[Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5] Conference call: city names

DE SALINS Ghislain ghislain.de-salins at finances.gouv.fr
Thu May 10 07:38:53 UTC 2018


Dear all,

to complete the data gathered by Jorge, I copied below some parts of the decisions recently made by both the court and the appeal court in France regarding "France.com". Because the decisions were made with respect to the second level of a gTLD, you can easily infer that, a fortiori, the reasonning behind the decisions would also apply to the top level.

The courts considered, inter alia, that geographic terms are part of a country's identity and that therefore sovereign rights apply to those terms; that delegating such terms to private companies in the DNS could constitute an illegal monopoly with respect to public interest.

"Considérant que l’action en revendication de l’Etat français est fondée à titre principal sur les dispositions de l’article L 712-6 du code de la propriété intellectuelle ; que l’intimé se prévaut de droits sur la dénomination « France » et indique avoir vocation à être titulaire des marques litigieuses ; qu’il fait valoir en substance que ces marques sont trompeuses ou se heurtent à l’ordre public, qu’elles constituent une fraude aux intérêts de l’Etat à la protection d’une dénomination sur lequel s’exerce sa souveraineté et qui fonde son identité et qu’elles sont de nature à conférer au tour opérateur américain un monopole illégitime au regard de l’intérêt public général ;

Considérant que contrairement à ce que soutient l’appelante, l’appellation « France » constitue pour l’Etat français un élément d’identité assimilable au nom patronymique d’une personne physique ; que ce terme désigne le territoire national dans son identité économique, géographique, historique, politique et culturelle, laquelle a notamment vocation à promouvoir l’ensemble des produits et services visés aux dépôts des marques considérées ; que le suffixe .com correspondant à une extension internet de nom de domaine n’est pas de nature à modifier la perception du signe ;

Considérant que l’argument de l’appelante selon lequel l’Etat français, qui dispose d’autres adresses internet, « n’a pas besoin » du nom de domaine france.com est inopérant ;
Considérant que pour des motifs identiques à ceux déjà exposés, ce nom de domaine permettant d’accéder à un site internet dédié au tourisme en France, porte atteinte à l’appellation « France » qui constitue pour l’Etat français un élément de son identité ;"

GDS

________________________________________
De : Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 [gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5-bounces at icann.org] de la part de Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch [Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch]
Envoyé : jeudi 10 mai 2018 09:01
À : Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch; mcgradygnso at gmail.com; paul.rosenzweig at redbranchconsulting.com
Cc : gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org
Objet : [***] Re: [Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5] Conference call: city names

Apart from the French case mentioned by Ghislain, you may find this German ruling interesting from 1999, which has inspired other cases (also in Switzerland):
http://www.bettinger.de/en/infothek/domainrecht-a-z/domainrecht-urteile-und-beschluesse/badwildbad-com/
<http://www.bettinger.de/en/infothek/domainrecht-a-z/domainrecht-urteile-und-beschluesse/badwildbad-com/>(in German)

Another interesting, Swiss, case is based on Art 29 ZGB (in French): https://www.bger.ch/ext/eurospider/live/fr/php/clir/http/index.php?lang=fr&type=highlight_simple_query&page=1&from_date=&to_date=&from_year=1954&to_year=2018&sort=relevance&insertion_date=&from_date_push=&top_subcollection_clir=bge&query_words=ATF128+III+353&part=all&de_fr=&de_it=&fr_de=&fr_it=&it_de=&it_fr=&orig=&translation=&rank=1&highlight_docid=atf%3A%2F%2F128-III-353%3Afr&number_of_ranks=3&azaclir=clir

As said, all this just reflects that city governments have an interest on their denomination, which at least in some countries are backed by the kind of rights existing in France, Germany or small Switzerland...

In other countries these interests may have a different legal form, be based on public policy or in limits (as also exist in Switzerland) against monopolizing business names or trademarks composed solely by such geographic names (eg to register „lucerne“ instead of „lucerne foods“)...

What is key is to get such public authorities at the table before the application runs too far, the applicant invests much money, because if the public authority is left aside it may come in later and there may be a protracted, costly conflict that benefits no one.

The letter of non-objection avoids such unfortunate situations and ensures that the public authorities are OK with the application and gives a much better level of certainty to the applicant.

In cultures, like apparently some anglosaxon countries (where up to now as far as I see almost all critics to the non-objection framework of the 2012 AGB are coming from), if public authorities have no policy nor legal interests in their name the process of obtaining non-objection letters should be very swift, as public authorities are bound by the rule of law and would naturally not have anything to object prima facie...

