[Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5] WT5 Agenda, Work Plan & Consensus Call on Country & Territory Names - Please review before our call.

Alexander Schubert alexander at schubert.berlin
Wed Aug 8 21:22:30 UTC 2018


    

An innocent question to the group:
Per our current geo gTLD policy proposal; if for a non-capital 'small' city name string one entity had Government support while another claims non-geo use: how is contention resolved? They would just be subject to normal contention? So big bucks win? 
Thanks,
Alexander


Sent from my Samsung device

-------- Original message --------
From: Greg Shatan <gregshatanipc at gmail.com> 
Date: 8/8/18  20:07  (GMT+02:00) 
To: Javier Rua <javrua at gmail.com> 
Cc: Icann Gnso Newgtld Wg Wt5 <gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org> 
Subject: Re: [Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5] WT5 Agenda, Work Plan & Consensus Call on Country & Territory Names - Please review before our call. 

Apache is not a geographic term and therefore not within our remit. Can we stick to discussing  strings where at least one meaning is geographic? Thanks!
Best regards,
Greg
On Wed, Aug 8, 2018 at 11:07 AM Javier Rua <javrua at gmail.com> wrote:
All:
I think it was Paul that made the point in todays call that this “Apache” question is the type of issue best left to the national law level; but I wonder if it was the other way around: some national US law that forbade the Apache people from applying for and registering a “.apache” string.  Should ICANN feel bound here by US Law? Is International Law relevant? What if any preventative or curative policy be put in place, if any?
Please all chip in!

Javier Rúa-Jovet
+1-787-396-6511twitter: @javruaskype: javier.rua1https://www.linkedin.com/in/javrua 

On Aug 8, 2018, at 10:52 AM, Katrin Ohlmer | DOTZON GmbH <ohlmer at dotzon.com> wrote:









Dear Jon,
 
but the community objection process does not apply once a string has been delegated – a community would have to file an objections before.
 
Kind regards
Katrin
 
 

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Akazienstrasse 28

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Fax: +49 30 49802727

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Sitz der Gesellschaft: Akazienstrasse 28, 10823 Berlin

 


Von: Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 <gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5-bounces at icann.org>
Im Auftrag von Jon Nevett

Gesendet: Mittwoch, 8. August 2018 14:41

An: Javier Rua <javrua at gmail.com>

Cc: Icann Gnso Newgtld Wg Wt5 <gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org>

Betreff: Re: [Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5] WT5 Agenda, Work Plan & Consensus Call on Country & Territory Names - Please review before our call.


 

And that is why we have a community objection process . . .




On Aug 8, 2018, at 5:23 AM, Javier Rua <javrua at gmail.com> wrote:



Sure!

 


“Thanks Robin!








To continue this interesting conversation, a question (anyone can of course chip in) how could this hypothetical be solved preemptively or curatively (a posteriori): What if 1) an “Apache Helicopter Corp.”, a company that incidentally has
 registered US trademarks for the name “Apache Helicopter”, applied for a “.apache” string; 2) the US government never objected (or paid any attention) to said application, and the string was delegated, 3) yet a representative of the several federally recognized
 Apache Tribes, a few months later found about this and objected to this “appropriation of their cultural identity-the name of their people”?  









PS: My heart wants the Apaches to prevail... “

 

Javier Rúa-Jovet

 



+1-787-396-6511


twitter: @javrua


skype: javier.rua1


https://www.linkedin.com/in/javrua 


 






On Aug 8, 2018, at 8:14 AM, Greg Shatan <gregshatanipc at gmail.com> wrote:





Javier,



 


Can you please refresh my (our) recollection of that fact pattern? Thanks!


 


Greg


 


On Wed, Aug 8, 2018 at 7:15 AM Javier Rua <javrua at gmail.com> wrote:



Thx Greg!

 


What would you say to my “Apache Helicopter” fact pattern?




 

Javier Rúa-Jovet

 



+1-787-396-6511


twitter: @javrua


skype: javier.rua1


https://www.linkedin.com/in/javrua 


 






On Aug 8, 2018, at 1:33 AM, Greg Shatan <gregshatanipc at gmail.com> wrote:





Alexander,


 


Your anger and hurt are heard. Thanks for expressing your feelings so directly. 


 


Let's turn to the facts.


 


There's no "infringement" here. Overheated rhetoric won't make it so.  Words can have more than one meaning.  If a registry sets up a .brick TLD for use by the brick industry, it does not "infringe"
 on any right that Brick, New Jersey has.  There is simply no general principle that supports the idea that a "geo use" is a "better" use of a string with multiple meanings than a "non geo use."  


