[Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5] Qualifying the threshold for requirement of letters of non-objection!

Marita Moll mmoll at ca.inter.net
Fri Jun 8 00:48:11 UTC 2018


Well, maybe we can assume that it would always go to the city of 500,000 
because of the number of people who would be directly negatively 
affected if the name went to beer brand. Could that be considered a 
neutral measure?

Marita Moll


On 6/7/2018 8:34 PM, Maureen Hilyard wrote:
> THAT is the question....
>
> On Thu, Jun 7, 2018 at 2:23 PM, Marita Moll <mmoll at ca.inter.net 
> <mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net>> wrote:
>
>     Just on the final thought below: I wonder what kinds of neutral
>     measures there could be to measure applications. If a city of
>     500,000 comes along with the same name as a hamlet of 500 and a
>     brand of beer -- all seeking to acquire the same string -- under
>     what conditions would the name NOT go to the large city.
>
>     Marita Moll
>
>
>     On 6/2/2018 3:08 AM, Liz Williams wrote:
>>     The challenge with these kind of cut off
>>     numbers/percentages/qualifiers is that they don’t recognise the
>>     realities of
>>
>>     A)  numerous examples of where this just doesn’t work when
>>     generic words clash with trademarks which clash with geographic
>>     terms where no one right is more valid than any other.
>>     B) competing applications (from the Perths or Londons or Rocks)
>>     of the world which could be some of the largest cities in the
>>     world to the tiniest island towns that want to connect their
>>     unique identity to the global internet
>>     C) legitimate dissent where a geographic location is contested
>>     (in all forms of geographic and cultural contest) but where it is
>>     entirely feasible for a legitimate application to be submitted
>>     for which freedom of expression is paramount.  Mandating support
>>     or “non-objection” is a guarantee of failure where the applicant
>>     may have different views to the government of the day.
>>
>>     We must think clearly about neutral measures for evaluators to
>>     measure applications…not coming up with select lists which we
>>     will, guaranteed, get wrong.
>>     Liz
>>     ….
>>     Dr Liz Williams | International Affairs
>>     .au Domain Administration Ltd
>>     M: +61 436 020 595 | +44 7824 877757
>>     E: liz.williams at auda.org.au <mailto:liz.williams at auda.org.au>
>>     www.auda.org.au <http://www.auda.org.au>
>>
>>     Important Notice
>>     This email may contain information which is confidential and/or
>>     subject to legal privilege, and is intended for the use of the
>>     named addressee only. If you are not the intended recipient,
>>     you must not use, disclose or copy any part of this email. If
>>     you have received this email by mistake, please notify the sender
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>>
>>>     On 2 Jun 2018, at 12:15 pm, Justine Chew <justine.chew at gmail.com
>>>     <mailto:justine.chew at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>>     Alexander,
>>>
>>>     I very much like the idea of a percentage of citizens of a
>>>     nation as consideration for qualifying select list of cities in
>>>     order to not exclude smaller cities from protective measures
>>>     enjoyed by capital cities and ISO 3166 Alpha-2 subnational
>>>     regions. Percentages would work much better than absolute values.
>>>
>>>     Thank
>>>     ​ you for suggesting this.​
>>>
>>>
>>>     Justine
>>>     -----
>>>
>>>     On 1 June 2018 at 23:28, Alexander Schubert
>>>     <alexander at schubert.berlin <mailto:alexander at schubert.berlin>>
>>>     wrote:
>>>
>>>         Greg,
>>>
>>>         So in other words folks who are trying to preserve identity
>>>         rights for city inhabitants are “GEO Supremacists” in your
>>>         eyes? I assume you just want to showcase your extreme
>>>         displeasure with the suggested protective measures. Just
>>>         search “USA supremacy” in google.com <http://google.com/>;
>>>         and you know why it hurts to be called a “supremacist”.
>>>         Maybe you weren’t aware how insulting the term is.