And that is one perfectly possible approach under the non-objetion system.

At the same time that system allows that other policy/legal cultures that have more affirmative interests on the names of geographic entities are also well served, because, as said, the relevant public authorities are made aware in a timely fashion of the application and are brought to a table.

The result may also be laisser faire, or it may mean participating in governance or setting some shared rules.

I hope this might help for our common understanding and remind us that ICANN sets policies for the global DNS, with solutions that best fit all interested parties worldwide.

best

Jorge


________________________________

Von: Cancio Jorge BAKOM <Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch>
Datum: 10. Mai 2018 um 07:41:52 MESZ
An: Cancio Jorge BAKOM <Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch>, mcgradygnso at gmail.com <mcgradygnso at gmail.com>, paul.rosenzweig at redbranchconsulting.com <paul.rosenzweig at redbranchconsulting.com>
Cc: gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org <gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org>
Betreff: Re: [Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5] Conference call: city names

I forgot to refer to the Email from Ghislain de Salins who makes some very pertinent points and also references to some recent French case-law.
Best
Jorge



________________________________

Von: Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch <Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch>
Datum: 10. Mai 2018 um 07:36:05 MESZ
An: mcgradygnso at gmail.com <mcgradygnso at gmail.com>, paul.rosenzweig at redbranchconsulting.com <paul.rosenzweig at redbranchconsulting.com>
Cc: gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org <gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org>
Betreff: Re: [Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5] Conference call: city names

Dear Paul

Under that article public authorities such as cities have the right to protect their name in general, also in the DNS, as the case-law shows.

Similar laws exist in other countries and are also applicable to the DNS, as case-law shows.

These laws reflect amongst other things the public interest of public authorities in their denominations and the identity of their communities.

And please don‘t forget that the DNS is global, a TLD is unique, its delegation has effects everywhere, and local law if applicable needs to be respected by ICANN pursuant its bylaws.

Besides that I guess you are aware that in case of persisting infringement of any right, anyone entitled to a right (eg a brand owner or a city government on its name) has to go to court to enforce that right.

But I guess we may both agree that that would be a bad idea in the DNS, and that policy solutions like UDRP are preferable - policy solutions where rights and interests are considered from the start, everyone is brought to a table and protracted conflicts are avoided...

Best regards

Jorge



________________________________

Von: Paul McGrady <mcgradygnso at gmail.com>
Datum: 9. Mai 2018 um 23:54:13 MESZ
An: Paul Rosenzweig <paul.rosenzweig at redbranchconsulting.com>
Cc: Cancio Jorge BAKOM <Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch>, Greg Shatan (gregshatanipc at gmail.com) <gregshatanipc at gmail.com>, gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org <gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org>
Betreff: Re: [Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5] Conference call: city names

Hi Jorge,

Following up on our conversation today on the WG call, I took a look at Article 29 of the Swiss Civil Code as you suggested. I don't see anything in here about a government's right to block delegation of top level domain names. In fact, there is no mention of top level domain names at all nor any mention of any preemptive rights at all. It does provide a mechanism to deal with name disputes, but those are in the purview of the courts, not in the purview of prior restraints on speech. Here is the language of the Article:

"Art. 29 1 If a person’s use of his or her name is disputed, he or she may apply for a court declaration confirming his rights. 2 If a person is adversely affected because another person is using his or her name, he or she may seek an order prohibiting such use and, if the user is at fault, may bring a claim for damages and, where justified by the nature of the infringement, for satisfaction."

Is there another Article 29 to which you are referring? Absent that, I don't think this supports the position you are advancing. Under Article 29 if someone was upset about a top level domain name, they could, in theory, go to courts, but nothing in here allows for preemptive blocking of speech.

Also, is there any other basis whatsoever under international or national law, other than what appears to be an inapplicable Swiss Code section, to support the notion that governments have a right to pre-censor the top level? If so, now is the time to produce citations so that we can all read them. Thanks!

