culture but without also
> destroying a model that would be on the onus of the party requesting such
> Domain. Since we are talking Geonames. I think Geo takes precedence over IP
> but we may need to establish a strict way of engaging this as it could
> backfire as well.
>
> My two cents. But still it’s a double sided cutting knife.
>
>
> On Apr 2, 2018, at 08:35, Greg Shatan <gregshatanipc at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I would say that the ideas and concepts in RFC 3071 are still quite
> relevant. I'd prefer that others (and Christopher) consider their
> substance, rather than finding ways to dismiss them without responding to
> them. We have not been at this domain name thing for all that long, and
> there is relatively little that looks at the taxonomy of domain names in
> any comprehensive way.
>
> *Christopher, can you clarify what "relevant prior rights" you are
> referring to with regard to geographical names? Which laws and/or treaties
> are you referring to, and to which parts?*
>
> While I hope that "the question of multiple uses can be resolved," I
> expect that it will, indeed it must, become a driver of "the eventual
> policy for geographical names."
>
> It's an interesting way to turn history on its head and state that "all
> sorts of 'purpose specific' TLDs have been subsumed into the G* concept
> within GNSO." It's really quite the opposite. Once upon a time, there
> was a DNSO and the DNSO was in charge of policy for all domain names. Then
> came a time when two-letter TLDs specifically designated for a particular
> country or autonomous territory derived from ISO 3166-1 alpha-2 country
> codes (i.e., ccTLDs) were removed from the purview of the DNSO (which was
> renamed the GNSO) and placed in a new "supporting organization," the
> ccNSO. All else remained in the GNSO.
>
> As for whether there is an analogy with brands, I'll need to understand
> what "relevant prior rights" (i.e., laws and/or treaties) are being invoked
> in that analogy before I can respond. Even assuming *arguendo* that
> there is an analogy, the issue of rights to a string really only becomes
> relevant when more than one party is interested in it or claims an interest
> or right in it. Which brings us right back to "the question of multiple
> uses."
>
> Best regards,
>
> Greg
> .
>
> On Thu, Mar 29, 2018 at 3:16 AM, cw at christopherwilkinson.eu <
> cw at christopherwilkinson.eu> wrote:
>
> Good morning:
>
> Allow me to respond briefly to Greg Shatan's comments, which evidently
> reflect his long experience with these matters:
>
> 1.
>
> I think that the reference to RFC 3071
> <https://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc3071.txt> is not particularly helpful at
> this stage. At that time, 17 years ago, John Klensin submitted this
> 'informational' text as 'reflexions' in his 'personal capacity'. In the
> interim, ICANN has taken several decisions which - for better or worse –
> depart from the advice of RFC 3071. We have move on.
> 2.
>
> Granted that there are sometimes several meanings for certain words in
> English, and probably in other languages as well, but this fact does not
> justify ignoring relevant prior rights, not least for brands and
> geographical names. Bearing in mind that the latter have usually been
> present long before the former’s associated usage of the same same string.
>
> In any event, ICANN would, as before, have to deal with potential
> conflicts between strings with more than one meaning, including several
> geographical names among themselves. Meanwhile, a significant proportion of
> geographical names do not experience multiple uses – even in English.
>
> I am sure that the question of multiple uses can be resolved and need
> not become a 'driver' of the eventual policy for geographical names.
> 3.
>
> Regarding GNSO and gTLDs, it is indeed instructive to learn that all
> sorts of 'purpose specific' TLDs have been subsumed into the G* concept
> within GNSO.
>
> For present purposes, so be it.
>
> But in that case, I would also argue - by analogy with brands – that
> geographical names should benefit from protection in the interest of
> predictability and transparency for individual users, in the locations,
> economies and communities concerned.
>
> Regards to you all
>
> CW
>
>
>
> 2018-03-26 6:54 GMT+01:00 Greg Shatan <gregshatanipc at gmail.com>:
>
> With regard to point 3 ("Geographical names are not Generic in the usual
> semantic or, indeed, ICANN sense. Nearly all of those names are specific to
> places, cultures, regions, communities and their local economies. The fact
> that GNSO has taken the lead in the PDP WT5, does not diminish in any way
> the specific characteristics of geo-names."):
>
> We should avoid getting drawn into a policy conflict disguised as a
> semantic argument. The term "generic" as used in "generic TLDs" has long
> since departed from any "semantic" meaning of generic. Even as far back as
> 2001, RFC 3071 recognized that "generic" was ambiguous when applied to
> gTLDs, whic could be "generic" as in "purpose neutral" or "unbranded and
> open for use in any way" or "generic" as in "purpose-specific" or "related
> to a particular genus of registrants." As a result of the 2012 New gTLD
> round, we now have hundreds of gTLDs that are .Brands. Brands are
> conceptually and semantically the opposite of generic. We have dozens of
> TLDs being used as "geo-names." We also have many that are "purpose
> specific" and many that are open to use by all without any type of "genus"
> implied or expressed. I'm sure there are other types and distinctions to
> be made, but ultimately these are all gTLDs.