>>>
>>>
>>>         But trying to stay on the topic matter:
>>>
>>>         ·*I think we have reached general agreement that the public
>>>         representatives for inhabitants of certain geo-entities
>>>         deserve the unilateral right to vet an identical gTLD
>>>         application.*
>>>
>>>         oAnd in the languages that matters! See Moscow: Even when
>>>         only a smaller percentage of Muscovites speaks English – the
>>>         gTLD is bilingual; one gTLD in English and an IDN version in
>>>         Russian. Just the local language isn’t enough in a
>>>         globalized world. I am a good example in this case: For my
>>>         Russian traveling I use schubert.moscow – and I wouldn’t
>>>         want an IDN version. I hope it’s not too “supremacist” when
>>>         a metropole desires their well-known global brand in the
>>>         English language as well (being a capital or not – Moscow
>>>         was covered as it is capital).
>>>
>>>         ·*Examples of the above mentioned agreed on protective
>>>         measures are capital cities or ISO 3166 Alpha-2 subnational
>>>         regions. *
>>>
>>>         ·*My suggestion is that we extend the same rights to cities
>>>         once these meet a certain threshold.*
>>>
>>>         oYou suggest that this should be a “select list”. So we have
>>>         to define the threshold that defines the “list”. This could
>>>         be an absolute number of inhabitants – or a percentage of
>>>         citizens – or the lower of both values. Example: the city
>>>         needs to have at minimum 250,000 inhabitants – or at least
>>>         2.5% of the nation’s population. The exact measures need to
>>>         be explored. This way in countries with less than 10 Million
>>>         people (and that is WELL more than half of all countries in
>>>         the world) slightly smaller cities are protected as well.
>>>         Latvia has 2 Million people – 2.5% equals 50,000! That
>>>         protects 4 cities aside of the capital.
>>>
>>>         ·*If a city doesn’t make the “select list” the 2012 AGB
>>>         rules apply:  government support only required if geo-use
>>>         intent.*
>>>
>>>         Thanks,
>>>
>>>         Alexander
>>>
>>>         *From:*Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5
>>>         [mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5-bounces at icann.org
>>>         <mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5-bounces at icann.org>] *On Behalf
>>>         Of *Greg Shatan
>>>         *Sent:* Freitag, 1. Juni 2018 06:44
>>>         *To:* Marita Moll <mmoll at ca.inter.net
>>>         <mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net>>
>>>
>>>
>>>         *Cc:* gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org
>>>         <mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org>
>>>         *Subject:* Re: [Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5] Qualifying the
>>>         threshold for requirement of letters of non-objection!
>>>
>>>         I’m in favor of TLDs being applied for and used as city TLDs
>>>         by those cities or on their behalf.
>>>
>>>         I’m open to the idea that a very small and  select list of
>>>         cities would have veto/blocking/consent/non-objection
>>>         privileges (practically, they’re all pretty much the same)
>>>         over any use of a string identical to their name (in the
>>>         language of  that city), even for non-geo uses.
>>>
>>>         I’m open to the idea of a larger group of cities that would
>>>         have those privileges, but only in the context of use in
>>>         connection with that city.
>>>
>>>         I’m not in favor of a general rule based on the
>>>         geosupremacist idea that a geo use is superior to all other
>>>         uses.  I’m really not in favor of a general rule that
>>>         non-use/non-application for geo purposes should get in the
>>>         way of an application for another use of that same string.
>>>
>>>         Strings have multiple meanings and uses.  There is no
>>>         general rule of a hierarchy of rights among legitimate uses
>>>         of that string. There is certainly no hierarchy that puts
>>>         geo uses at the  top of the list every time.
>>>
>>>         Greg
>>>
>>>         On Thu, May 31, 2018 at 7:54 PM Marita Moll
>>>         <mmoll at ca.inter.net <mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net>> wrote:
>>>
>>>             I know I am a bit late in tuning into these thoughts by
>>>             Alexander. But it's never too late to say "well said."
>>>
>>>             I am reminded that, in it's earliest days, the Internet
>>>             itself was considered a public resource. Even the
>>>             slightest bit of advertising was shunned! We have come a
>>>             long way from there. But we still have a chance to
>>>             retain some of that original spirit. The city domain
>>>             name space could be seen and managed as a resource for
>>>             public benefit as Alexander suggests.