Best,
Paul




On Sat, May 5, 2018 at 4:41 PM, Paul Rosenzweig <paul.rosenzweig at redbranchconsulting.com<mailto:paul.rosenzweig at redbranchconsulting.com>> wrote:
I didn't see those Jorge. Could you resend please?
Paul

Paul Rosenzweig
M: +1 (202) 329-9650
VOIP: +1 (202) 738 1739


-----Original Message-----
From: Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 <gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5-bounces at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5-bounces at icann.org>> On Behalf
Of Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch>
Sent: Saturday, May 5, 2018 5:24 PM
To: gregshatanipc at gmail.com<mailto:gregshatanipc at gmail.com>
Cc: gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org>
Subject: Re: [Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5] Conference call: city names

Hi Greg
Please see my responses to Paul and Robin, where I explain my thinking.
Have a nice weekend
best
Jorge



________________________________

Von: Greg Shatan <gregshatanipc at gmail.com<mailto:gregshatanipc at gmail.com>>
Datum: 5. Mai 2018 um 19:31:39 MESZ
An: Cancio Jorge BAKOM <Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch>>
Cc: alexander at schubert.berlin <alexander at schubert.berlin>,
gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org> <gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org>>
Betreff: Re: [Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5] Conference call: city names

Also, why do you think that right should have any extraterritorial effect?

On Sat, May 5, 2018 at 1:30 PM Greg Shatan
<gregshatanipc at gmail.com<mailto:gregshatanipc at gmail.com><mailto:gregshatanipc at gmail.com<mailto:gregshatanipc at gmail.com>>> wrote:
Jorge,

Can you expand on that, please? Why do you think it’s different, in ways
that are relevant here? And why do you think it’s superior (assuming you
do)?

Thanks,

Greg

On Fri, May 4, 2018 at 10:53 AM
<Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch>>> wrote:
Dear Greg
Luzern has a right on the name as such under civil right, which is
qualitatively different.
Best
Jorge



________________________________

Von: Greg Shatan <gregshatanipc at gmail.com<mailto:gregshatanipc at gmail.com><mailto:gregshatanipc at gmail.com<mailto:gregshatanipc at gmail.com>>>
Datum: 4. Mai 2018 um 16:44:19 MESZ
An: alexander at schubert.berlin <alexander at schubert.berlin>
Cc: gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org>>
<gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org>>>
Betreff: Re: [Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5] Conference call: city names

Alexander,

You seem to be confusing how patents work and how trademarks work. Patents
can accurately be characterized as a “right to exclude.” Trademarks cannot.
The company has positive rights in LUCERNE.

When enforcing that trademark, the owners of LUCERNE can seek to stop use or
registration of a mark that raises a “likelihood of confusion” — basically,
the same or similar mark for the same or related goods and services, and for
goods and services in the “natural zone of expansion.” I’m not saying they
have the right to stop EVERYBODY nor should they, but then again, neither
should Luzern.

Greg

On Fri, May 4, 2018 at 10:31 AM Alexander Schubert
<alexander at schubert.berlin> wrote:
Greg,

Lucerne Foods, Inc. (an American legal entity) might have acquired trade
mark rights in the United States of America – but NOT for “LUCERNE”! The
trade mark protection prevents the commercial usage of the trade-marked
string “lucerne” - FOR A VERY NARROW SELECTION OF SERVICES AND GOODS. It’s
rather the services and goods that you protect – FOR a certain string. The
string itself is free to use by anybody for everything (minus the few goods
and services trade-marked).

And nobody says that “governments think the rights of governments come
first” – it is THE PEOPLE who come first of course – and Governments are
merely representing them.

Alexander





From: Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5
[mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5-bounces at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5-bounces at icann.org><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5-bou<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5-bou>
nces at icann.org<mailto:nces at icann.org>><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5-bounces at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5-bounces at icann.org><mailto:gnso-new<mailto:gnso-new>
gtld-wg-wt5-bounces at icann.org<mailto:gtld-wg-wt5-bounces at icann.org>>>] On Behalf Of Greg Shatan
Sent: Friday, May 04, 2018 9:08 AM
To:
Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch>><mailto:Jorge<mailto:Jorge>
.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:Cancio at bakom.admin.ch><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch>>>
Cc:
gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org>><mailto:g<mailto:g>
nso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:nso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org>>>

Subject: Re: [Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5] Conference call: city names

Of course Lucerne Foods has a right on Lucerne. More precisely, they have
legitimate interests in and a legal right to Lucerne. And they have
trademark registrations for LUCERNE. As with any registration they specify
goods and services. That doesn’t make their rights less valid.

Can you clarify if you believe that the hypothetical applicant for .sandwich
should be required to get letters of support or nonobjective from Sandwich,
Mass and Sandwich, England? Thank you.

Greg

On Fri, May 4, 2018 at 1:43 AM
<Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch>><mailto:Jorg<mailto:Jorg>
e.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:e.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch>>>> wrote:
Dear Greg

Thanks for your reply. “Lucerne Foods” has no right on “Lucerne” – it most
probably just has a trademark for “lucerne foods” in very specific
categories of products and services (food related I guess).

