[Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5] Notes and Action Items - New gTLD Subsequent Procedures PDP Work Track 5 - 11 July 2018

Robin Gross robin at ipjustice.org
Fri Jul 20 20:31:57 UTC 2018


I completely agree and add there is nothing to stop any locality from applying for a string, should they wish too.  

Bestowing on anyone (including govts) the automatic right to prevent a string by requiring permission to use a word is antithetical to the principle of "permissionless innovation”, a key principle for a free and open Internet (and big reason for its success).

Robin

> On Jul 20, 2018, at 1:22 PM, Paul Rosenzweig <paul.rosenzweig at redbranchconsulting.com> wrote:
> 
> +1 for this.  The discussion continues to make me think that any solution we would propose would only be arbitrary, capable of rent-seeking, and in the end utterly unworkable.
>  
> Paul
>  
> Paul Rosenzweig
> paul.rosenzweig at redbranchconsulting.com <mailto:paul.rosenzweig at redbranchconsulting.com>
> O: +1 (202) 547-0660
> M: +1 (202) 329-9650
> VOIP: +1 (202) 738-1739
> www.redbranchconsulting.com <http://www.redbranchconsulting.com/>
> My PGP Key: https://keys.mailvelope.com/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x9A830097CA066684 <https://keys.mailvelope.com/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x9A830097CA066684>
>  
>  
> From: Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 <gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5-bounces at icann.org> On Behalf Of McGrady, Paul D.
> Sent: Friday, July 20, 2018 4:02 PM
> To: Kris Seeburn <seeburn.k at gmail.com>; Maureen Hilyard <maureen.hilyard at gmail.com>
> Cc: Icann Gnso Newgtld Wg Wt5 <gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org>
> Subject: Re: [Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5] Notes and Action Items - New gTLD Subsequent Procedures PDP Work Track 5 - 11 July 2018
>  
> Thanks Alexander.
>  
> Just to clarify the record, I didn’t suggest in the call that .bingo had to seek approvals from all those cities in the last round.  It was introduced as an example of how ridiculous this can get if we go down the slippery slope of expanding censorship in the top level any further than it has already been extended.  Perhaps something was lost in the translation.  
>  
> Regarding Paris, there are dozens of places that bear that name (which originated in Greek mythology, by the way, and not in France).  I’ve copied them at the end.  Under a strict reading of the AGB from the last round, an applicant would have had to get a letter from the government of each of these places.  A very silly rule.
>  
> Regarding your “Clearwater” place holder, let’s swap in Toledo instead.  Toledo, Spain has been around since about the time of Christ and currently has a population of 83,000.  Toledo, Ohio, has been around only since 1833 but has a population of nearly  651,429, many times that of the little city in Spain.  This is not even to mention the over a dozen other places named Toledo.  Your suggestion that a GAC rep may speak for the people of such cities implies that there would be some GAC approval process, again for dozens of places, none of which has any more right to the word “Toledo” than the next place.  So your “Clearwater” scenario is named exactly backwards– it muddies the waters, it doesn’t clear them.
>  
> None of the above scenarios lead to simplicity or predictability, two of our core principles.
>  
> Also, thanks to Maureen who proposes “(1) population (2) country – legitimacy”
>  
> Toledo is a great example of Ohio being the largest Toledo but Spain being the oldest.  So, Toledo, Ohio would “win” which means free speech would win since Toledo, Ohio is located in a jurisdiction that prevents governments from stifling the speech of its citizens.  But does that make Toledo, Spain any less legitimate?  The answer, in my mind, is “no” since neither place has any legitimate claim to the word “Toledo” sufficient to keep it from being written as a top level domain name.  
>  
> Folks, I think we have to stop trying to create rights for governments that they haven’t even legislated for themselves.  ICANN is not the place to introduce new legislation – the community has enough trouble on our hands just trying to get ICANN’s policies in alignment with actual laws.  It doesn’t do us any good to cook up compliance with non-existent laws – thus over engineering the next round and setting it up for confusion disputes, and extra costs.