>>>
>>>             And that would have to be by design."It doesn't happen
>>>             by accident." __
>>>
>>>             Marita Moll
>>>
>>>             On 5/22/2018 11:34 AM, Alexander Schubert wrote:
>>>
>>>                 Dear Liz,
>>>
>>>                 I am a domain broker and “domainer” since 21 years
>>>                 and have consequently analyzed the market from
>>>                 “inside” – ESPECIALLY when it comes to newly minted
>>>                 gTLDs. I have participated in all new gTLD
>>>                 introductions in the past, from .info, over .us
>>>                 (liberation in  2001), .eu and so on. And there is a
>>>                 FUNDAMENTAL difference between a historical grown
>>>                 name space like “.com” or a ccTLD and new name spaces:
>>>
>>>                 If 10% of names in .com or .de are speculative
>>>                 registrations - .com will survive just fine. No
>>>                 problem. But:
>>>                 A new gTLD is like a new “land” – best to be
>>>                 compared with for example Dubai. Imagine the rulers
>>>                 of Dubai had sold building lots for “cost value”;
>>>                 say for US $2,000 per lot. They would probably have
>>>                 sold high volumes – but unlikely that ANYTHING would
>>>                 have really being developed there. The “dirt” would
>>>                 have remained what it is: “dirt”. Speculators would
>>>                 have speculated.
>>>                 But wisely the Dubai rulers demanded from all land
>>>                 buyers to DEVELOP their land – and build something;
>>>                 “something” that by now is the sparkling community
>>>                 we all know: DUBAI!
>>>
>>>                 In Chicago there were several blocks of sub premium
>>>                 land. Some people bought houses cheaply – and did
>>>                 NOTHING. But others developed the land around – and
>>>                 made the area “valuable”. Guess how the people who
>>>                 bought cheap and then waited until the area became
>>>                 valuable were called? No. Not “clever investors”.
>>>                 They were labeled “free-riders”. They bought cheap
>>>                 and did nothing – waited for the land to “mature” –
>>>                 then sold for prices that were high due to the work
>>>                 of others. That’s what “domain investors” do: they
>>>                 buy the premium land – let it sit for 5 to 10 years
>>>                 – THEN SELL for 1,000 times the “investment”.
>>>                 “Clever”? Nope: Mismanagement, free-Riding and
>>>                 damages the name-space: nothing is being developed –
>>>                 no “Sparkling Dubai” – all remains dirt. Legal – but
>>>                 doesn’t really advance the experience of the
>>>                 Internet user.
>>>
>>>                 It’s all a question of public benefit philosophy –
>>>                 or the absence of any.
>>>
>>>                 Regarding “local business”:
>>>                 Yes, of course one could argue that a domain
>>>                 tires.denver owned by speculator and operating a
>>>                 tires.com <http://tires.com/> Affiliate website
>>>                 isn’t too bad. After all people in Denver can buy
>>>                 tires on the website, and the domain owner “invested
>>>                 funds”, the registry got some money in the premium
>>>                 auction (e.g. US $2k – even if the domain is worth
>>>                 US $50k), and: “all OK, no?”. Free market, and let
>>>                 the registry do what they want.
>>>                 My view on this:  A city gTLD is a VALUABLE
>>>                 RESCOURCE, that should aid the city community. It
>>>                 should be MANAGED – and ideally in a way that
>>>                 impacting domains like business verticals are
>>>                 supporting LOCAL business. The U.S. is CHOKING on a
>>>                 gigantic import-export deficit: stuff is being
>>>                 bought ABROAD instead nationally. The same is true
>>>                 for local communities: The Internet serves as a
>>>                 Trojan horse to shift local business outside the
>>>                 city.  Tires being bought at a tires.com
>>>                 <http://tires.com/> Affiliate site displayed at
>>>                 tires.denver shift revenue OUTSIDE Denver.