In Switzerland (“Lucerne” as such) would in fact be barred from registration
as a business name (as I have said). And the city of Lucerne has a right on
its name pursuant 29 Civil Code, so it has clearly a good legal ground to
challenge the delegation of the unique resource “.lucerne”.

But beyond the Swiss legal system, the delegation of the unique resource
which is a city’s name will give rise to political sensitivities, whatever
the “intended use”. You need that city government on board. Otherwise you
will have a political problem – which is quite natural as city governments
have responsibilities, and the name of their city is their main identifier.

Best

Jorge

Von: Greg Shatan
[mailto:gregshatanipc at gmail.com<mailto:gregshatanipc at gmail.com><mailto:gregshatanipc at gmail.com<mailto:gregshatanipc at gmail.com>><mailto:gregs<mailto:gregs>
hatanipc at gmail.com<mailto:hatanipc at gmail.com><mailto:gregshatanipc at gmail.com<mailto:gregshatanipc at gmail.com>>>]
Gesendet: Freitag, 4. Mai 2018 07:36
An: Cancio Jorge BAKOM
<Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch>><mailto:Jorg<mailto:Jorg>
e.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:e.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch>>>>

Cc: Liz Williams
<liz.williams at auda.org.au<mailto:liz.williams at auda.org.au><mailto:liz.williams at auda.org.au<mailto:liz.williams at auda.org.au>><mailto:liz.willia<mailto:liz.willia>
ms at auda.org.au<mailto:ms at auda.org.au><mailto:liz.williams at auda.org.au<mailto:liz.williams at auda.org.au>>>>; Icann Gnso Newgtld Wg Wt5
<gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org>><mailto:
gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org>>>>
Betreff: Re: [Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5] Conference call: city names

Uniqueness does not convey primacy upon governments.

TLDs may be unique, but that does not mean that governments should get a
"Trump Card" to block any use of a string with (among other things) a
geographic meaning. I can understand why governments think the rights of
governments come first, but that's not going to get us very far.

"Use" is absolutely important -- it goes to whether a legitimate right is
being exercised or infringed.

If Lucerne Foods
(www.lucernefoods.com<http://www.lucernefoods.com><http://www.lucernefoods.com<http://www.lucernefoods.com<http://www.lucernefoods.com><http://www.lucernefoods.com>><http://www.lucernefoods.c
om>), one of the world's largest food producers, wants to apply for
.lucerne, they should have the right to do so, without interference from
Luzern. (I assume they have
lucernefoods.com<http://lucernefoods.com><http://lucernefoods.com><http://lucernefoods.com> because
www.lucerne.com<http://www.lucerne.com><http://www.lucerne.com><http://www.lucerne.com> was already
taken.)

Best regards,

Greg

On Fri, May 4, 2018 at 1:23 AM,
<Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch>><mailto:Jorg<mailto:Jorg>
e.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:e.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch>>>> wrote:
Dear Greg and all,

„Sandwich“ may be a nice example, but fact is that, as I explained, the
“use” is not really important, as we only have one string with that city
name – TLDs are unique.

Therefore, whatever the intended use (a can of worms on its own btw), the
unique TLD with the “city name” would be delegated. Think on “.shanghai”
delegated for a “non geo-use”. Who would say that would have no
implications, that would not arise no political sensitivities?

But getting back to my country, if “.luzern” were to be applied for,
intending a “non-geo use”, I would very well understand that this would
bring about not only political issues but also legal challenges in our
country (based on Art. 29 civil code).

All this is avoided if you acknowledge the facts (TLDs are unique and
political sensitivities are there) and try to put everyone at the table. The
non-objection letter does that. It may be improved, based on factual issues
detected in the 2012 round – btw: we should of course consult all parties in
those issues and get first-hand information from the applicants and public
authorities involved – just basing our analysis on hearsay, opinions or
third-party reports would not be appropriate (Greg, you will remember that
in the “jurisdiction Subgroup” of the CCWG Accountability we followed the
same path of only looking at first hand evidence…).