>  
> Best,
> Paul
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
> Places[edit <https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Paris_(disambiguation)&action=edit&section=3&editintro=Template:Disambig_editintro>]
> Canada[edit <https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Paris_(disambiguation)&action=edit&section=4&editintro=Template:Disambig_editintro>]
> ·        Paris, Ontario <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris,_Ontario>, a community
> ·        Paris, Yukon <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris,_Yukon>, a former community
> United States[edit <https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Paris_(disambiguation)&action=edit&section=5&editintro=Template:Disambig_editintro>]
> ·        Paris, Arkansas <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris,_Arkansas>, a city
> ·        Paris, Idaho <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris,_Idaho>, a city
> ·        Paris, Illinois <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris,_Illinois>, a city
> ·        Paris, Indiana <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris,_Indiana>, an unincorporated community
> ·        Paris, Iowa <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris,_Iowa>, an unincorporated community
> ·        Paris, Kentucky <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris,_Kentucky>, a city
> ·        Paris, Maine <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris,_Maine>, a town
> ·        Paris, an unincorporated community in Green Charter Township, Michigan <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Charter_Township,_Michigan>
> ·        Paris, Mississippi <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris,_Mississippi>, an unincorporated community
> ·        Paris, Missouri <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris,_Missouri>, a city
> ·        Paris, New Hampshire <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris,_New_Hampshire>, an unincorporated community
> ·        Paris, New York <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris,_New_York>, a town
> ·        Paris, Portage County, Ohio <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris,_Portage_County,_Ohio>, an unincorporated community
> ·        Paris, Stark County, Ohio <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris,_Stark_County,_Ohio>, an unincorporated community
> ·        Paris, Oregon <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris,_Oregon>, an unincorporated community
> ·        Paris, Pennsylvania <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris,_Pennsylvania>, a census-designated place
> ·        Paris, Tennessee <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris,_Tennessee>, a city
> ·        Paris, Texas <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris,_Texas>, a city
> ·        Paris, Virginia <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris,_Virginia>, an unincorporated community
> ·        Paris, Wisconsin (disambiguation) <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris,_Wisconsin_(disambiguation)>, several Wisconsin localities
> ·        Paris Township (disambiguation) <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_Township_(disambiguation)>, several US localities
> ·        Beresford, South Dakota <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beresford,_South_Dakota>, a city formerly called Paris
> ·        Loraine, California <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loraine,_California>, an unincorporated community formerly called Paris
> ·        Paris Mountain, South Carolina - see Paris Mountain State Park <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_Mountain_State_Park>
> ·        Paris Mountain <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_Mountain>, Virginia
> Other[edit <https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Paris_(disambiguation)&action=edit&section=6&editintro=Template:Disambig_editintro>]
> ·        Paris, Denmark <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris,_Denmark>, a hamlet in Jutland
> ·        Paris, Kiribati <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris,_Kiribati>, in the central Pacific Ocean
> ·        París, Herrera <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Par%C3%ADs,_Herrera>, Panama, a corregimiento or subdistrict
> ·        Paris Basin <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_Basin>, a geological region of France
> ·        Paris Peak <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_Peak>, Anvers Island, Antarctica
> ·        3317 Paris <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3317_Paris>, a minor planet named after the legendary figure of the Trojan War
>  
>  
> Belize[edit <https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Toledo&action=edit&section=2&editintro=Template:Disambig_editintro>]
> ·        Toledo District <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toledo_District>
> ·        Toledo Settlement <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toledo_Settlement>
> Brazil[edit <https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Toledo&action=edit&section=3&editintro=Template:Disambig_editintro>]
> ·        Toledo, Minas Gerais <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toledo,_Minas_Gerais>
> ·        Toledo, Paraná <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toledo,_Paran%C3%A1>
> Colombia[edit <https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Toledo&action=edit&section=4&editintro=Template:Disambig_editintro>]
> ·        Toledo, Norte de Santander <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toledo,_Norte_de_Santander>
> Philippines[edit <https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Toledo&action=edit&section=5&editintro=Template:Disambig_editintro>]
> ·        Toledo, Cebu <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toledo,_Cebu>
> Spain[edit <https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Toledo&action=edit&section=6&editintro=Template:Disambig_editintro>]
> ·        Taifa of Toledo <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taifa_of_Toledo> (1010-1085)
> ·        Kingdom of Toledo <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Toledo> (1085–1833)
> ·        Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Toledo <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholic_Archdiocese_of_Toledo>