 


There are no "vultures" to be protected from.  They are no more real than Bigfoot, the Loch Ness monster or the monster under the bed when you were 6 years old.


 


Challenge processes (I don't want to use the "C___ R_____" term you have a knee-jerk reaction to) are a well-accepted method, in ICANN and everywhere else. Access to a form of due process does
 not translate to "anything goes" or "big money wins."  Quite the opposite -- it is a way to arrive at a fair result.  It may translate to "Geos don't always win" -- but that's completely appropriate.


 


I can't speak for NCSG or for ALAC, but in my view from an end-user perspective, a "geo use" is only one possible use of a multi-meaning string.  Many more end-users may be interested in a
 .coupon that is used for getting and using coupons that a .coupon that is used for Coupon, Pennsylvania.  There is no inherent preference for "geo uses."  "City constituencies" have the right to apply for appropriate gTLD strings, whether it's .Budapest or
 .Bucharest or .Bridgeport.  Nothing we do here will change that.  


 


As we move toward a series of consensus calls, it is particularly concerning to see Challenge Processes rejected out of hand and with such divisive rhetoric.  But it's better to know now if
 challenge processes can be part of a consensus recommendation from this group.  I would hope the answer would be "yes" But, if the answer is "no" -- as this "call to arms" suggests -- then we will have to move forward under those circumstances.  I don't think
 that will be helpful in reaching consensus on any recommendation, even some of the so-called "easy" ones.


 


Best regards,


 


Greg

 


On Tue, Aug 7, 2018 at 7:14 PM Alexander Schubert <alexander at schubert.berlin> wrote:




 


 


 


"Curative Rights"? 


 


Geo communities won't even know that vultures and brands are infringing on their identities. Especially not once we go into continuous application mode in a few years.


 


GAC members should be VERY ALARMED. "Curative Rights" is a thinly veiled eulogy for "anything goes" and "big money wins". The rights of geo communities and their constituents will be TRAMPLED on.


 


In the 1600s and 1700s Europeans set out to stake claims in every corner of the world. Unchallenged. Their prey being vulnerable and without defense. Colonialism! It wiped out populations of ENTIRE CONTINENTS  (e.g. North America). 


 


What is being peddled here is just the same in the age of claiming DNS land on top level:


Venture Capital will marry Vulture Culture - together they will colonize the geo-TLD world. To make big bucks - on the back of vulnerable communities.


 


Europe, Asia, South America and Africa should stand up to cyber colonialism. It cannot be that "their lands" are brute-force taken AGAIN. 


 


Sizeable cities are as important (and their geo gTLDs as impacting for their city constituents) as small countries. I would wish we collectively mature up and recognize that truth. "Curative Rights" ain't enough. Where are ALAC or the NCSG?
 It would be THEIR job to defend city constituencies. Do they even know what's playing out here? 


 


Btw: I wish we could stop calling it "governmental support". For many that sounds like FEDERAL GOVERNMENT. Nothing could be more wrong. It's the CITY'S representatives who are tasked to provide support. They know the needs of their city
 best - they have been ELECTED to represent the city's constituent's interests. 


 


Thanks,


 


Alexander 


 


 



Sent from my Samsung device






-------- Original message --------

From: Robin Gross <robin at ipjustice.org>


Date: 8/7/18 20:02 (GMT+02:00) 

To: Icann Gnso Newgtld Wg Wt5 <gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org>


Subject: Re: [Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5] WT5 Agenda, Work Plan & Consensus Call on Country & Territory Names - Please review before our call.




I agree with Greg and would add that many of us would be far less resistant to the concept of “geo names” if the underlying right/privilege provided was a curative right (rather than preventative).  For some, the biggest problem we have with “geo names” is
 the presumption of restrictions (in this case a “veto power” to a single actor) so moving discussion towards curative rights could be a very useful way of working toward an ultimate consensus.

 


Thanks,


Robin


 

 



On Aug 7, 2018, at 9:53 AM, Greg Shatan <gregshatanipc at gmail.com> wrote:

 



Christopher,



 


You can’t just throw the word “politically” into the middle of an unsupported claim and expect to be persuasive (or even understood).  I don’t see any reason or reasoning where would find “all geographic names” to be subject to any rules,
 much less preventative rules.  Quite the contrary.  Can you explain your use of “politically” and what that implies?  Where do you see politics coming into the ICANN policy-making process, and which politics are you referring to?