Best regards

Jorge

Von: Greg Shatan
[mailto:gregshatanipc at gmail.com<mailto:gregshatanipc at gmail.com><mailto:gregshatanipc at gmail.com<mailto:gregshatanipc at gmail.com>><mailto:gregs<mailto:gregs>
hatanipc at gmail.com<mailto:hatanipc at gmail.com><mailto:gregshatanipc at gmail.com<mailto:gregshatanipc at gmail.com>>>]
Gesendet: Freitag, 4. Mai 2018 07:07
An: Cancio Jorge BAKOM
<Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch>><http://kom.
admin.ch<http://admin.ch>>>
Cc: Liz Williams
<liz.williams at auda.org.au<mailto:liz.williams at auda.org.au><mailto:liz.williams at auda.org.au<mailto:liz.williams at auda.org.au>><mailto:liz.willia<mailto:liz.willia>
ms at auda.org.au<mailto:ms at auda.org.au><mailto:liz.williams at auda.org.au<mailto:liz.williams at auda.org.au>>>>; Icann Gnso Newgtld Wg Wt5
<gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org>><mailto:
gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org>>>>

Betreff: Re: [Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5] Conference call: city names

The burden of non-objection is "fairly" put on the applicant (if at all)
only if the intended use of the gTLD is as a "geo TLD." If the applied-for
string is going to be used for other purposes, there should be no
opportunity for a non-applicant to block an application. (If the "place" is
another applicant, that's an entirely different situation that I am not
covering in this email.)

Consider an application for .sandwich as a gTLD geared toward domains for
sandwich restaurants, sandwich recipe sites, sandwich fans, sandwich
historians, sellers of sandwich ingredients (meats, cheeses, breads,
condiments, etc.) or sandwich implements (panini presses, toaster ovens,
etc.). Sandwich, England and Sandwich, Mass. (and the Earl of Sandwich)
should have no say in the matter.

This is analogous to the treatment of brands. If Delta Faucets applies for
.Delta, Delta Van Lines has no basis for an objection -- because Delta
Faucets has a legitimate right. Delta Van Lines option is to apply or not
to apply (even if it is only a "defensive application"). This is a
practical and time-tested model that we should use for strings with
geographic and other meanings, at least where the gTLDs use is not as a "geo
TLD".

Greg

On Fri, May 4, 2018 at 12:56 AM,
<Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch>><mailto:Jorg<mailto:Jorg>
e.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:e.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch>>>> wrote:
Dear Liz

The burden to obtain the non-objection is fairly put on the applicant, who
has, as you also say, a direct interest in avoiding objections.

The city governments of this world (we have 2000+ in tiny Switzerland),
whose name is applied to by an applicant in a widely unknown setting which
is ICANN cannot be expected to be privy to such procedures and to be
monitoring the rounds of applications. This is of course much more difficult
for developing and large countries, whose cities may realize one day that
their name was taken as a TLD in a process they did not know, because they
did not „object“.

To the larger point: you argue/assert that the non-objection letter should
not be continued. Alas you have produced no factual basis that would warrant
that, beyond one case (africa) where the problems were of an unrelated
character, another (amazon) that did NOT fall under the non objection rule,
which leaves us with one case (tata) where issues may be analyzed and
addressed without changing the system and putting the incentive structure
completely upside-down.

More broadly speaking, ICANN cannot just ignore the political sensitivities,
which are backed by different policies, laws etc. depending on the
corresponding country. You need their representatives at the table and
non-objecting if you want to avoid protracted issues. These kinds of issues
only would grow if you gerrymander those public authorities out of the game.

best regards

Jorge



________________________________

Von: Liz Williams
<liz.williams at auda.org.au<mailto:liz.williams at auda.org.au><mailto:liz.williams at auda.org.au<mailto:liz.williams at auda.org.au>><mailto:liz.willia<mailto:liz.willia>
ms at auda.org.au<mailto:ms at auda.org.au><mailto:liz.williams at auda.org.au<mailto:liz.williams at auda.org.au>>>>
Datum: 4. Mai 2018 um 00:48:00 MESZ
An: leonard obonyo via Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5
<gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org>><mailto:
gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org>>>>
Betreff: Re: [Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5] Conference call: city names

Hello everyone

This thread has brought out some really interesting ideas. I may have a
simpler solution because what we are really talking about, in many cases, is
backward looking difficult history from which we need to move on. We should
not be satisfied with a 2007 policy and a 2012 implementation if it
continues to “allow” bad policy to chase “poor” implementation.

I may have a solution though because what we are essentially talking about
also is how a interested stakeholder can express “objection” to something.
I would like to see the end of the “non-objection” process all together, for
reasons explained in other posts. However, “objecting to an application" is
still a legitimate course of action for someone to take if they don’t want
something to happen. Here are the steps.

1. If you support something, say so. This is really up to an applicant to
do the footwork to demonstrate in an application that this has taken place.
We can then think on implementation elements of what that could look like.