>>>                 Apartments leased via an Affiliate site at
>>>                 apartments.denver destroy local real estate
>>>                 businesses. This list goes on and on and on. The
>>>                 huge advantage of a locally MANAGED city gTLD is to
>>>                 ADVANCE LOCAL BUSINESS! Hence “.denver”! If you
>>>                 wanted to buy tires SOMEWHERE – then do it. But the
>>>                 very idea of a .city gTLD is that it promotes LOCAL
>>>                 BUSINESSES! And that doesn’t happen by “accident” –
>>>                 it has to be promoted and MANAGED. And the ones who
>>>                 do that best are the local business constituencies –
>>>                 business associations, chambers, etc.!
>>>
>>>                 Imagine somebody bought a wood (large property full
>>>                 of trees) for cheap money – and would harvest ALL
>>>                 trees, and sell them at once: Yes, they would make a
>>>                 profit. Is it good for the land? Nope – the land
>>>                 will erode. Hence laws and rules regulate wood
>>>                 harvesting. It’s the same with city gTLDs. Selling
>>>                 all the premium domains in SEDO auctions to
>>>                 “investors” makes money – and drives registration
>>>                 volume: but it deprives the namespace of creating
>>>                 “beacon” domains that serve as brand ambassadors for
>>>                 the city gTLD.
>>>
>>>                 Took me a few years to develop all these thoughts. I
>>>                 am thinking about community name spaces since 2004.
>>>                 I love earning money – but I love even more when I
>>>                 serve people while doing so. Not all life is about
>>>                 making cash fast.
>>>
>>>                 So when a city Government is being presented with a
>>>                 city constituencies funded, owned, managed and
>>>                 marketed “non-profit” effort to advance the city –
>>>                 and on the other hand with an operator that merely
>>>                 “makes the namespace available”: let the cities
>>>                 representatives decide. I agree with you: ICANN
>>>                 should NOT “tell applicants where to base their
>>>                 business” or how to operate it. It’s fine when there
>>>                 are offshore based portfolio applicants with large
>>>                 amounts of VC money running around and trying to
>>>                 convince cities to operate a valuable and important
>>>                 city infrastructure. But allow the city to decide
>>>                 whom they pick – don’t let VC money “brute force”
>>>                 ownership of city namespaces.
>>>
>>>                 Btw: Sadly the “managing” part wasn’t well developed
>>>                 in the first batch of city gTLDs. I think this will
>>>                 dramatically change in the next round.
>>>
>>>
>>>                 Thanks,
>>>
>>>                 Alexander
>>>
>>>                 *From:*Liz Williams [mailto:liz.williams at auda.org.au
>>>                 <mailto:liz.williams at auda.org.au>]
>>>                 *Sent:* Dienstag, 22. Mai 2018 06:39
>>>                 *To:* Alexander Schubert <alexander at schubert.berlin>
>>>                 <mailto:alexander at schubert.berlin>
>>>                 *Cc:* gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org
>>>                 <mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org>
>>>                 *Subject:* Re: [Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5] Qualifying the
>>>                 threshold for requirement of letters of non-objection!
>>>
>>>                 Hello Alexander
>>>
>>>                 I wanted to explore a little further your assertion
>>>                 that an applicant for a geo-TLD should be locally
>>>                 based.  Our freedom of expression/civil liberties
>>>                 colleagues will have a better handle on those
>>>                 imperatives but I wonder why one would expect an
>>>                 applicant to be located in the community when, for
>>>                 example, a geographic domain name label may be a
>>>                 means of expressing dissent or difference from the
>>>                 current government? It is not a pre-requisite for
>>>                 ICANN to be telling applicants who meet the
>>>                 evaluation criteria that they should be “local”.  
>>>                 We also know that the Internet enables us to be
>>>                 wherever we want to be to do business…that is one of
>>>                 the most amazing characteristics of the Internet.
>>>
>>>                 It is also not desirable for ICANN to tell
>>>                 applicants where they should locate their
>>>                 businesses. Organisations legitimately and perfectly
>>>                 legally choose the registered location for  their
>>>                 business based on, for example, tax treatment, ease
>>>                 of doing business, rule of law, incentives for
>>>                 entrepreneurs, bandwidth and timezone. Those are all
>>>                 good things we wouldn’t want to interfere with.