> ·        Toledo (Spanish Congress electoral district) <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toledo_(Spanish_Congress_electoral_district)>
> United States[edit <https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Toledo&action=edit&section=7&editintro=Template:Disambig_editintro>]
> ·        Toledo, Illinois <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toledo,_Illinois>, a village
> ·        Toledo, Iowa <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toledo,_Iowa>, a small town
> ·        Toledo, Kansas <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toledo,_Kansas>, an unincorporated community
> ·        Toledo, Callaway County, Missouri <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toledo,_Callaway_County,_Missouri>, an unincorporated community
> ·        Toledo, Ozark County, Missouri <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toledo,_Ozark_County,_Missouri>, an unincorporated community
> ·        Toledo, Ohio <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toledo,_Ohio>
> ·        Toledo, Oregon <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toledo,_Oregon>, a small town
> ·        Toledo, Washington <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toledo,_Washington>, a small city
> ·        Toldeo, Texas <https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Toldeo,_Texas&action=edit&redlink=1>, a small town
> Uruguay[edit <https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Toledo&action=edit&section=8&editintro=Template:Disambig_editintro>]
> ·        Toledo, Uruguay <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toledo,_Uruguay>
>  
>  
> From: Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 <gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5-bounces at icann.org <mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5-bounces at icann.org>> On Behalf Of Kris Seeburn
> Sent: Friday, July 20, 2018 2:39 PM
> To: Maureen Hilyard <maureen.hilyard at gmail.com <mailto:maureen.hilyard at gmail.com>>
> Cc: Icann Gnso Newgtld Wg Wt5 <gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org <mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org>>
> Subject: Re: [Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5] Notes and Action Items - New gTLD Subsequent Procedures PDP Work Track 5 - 11 July 2018
>  
> I was rethinking this and a way forward could be at this point taking capitals/cities into a second round. We still need to think business models as well. So at this point in time we could move Geonames to the three letter ISO and also country names in full as set out in ISO / UN recognition as well.
>  
> The population size could be very well thought of in a second phase of this workings. The longer we take to get to the other bits we may be stalling the whole process as well.So my take is get the first of these moving ahead. I was stating islands as i can take Seychelles has an overall population as a country of around 95,000 so imagine it’s capital “VICTORIA” or it’s other main Hub “MAHE”. There are also other countries or Islands we may have to think and cater for.
>  
> So my suggestion is to take into consideration the population size for sure but perhaps add a second variable which would be the country itself. Big countries in general may understand that you cannot just use or take names of capitals or other cities just like that without Govt approval. But the issue remains the awareness that needs to go down to ensure the required understanding. 
>  
> So perhaps two variables should be (1) population (2) country - legitimacy — perhaps that may go better with GAC as well as many others.
>  
> My two cents.
>  
> 
>> On Jul 20, 2018, at 22:56, Maureen Hilyard <maureen.hilyard at gmail.com <mailto:maureen.hilyard at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>  
>> +1 seems a very good argument to me
>>  
>> On Fri, Jul 20, 2018 at 7:44 AM, Kris Seeburn <seeburn.k at gmail.com <mailto:seeburn.k at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>> Alex
>>>  
>>> Sounds like a pretty good way forward.  Perhaps as you say population size should also be based on the country applying as some are also islands and may not be having a large population like New York, Paris and loads of others.   
>>>  
>>> kris
>>>  
>>> 
>>>> On Jul 20, 2018, at 21:22, Alexander Schubert <alexander at schubert.berlin <mailto:alexander at schubert.berlin>> wrote:
>>>>  
>>>> Hi group,
>>>> 
>>>> during the last call and in its chat were some serious conflations of facts. Let me explain the fact base on the floated examples of “.bingo”, “.paris” and I am adding “.clearwater” (“Clearwater” being a placeholder for any “city” like “Clearwater” in Florida which has 100k+ inhabitants, is probably know by every single American and every single German, might be confused with “unspoiled water” – but Google finds obviously ONLY city related content.)
>>>> 
>>>> We had a new gTLD round. It was in 2012 – applicants had to follow the rules of the application guidelines for it. That’s our base. The rules are quite specific and it would be nice if group members read them at least ONCE (the chat contributions made it painful clear that not everybody here has read the city related new gTLD policies of the 2012 AGB).
>>>> 
>>>> ·       BINGO:
>>>> If in 2012 some brand or generic term applicant had applied for .bingo and there would be a non-capital city “Bingo”; that city would NOT have to be asked for Government support if .bingo was declared as non-geo use application! The notion that every city “Bingo” had to be asked for permission is ridiculous and bares any fact basis. 
>>>> ·       .paris:
>>>> Any applicant for any city or brand “PARIS” would have been required to get the approval of the French Capital. To my understanding if the geo-use was intended then from all other places that qualify as “city” as well! We might look into the formulation “relevant Government” and “associated with the city name”: Paris Texas has 25k people, is a city, and the city’s name is “Texas”. To my understanding any application that declares geo-use (even if by the French capital) they would have had to acquire Government support from Paris, TX as well (please discuss, please correct me if you identify evidence to the contrary). I do not see that the French capital was prioritized over Paris, TX. 