2. If you don’t object to something, allow it to happen. If you change
your mind, you must do it within agreed strict time parameters see point 3.
(Non-Objection letters will be a thing of the past).

3. If you do object, make an appropriately framed objection whoever you
are. Within that objection process, refer to international law, domestic
law, ISO standards and so on that are relevant to the applicant & the
application. This takes out the endless discussion here about what should
be referred to which causes such trouble.

The applicant takes responsibility for ensuring that they submit an
application which addresses those points and avoids an objection (all
applicants are highly motivated to avoid objections). An objector must use
those standards; pay for making the objection and submit it within
appropriate time frames. Evaluators then take those objections into account
in evaluation. An objector (whoever they are) must accept that their
objection may be discarded by evaluators.

Then we can close off the endless circular differences between jurisdictions
and we focus on the real work that takes place for an applicant in an
application process.

I look forward to hearing more from colleagues because this could apply to
a) any application and b) geographic terms in particular. Our policy
recommendation then comes around to open process, objective criteria,
assumption of compliance with law, competition and innovation. The points
above are then implementation guidelines that improve an AGB.

Liz


….
Dr Liz Williams | International Affairs
.au Domain Administration Ltd
M: +61 436 020 595 | +44 7824 877757
E:
liz.williams at auda.org.au<mailto:liz.williams at auda.org.au><mailto:liz.williams at auda.org.au<mailto:liz.williams at auda.org.au>><mailto:liz.william<mailto:liz.william>
s at auda.org.au<mailto:s at auda.org.au><mailto:liz.williams at auda.org.au<mailto:liz.williams at auda.org.au>>><mailto:liz.williams at auda.org<mailto:liz.williams at auda.org>
.au<mailto:liz.williams at auda.org.au<mailto:liz.williams at auda.org.au>><mailto:liz.williams at auda.org.au<mailto:liz.williams at auda.org.au><mailto:
liz.williams at auda.org.au<mailto:liz.williams at auda.org.au>>>>
www.auda.org.au<http://www.auda.org.au><http://www.auda.org.au><http://www.auda.org.au><http://www.a
uda.org.au<http://uda.org.au>>

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On 4 May 2018, at 4:50 am, Mike Rodenbaugh
<mike at rodenbaugh.com<mailto:mike at rodenbaugh.com><mailto:mike at rodenbaugh.com<mailto:mike at rodenbaugh.com>><mailto:mike at rodenbaugh.com<mailto:mike at rodenbaugh.com><
mailto:mike at rodenbaugh.com<mailto:mike at rodenbaugh.com>>><mailto:mike at rodenbaugh.com<mailto:mike at rodenbaugh.com><mailto:mike at rodenbau<mailto:mike at rodenbau>
gh.com<http://gh.com>><mailto:mike at rodenbaugh.com<mailto:mike at rodenbaugh.com><mailto:mike at rodenbaugh.com<mailto:mike at rodenbaugh.com>>>>> wrote:

Maybe Staff can help compile any such laws and cases related to domains? We
should deal with concrete examples, as I have given re 4 TLD applications
from the last round.

Mike Rodenbaugh
RODENBAUGH LAW
tel/fax: +1.415.738.8087
http://rodenbaugh.com<http://rodenbaugh.com/>

On Thu, May 3, 2018 at 10:32 AM,
<Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch>><mailto:Jorg<mailto:Jorg>
e.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:e.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch>>><mailto:Jorge.Ca<mailto:Jorge.Ca>
ncio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:ncio at bakom.admin.ch><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch>><mailto:Jorge.Cancio@<mailto:Jorge.Cancio@>
bakom.admin.ch<http://bakom.admin.ch><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch>>>>> wrote:
Dear Mike
There are similar laws in other countries. For Switzerland you can look it
up online quite easily (in various languages). There is case-law but I guess
the court decisions will be in German and French.
Besides, limits to register solely city names and other geographic terms as
such as trademarks or business names are also common...
On the other hand, as said before, rights on brands are limited to specific
categories of products and services...
In the end, as said, you have different interests converging on a single
string, where in our opinion the public interest is paramount.
Best
Jorge