>
> The same word or string can have multiple meanings. In numerous cases,
> the same string could be delegated and used as a generic, purpose-specific,
> .Brand or geo-name gTLD, depending on the applicant's plans. We need to be
> conservative with the idea that a string or word is inherently one thing or
> another. For instance, "tours" could be a .brand, a geo-name, a
> purpose-specific gTLD or even a purpose-neutral gTLD.
>
> The GNSO's role here is not one where it has "taken the lead" as a
> free-floating "fact" but one where it has that responsibility as a matter
> of ICANN policy. In that vein, this is not "PDP WT5"; this is a "work
> track" within a GNSO Policy Development Process Working Group. The GNSO
> is a task-based entity, with that task being to manage the process of
> developing the policy recommendations for gTLDs. Anyone can participate in
> that process. It is irrelevant whether they are a member of (or a
> stakeholder represented by) any GNSO Stakeholder Group or Constituency.
>
> That is not to say this is the only possible way in which ICANN could have
> been or could be constituted. Before there was a GNSO and a ccNSO, there
> was a DNSO, which "advise[d] the ICANN Board on policy issues relating to
> the domain name system (DNS) -- the system of names commonly used to
> identify Internet locations and resources." Some body could decide to
> re-imagine this structure yet -- reconsider what is a gTLD and what is a
> ccTLD (perhaps based on use and purpose than on the ISO 3166 two-letter
> list), and whether other categories should be recognized aside from these
> two. But this body is not that body. And this body has enough
> complexities and distractions to complicate and delay our work without
> getting into existential debates -- especially those that are firmly
> outside our remit.
>
> It might be interesting to establish an unchartered discussion group to
> have those existential debates. However, it is the farthest thing from
> interesting (not to mention, productive) to turn this Work Track into that
> discussion group. I strongly encourage us not to get drawn down that
> rabbit-hole, which is in fact a rabbit-warren with a multitude of holes.
>
> Greg
>
> On Sun, Mar 25, 2018 at 3:14 PM, Javier Rua <javrua at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Thanks Christopher.
>
> Javier Rúa-Jovet
>
> +1-787-396-6511
> twitter: @javrua
> skype: javier.rua1
> https://www.linkedin.com/in/javrua
>
>
> On Mar 25, 2018, at 3:12 PM, "lists at christopherwilkinson.eu" <
> lists at christopherwilkinson.eu> wrote:
>
>
>
> Dear WT5 Participants:
>
>
> Further to the Wt5 meeting in San Juan on 14 March, this is just to recall
> the main points that I made during that discussion.
>
>
> 1. For the new gTLD PDP to move forward with a reasonable delay, we need a
> new geo-TLD policy now. It would not be a good idea to wait for, or to
> out-source to other external entities, although in due course, external
> contributions may become relevant.
>
>
> 2. I suggested that WT5 would save time by discontinuing discussion
> about ISO 3166. That is an international standard for codes and names
> representing countries and their subdivisions. As such, it is a well
> codified sub-set of the generality of geographical names. The bottom line
> is that within the scope of ISO 3166, ICANN is bound to respect the
> international standard.
>
>
> 3. It is also not advisable to pursue the idea that the 2012 Applicant
> Guide Book (AGB) definition of geo-names is a relevant ‘default’. That text
> failed to address several classes of names that are of significant interest
> to user communities, a lacunae which gave rise to several disagreements and
> delays last time around. That should be corrected for the next round, as
> unambiguously as possible, in the interests of transparency and
> predictability for the individual users in the locations concerned.
>
>
> In that context, I regret that the WT5 Terms of Reference do not address
> those issues explicitly. They will now have to be addressed by WT5.
>
>
> 3. Geographical names are not Generic in the usual semantic or, indeed,
> ICANN sense. Nearly all of those names are specific to places, cultures,
> regions, communities and their local economies.
>
> The fact that GNSO has taken the lead in the PDP WT5, does not diminish in
> any way the specific characteristics of geo-names.
>
>
> The approach to geographical names requires a tailored approach to the
> evaluation and implementation of such applications, to which I shall return
> in due course as the WT5 agenda evolves.
>
>
> Regards
>
>
> Christopher Wilkinson
>
>
> PS: Resending, because the original message was sent from a non-WT5
> registered address. Apologies for any duplication.
>
>
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>
> Kris Seeburn
> seeburn.k at gmail.com
>
> - www.linkedin.com/in/kseeburn/
> "Life is a Beach, it all depends at how you look at it"
>
>
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