>>>> ·       .clearwater:
>>>> In the call somebody questioned why “The City” (some city) had any fundamental issues if a gTLD like “.clearwater” (which I use as a fictional example for any small city) was applied for by e.g. a beverage company with a brand “CLEAR WATER”.
>>>> I am not going to speak on behalf of cites (as in “government bodies”): maybe some GAC member could do that! I am caring about the CONSTITUENTS in that city! The businesses. The People! The organizations. It is THOSE who have a potentially terrible loss: YOU ARE SQUATTING ON THEIR NAME. It can’t be that the marketing desire of a beverage brand tops the freedom of expression and identity of tens or worse HUNDREDS of thousands of citizens!
>>>>  
>>>> So all in all: Brands and generic applicants faced more or less ZERO “resistance” in the 2012 AGB – as they could always claim the non-geo use. What is being discussed currently (and yes for full disclosure: I am the initiator of that idea):
>>>> ·       In the 2012 AGB we already eliminated the non-geo use for capitals and 3166 Alpha-2 regions!
>>>> ·       BIG cities are as important – and too many people and stakeholders would suffer from city name grabbing on top-level in the DNS
>>>> ·       The solution is to elevate at least sizeable cities to the protection level of capital cities!
>>>> ·       A cut-off measure has to be defined – e.g. population size
>>>>  
>>>>  
>>>> Thanks,
>>>>  
>>>> Alexander Schubert
>>>>  
>>>> 
>>>>  
>>>>  
>>>> From: Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 [mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5-bounces at icann.org <mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5-bounces at icann.org>] On Behalf Of Julie Hedlund
>>>> Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2018 12:10 AM
>>>> To: gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org <mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org>
>>>> Subject: [Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5] Notes and Action Items - New gTLD Subsequent Procedures PDP Work Track 5 - 11 July 2018
>>>>  
>>>> Dear Work Track 5 members,
>>>>  
>>>> Please see below the action items and notes from the meeting today (11 July).  These high-level notes are designed to help WG members navigate through the content of the call and are not a substitute for the recording, transcript, or the chat, which will be posted on the wiki.
>>>>  
>>>> See also the attached slides as well as the Working Document at: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1BRzHr2FxSTYHX1I8F3FHSt6Bo1cvJsKyWX8WZXRUXAo/edit <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdocs.google.com%2Fdocument%2Fd%2F1BRzHr2FxSTYHX1I8F3FHSt6Bo1cvJsKyWX8WZXRUXAo%2Fedit&data=02%7C01%7Cpmcgrady%40winston.com%7Cdb15f0d902484827682608d5ee7885ee%7C12a8aae45e2f4ad8adab9375a84aa3e5%7C0%7C0%7C636677123764221322&sdata=E1boSeyGtZsKbrr0Ac8d1sDn%2FAu5cwURV1QRYRHLsBo%3D&reserved=0>. 
>>>>  
>>>> Kind regards,
>>>> Julie
>>>> Julie Hedlund, Policy Director
>>>>  
>>>>  
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>  
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Kris Seeburn
>>> seeburn.k at gmail.com <mailto:seeburn.k at gmail.com>
>>> LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/kseeburn/ <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.linkedin.com%2Fin%2Fkseeburn%2F&data=02%7C01%7Cpmcgrady%40winston.com%7Cdb15f0d902484827682608d5ee7885ee%7C12a8aae45e2f4ad8adab9375a84aa3e5%7C0%7C0%7C636677123764221322&sdata=FP%2BXKIn9d9mv64v4skIZTCRvXnZzbJK2H1781kzepOs%3D&reserved=0>
>>> 
>>> "Life is a Beach, it all depends at how you look at it"
>>> 
>>> <KeepItOn_Social_animated.gif> 
>>>  
>>> 
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>>  
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Kris Seeburn
> seeburn.k at gmail.com <mailto:seeburn.k at gmail.com>
> LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/kseeburn/ <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.linkedin.com%2Fin%2Fkseeburn%2F&data=02%7C01%7Cpmcgrady%40winston.com%7Cdb15f0d902484827682608d5ee7885ee%7C12a8aae45e2f4ad8adab9375a84aa3e5%7C0%7C0%7C636677123764221322&sdata=FP%2BXKIn9d9mv64v4skIZTCRvXnZzbJK2H1781kzepOs%3D&reserved=0>
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> "Life is a Beach, it all depends at how you look at it"
> 
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