________________________________

Von: Mike Rodenbaugh
<mike at rodenbaugh.com<mailto:mike at rodenbaugh.com><mailto:mike at rodenbaugh.com<mailto:mike at rodenbaugh.com>><mailto:mike at rodenbaugh.com<mailto:mike at rodenbaugh.com><
mailto:mike at rodenbaugh.com<mailto:mike at rodenbaugh.com>>><mailto:mike at rodenbaugh.com<mailto:mike at rodenbaugh.com><mailto:mike at rodenbau<mailto:mike at rodenbau>
gh.com<http://gh.com>><mailto:mike at rodenbaugh.com<mailto:mike at rodenbaugh.com><mailto:mike at rodenbaugh.com<mailto:mike at rodenbaugh.com>>>>>
Datum: 3. Mai 2018 um 19:26:08 MESZ
An: Cancio Jorge BAKOM
<Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch>><mailto:Jorg<mailto:Jorg>
e.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:e.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch>>><mailto:Jorge.Ca<mailto:Jorge.Ca>
ncio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:ncio at bakom.admin.ch><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch>><mailto:Jorge.Cancio@<mailto:Jorge.Cancio@>
bakom.admin.ch<http://bakom.admin.ch><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch>>>>>
Cc: Gregory S. Shatan
<gregshatanipc at gmail.com<mailto:gregshatanipc at gmail.com><mailto:gregshatanipc at gmail.com<mailto:gregshatanipc at gmail.com>><mailto:gregshatanip<mailto:gregshatanip>
c at gmail.com<mailto:c at gmail.com><mailto:gregshatanipc at gmail.com<mailto:gregshatanipc at gmail.com>>><mailto:gregshatanipc at gmail.com<mailto:gregshatanipc at gmail.com><
mailto:gregshatanipc at gmail.com<mailto:gregshatanipc at gmail.com>><mailto:gregshatanipc at gmail.com<mailto:gregshatanipc at gmail.com><mailto:gregsh<mailto:gregsh>
atanipc at gmail.com<mailto:atanipc at gmail.com>>>>>,
mmoll at ca.inter.net<mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net><mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net<mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net>><mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net<mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net><mail
to:mmoll at ca.inter.net<mailto:to%3Ammoll at ca.inter.net>>><mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net<mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net><mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net<mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net>>
<mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net<mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net><mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net<mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net>>>>
<mmoll at ca.inter.net<mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net><mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net<mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net>><mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net<mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net><mai
lto:mmoll at ca.inter.net<mailto:lto%3Ammoll at ca.inter.net>>><mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net<mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net><mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net<mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net>
><mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net<mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net><mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net<mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net>>>>>,
gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org>><mailto:g<mailto:g>
nso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:nso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org>>><mailto:g<mailto:g>
nso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:nso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org>><mailto:gn<mailto:gn>
so-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:so-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org>>>>
<gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org>><mailto:
gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org>>><mailto:
gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org>><mailto:g<mailto:g>
nso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:nso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org>>>>>
Betreff: Re: [Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5] Conference call: city names

I would like to see the text of such laws, and any cases that apply them to
domain names. I guess there might be one in France too, but I haven't dug
into the particulars of the French legal proceedings re
France.com<http://France.com>.

Mike Rodenbaugh
RODENBAUGH LAW
tel/fax: +1.415.738.8087
http://rodenbaugh.com<http://rodenbaugh.com/>

On Thu, May 3, 2018 at 10:19 AM,
<Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch>><mailto:Jorg<mailto:Jorg>
e.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:e.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch>>><mailto:Jorge.Ca<mailto:Jorge.Ca>
ncio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:ncio at bakom.admin.ch><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch>><mailto:Jorge.Cancio@<mailto:Jorge.Cancio@>
bakom.admin.ch<http://bakom.admin.ch><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch>>>><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bak<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bak>
om.admin.ch<http://om.admin.ch><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch>><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.ad<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.ad>
min.ch<http://min.ch><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch>>><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin>.
ch<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch>><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch><ma
ilto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:ilto%3AJorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch>>>>>> wrote:
Dear Mike
I mentioned some, eg in Switzerland cities have rights to protect their
names under the civil code (art. 29), and provisions prevent the
registration of business names and trademarks that solely consist of city
names.
best
Jorge