 


Curative procedures have been successfully invoked since the dawn of ICANN (and long, long before, in a multitude of settings) to allow someone to assert a claim against another party’s actions on the basis of agreed-upon standards.  To
 write off the entire concept as “unsuitable,” again without support, seems both extreme and premature.  New curative procedures were created for the 2012 round, and we could adapt those or create something different if we wanted to.  On a policy level, there’s
 absolutely no reason for curative procedures to be “unsuitable.”  Indeed, for reasons I very recently stated, they are far more suitable than preventative rights for the vast majority of terms with geographic meanings.  Helping them work appropriately is an
 implementation-level concern that should not impede good policy-making.


 


As a group trying to reach consensus, we should not put all of our eggs into the one basket of preventative measures — no matter how much some participants want us to do so.  I understand the allure of preventative processes over curative
 processes — you don’t need to watch anything, you don’t need to initiate anything, you don’t need to prove anything, and you don’t even need to explain anything.  It’s a completely one-sided approach — which is good for one-sided, slam-dunk situations.  Conversely,
 they are not particularly good where there are two sides to the story.  Perhaps there is a concern that in a “curative” process over terms with geographic meanings, the “objectors” will not be able to succeed very often — that often there really is no basis
 for a claim.  If that is the case, it is even more critical that we identify and agree upon the bases for these claims — whether they are exercised preventatively or curatively.  We can’t put (or keep) a preventative privilege in place without clear-cut reasons
 that this privilege exists, and clear-cut reasons that the claim must be granted preventative status.


 


Preventative rights are equivalent to “guilty until proven innocent,” except that there’s no forum for such proof — it is entirely at the discretion of the privilege-holder.  Curative rights, on the other hand, are “innocent until proven
 guilty,” with a forum and a process for that determination to be made by an uninterested entity/person(s).  I tend to prefer “innocent until proven guilty” as a general concept.


 


Best regards,


 


Greg


 


 


 


 




On Tue, Aug 7, 2018 at 7:22 AM 
lists at christopherwilkinson.eu Wilkinson <lists at christopherwilkinson.eu> wrote:



Dear Greg:
I expect that we shall find that, politically, all geographical names will be subject to preventative rules, at least in the first instance.
The existing 'curative' procedures appear to me to be quite unsuitable for global application at the level of disagregation that we are currently considering.
Regards
Christopher


 
 

El 7 de agosto de 2018 a las 7:46 Greg Shatan <gregshatanipc at gmail.com> escribió:


All,


 


Carlos wrote:


 


I just don't agree that the sole recommendation of WT5 that is going to be measure is a negative one: to restrict delegation of most geographic names. In my view recommendations should be
 framed in a positive manner, if possible. 


 


This reminded me that we have so far talked almost exclusively about what are generally called "preventive" processes (reserve lists, permission requirements, blocking lists, etc.), and very
 little about what are generally called "curative" processes (objections, dispute resolution processes, challenge processes, etc.).  By doing so, we've taken half the tools out of the toolkit.


 


I just finished working on the reconvened IGO-INGO Preventive Rights WG where we were dealing (at this point) with reserving/restricting national Red Cross/Red Crescent society names.  In this
 case, a preventive rights approach made sense -- the names of the various national societies are essentially unique, identified only with that one entity, third party uses are almost certainly done in bad faith and with bad intent, and there's no real underlying
 policy disagreement.  In some cases (e.g., name collisions, certain reserved names) there is also a strong technical component.  This is how preventive rights have generally been used in ICANN policy -- for "slam-dunk" cases.


 


There are few, if any, "slam-dunk" cases in our work.  A good case can be made for 2-letter letter-letter combinations.  Perhaps a good case can be made for some of the remaining classifications
 in this first set or potential recommendations.  However, as we move "down the list", so to speak, we get further away from "slam-dunk" situations.  We could potentially make more headway on some of the classifications of names if we considered "curative"
 processes, instead of being so intensely focused on "preventive" rights.  This tends to turn our discussions into "all or nothing" choices -- but this is a false menu, since there are other options aside from the binary "all/nothing" that should be on the
 menu.


 


Let's keep this in mind as we move forward.