>>>
>>>                 I doubt that it is supportable to have a prohibition
>>>                 on entities applying for several geographic labels. 
>>>                 What if it were a good thing that an expert registry
>>>                 operator was able to provide services to communities
>>>                 in unique and attractive ways?  I would have thought
>>>                 that is a nice niche business that could benefit
>>>                 communities in good ways?
>>>
>>>                 And finally, I don’t understand the problem with
>>>                 domain investors. Those domain name owners are
>>>                 legitimate purchasers of domain names at the second
>>>                 level.  Many registry operators are propped up by
>>>                 those investors and the secondary domain name market
>>>                 is active and mature which is another indicator of
>>>                 competition and consumer choice.  I think we can all
>>>                 agree that mis-using a domain name, whoever owns it,
>>>                 isn’t a desirable market outcome but there are
>>>                 measures in place to deal with that.
>>>
>>>                 Looking forward to the views of others.
>>>
>>>                 Liz
>>>
>>>                 ….
>>>                 Dr Liz Williams | International Affairs
>>>                 .au Domain Administration Ltd
>>>                 M: +61 436 020 595 | +44 7824 877757
>>>                 E: liz.williams at auda.org.au
>>>                 <mailto:liz.williams at auda.org.au> www.auda.org.au
>>>                 <http://www.auda.org.au/>
>>>
>>>                 Important Notice
>>>                 This email may contain information which
>>>                 is confidential and/or subject to legal privilege,
>>>                 and is intended for the use of the named addressee
>>>                 only. If you are not the intended recipient,
>>>                 you must not use, disclose or copy any part of this
>>>                 email. If you have received this email by mistake,
>>>                 please notify the sender and delete this message
>>>                 immediately.
>>>
>>>                     On 20 May 2018, at 9:40 pm, Alexander Schubert
>>>                     <alexander at schubert.berlin
>>>                     <mailto:alexander at schubert.berlin>> wrote:
>>>
>>>                     Christopher,
>>>
>>>                     I completely understand (and support) your
>>>                     notion, that an applicant for a geo-gTLD should
>>>                     be locally rooted; ideally geo-community funded,
>>>                     managed and marketed. And I am completely in
>>>                     agreement with you that we should create policy
>>>                     that prevents that a few big players are
>>>                     blanketing the geo-gTLD space with hundreds of
>>>                     applications each a copy & paste job of the
>>>                     other, with absolutely zero knowledge of the
>>>                     specific city community and no intent to further
>>>                     THEIR specific agenda – instead trying to make
>>>                     money FAST.
>>>
>>>                     And obviously letters of non-objection will help
>>>                     a lot – because by 2020 the mayors of a major
>>>                     cities WILL know a bit about the pitfalls of the
>>>                     management for city gTLDs (consultants will
>>>                     bring them up to speed and help them to navigate
>>>                     the jungle of examining the applicants funding,
>>>                     marketing, community-engagement and rooting,
>>>                     management, etc).
>>>
>>>                     You suggest a measure to reduce mass land-grab:
>>>                     “Prohibition to apply for several geo-gTLDs for
>>>                     the same entity”. I was a “domainer” (shame on
>>>                     me) since 1997,  and then started to create
>>>                     community based gTLDs in 2004 (.berlin was a
>>>                     community owned, funded, managed and designated
>>>                     gTLD application, as was the .gay applicant I
>>>                     founded). I personally know quite a bunch of
>>>                     “domainers turned portfolio applicants”. And I
>>>                     know their abilities, their endurance. They will
>>>                     simply have a legal entity in each city –
>>>                     intelligently managed through notaries acting on
>>>                     their behalf. I am happy to help looking into
>>>                     policy that is designed to stop geo-name land
>>>                     grab; but the measure proposed by you is
>>>                     probably easily to be gamed.
>>>
>>>
>>>                     Thanks,
>>>
>>>                     Alexander
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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