 


Greg


 


 


 


On Mon, Aug 6, 2018 at 6:34 PM Robin Gross <robin at ipjustice.org> wrote:



I agree with Paul and think we should declare agreement where we have it, and build on that to find other agreement down the line.  The process is supposed to involve incremental steps and building blocks along the way, and that is how
 we will eventually arrive at a consensus.  To take the “nothing until everything” approach will keep us spinning our wheels indefinitely, cause confusion, and risks unexpected results, which is in no one’s interest.

 


Best,


Robin

 



On Aug 6, 2018, at 2:16 PM, McGrady, Paul D. <PMcGrady at winston.com> wrote:

 



I’m a little concerned with the “Nothing is agreed until everything is agreed” approach.  This isn’t a contract negotiation, it is
 a consensus building exercise.  If we have to wait until every topic has been discussed and we think we have 100% agreement on all topics before we take a consensus call on individual topics, this WG will never find an end point. 


 


Best,


Paul


 


 


 




From: Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5
 <gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5-bounces at icann.org> On
 Behalf Of lists at christopherwilkinson.eu Wilkinson

Sent: Monday, August 6, 2018 4:09 PM

To: Martin Sutton <martin at brandregistrygroup.org>

Cc: gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org

Subject: Re: [Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5] WT5 Agenda,
 Work Plan & Consensus Call on Country & Territory Names - Please review before our call.




 

Dear Co-Leads and Martin:
I disagree with the method proposed. 
1. It is premature to start consensus calls on certain restricted topics when other more critical topics have not yet been discussed.



2.  Nothing is agreed until everything is agreed.



Regards
CW
 
 


El 6 de agosto de 2018 a las 21:06 Martin Sutton <martin at brandregistrygroup.org>
 escribió:



Hi Christopher,



 




In order to progress the building of the Initial Report, the agenda is designed to focus on how we will achieve this and begin to gather recommendations where we find consensus.
 Item 4 was raised on the last call and members were requested to continue discussions over the email list, although this has been somewhat quiet probably due to holiday periods. 




 




We encourage you to use the email list for elaborating on non-AGB categories, this will then help towards further discussions on the call. By experience of the discussions
 relating to non-capital cities, please provide a sound argument/rationale for any suggestions for the group to consider, rather than simply stating a request. 




 




Kind regards,




 




Martin

Sent from my iPhone





On 6 Aug 2018, at 15:25, lists at christopherwilkinson.eu Wilkinson
 <lists at christopherwilkinson.eu> wrote:



Dear Co-Leads:  May I request that point 4 of the proposed agenda be moved up to point 1.
Some participants, including myself, have only persevered with WT5 in-order to discuss the non-AGB terms.
These include :
-  all other geographical terms
-  geographical indications
-  several groups of regional, cultural, economic and linguistic names.
Thankyou and regards
Christopher Wilkinson


El 6 de agosto de 2018 a las 14:42 Martin Sutton <martin at brandregistrygroup.org> escribió:




Dear Work Track members,




 




Please find below the proposed agenda for the WT5 call on Wednesday 8 August at 13:00 UTC:




 




1. Welcome/Agenda Review/SOI Updates

2. Review of Consensus Call Process and Work Plan

3. Consensus Call on Country and Territory Names

4. Wrap Up - Non-AGB Terms

5. AOB




 




On our upcoming call, the leadership team will introduce a work plan aimed at wrapping up WT5’s work and delivering an Initial Report by the end of September. In maintaining this timeline, the leadership is
 seeking to ensure that Work Track 5 inputs can be effectively integrated into the work of the broader New gTLD Subsequent Procedures PDP Working Group in time for delivery of the PDP’s Final Report. A copy of the work plan is attached.




 




As outlined in the work plan, the leadership team will be holding a series of consensus calls on potential recommendations to include in WT5’s Initial Report. These will be introduced in clusters, with the
 first set of recommendations focusing on country and territory names. The draft recommendations, which will be discussed on Wednesday, are attached. Work
 Track members are encouraged to review and provide feedback on these draft recommendations prior to the call on Wednesday. The leadership team will officially open the consensus call on this topic following Wednesday’s call. For more information
 on the consensus call process that will be followed, please see the GNSO Working Group Guidelines, Section 3.6:https://gnso.icann.org/sites/default/files/file/field-file-attach/annex-1-gnso-wg-guidelines-18jun18-en.pdf [gnso.icann.org].




 




If you need a dial out for the upcoming call or would like to send an apology, please email gnso-secs at icann.org.




 




Kind regards,




 




WT5 Co-Leads




Annebeth Lange




Javier Rua




Olga Cavalli




Martin Sutton




 






 




 




 








 




 




 




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