________________________________

Von: Mike Rodenbaugh
<mike at rodenbaugh.com<mailto:mike at rodenbaugh.com><mailto:mike at rodenbaugh.com<mailto:mike at rodenbaugh.com>><mailto:mike at rodenbaugh.com<mailto:mike at rodenbaugh.com><
mailto:mike at rodenbaugh.com<mailto:mike at rodenbaugh.com>>><mailto:mike at rodenbaugh.com<mailto:mike at rodenbaugh.com><mailto:mike at rodenbau<mailto:mike at rodenbau>
gh.com<http://gh.com>><mailto:mike at rodenbaugh.com<mailto:mike at rodenbaugh.com><mailto:mike at rodenbaugh.com<mailto:mike at rodenbaugh.com>>>><mailto:mike<mailto:mike>
@rodenbaugh.com<http://rodenbaugh.com><mailto:mike at rodenbaugh.com<mailto:mike at rodenbaugh.com>><mailto:mike at rodenbaugh.com<mailto:mike at rodenbaugh.com><mailt
o:mike at rodenbaugh.com<mailto:o%3Amike at rodenbaugh.com>>><mailto:mike at rodenbaugh.com<mailto:mike at rodenbaugh.com><mailto:mike at rodenbaugh.co<mailto:mike at rodenbaugh.co>
m><mailto:mike at rodenbaugh.com<mailto:mike at rodenbaugh.com><mailto:mike at rodenbaugh.com<mailto:mike at rodenbaugh.com>>>>>>
Datum: 3. Mai 2018 um 19:06:27 MESZ
An: Cancio Jorge BAKOM
<Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch>><mailto:Jorg<mailto:Jorg>
e.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:e.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch>>><mailto:Jorge.Ca<mailto:Jorge.Ca>
ncio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:ncio at bakom.admin.ch><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch>><mailto:Jorge.Cancio@<mailto:Jorge.Cancio@>
bakom.admin.ch<http://bakom.admin.ch><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch>>>><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bak<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bak>
om.admin.ch<http://om.admin.ch><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch>><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.ad<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.ad>
min.ch<http://min.ch><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch>>><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin>.
ch<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch>><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch><ma
ilto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:ilto%3AJorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch>>>>>>
Cc: Gregory S. Shatan
<gregshatanipc at gmail.com<mailto:gregshatanipc at gmail.com><mailto:gregshatanipc at gmail.com<mailto:gregshatanipc at gmail.com>><mailto:gregshatanip<mailto:gregshatanip>
c at gmail.com<mailto:c at gmail.com><mailto:gregshatanipc at gmail.com<mailto:gregshatanipc at gmail.com>>><mailto:gregshatanipc at gmail.com<mailto:gregshatanipc at gmail.com><
mailto:gregshatanipc at gmail.com<mailto:gregshatanipc at gmail.com>><mailto:gregshatanipc at gmail.com<mailto:gregshatanipc at gmail.com><mailto:gregsh<mailto:gregsh>
atanipc at gmail.com<mailto:atanipc at gmail.com>>>><mailto:gregshatanipc at gmail.com<mailto:gregshatanipc at gmail.com><mailto:gregshatanipc at gma<mailto:gregshatanipc at gma>
il.com<http://il.com>><mailto:gregshatanipc at gmail.com<mailto:gregshatanipc at gmail.com><mailto:gregshatanipc at gmail.com<mailto:gregshatanipc at gmail.com>>><mail
to:gregshatanipc at gmail.com<mailto:to%3Agregshatanipc at gmail.com><mailto:gregshatanipc at gmail.com<mailto:gregshatanipc at gmail.com>><mailto:gregshatan<mailto:gregshatan>
ipc at gmail.com<mailto:ipc at gmail.com><mailto:gregshatanipc at gmail.com<mailto:gregshatanipc at gmail.com>>>>>>,
mmoll at ca.inter.net<mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net><mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net<mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net>><mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net<mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net><mail
to:mmoll at ca.inter.net<mailto:to%3Ammoll at ca.inter.net>>><mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net<mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net><mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net<mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net>>
<mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net<mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net><mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net<mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net>>>><mailto:mmoll at ca.inte<mailto:mmoll at ca.inte>
r.net<http://r.net><mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net<mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net>><mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net<mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net><mailto:mmoll at ca.i<mailto:mmoll at ca.i>
nter.net<http://nter.net>>><mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net<mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net><mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net<mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net>><mailto:mmoll<mailto:mmoll>
@ca.inter.net<http://ca.inter.net><mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net<mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net>>>>>
<mmoll at ca.inter.net<mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net><mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net<mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net>><mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net<mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net><mai
lto:mmoll at ca.inter.net<mailto:lto%3Ammoll at ca.inter.net>>><mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net<mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net><mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net<mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net>
><mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net<mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net><mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net<mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net>>>><mailto:mmoll at ca.int<mailto:mmoll at ca.int>
er.net<http://er.net><mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net<mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net>><mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net<mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net><mailto:mmoll at ca<mailto:mmoll at ca>.
inter.net<http://inter.net>>><mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net<mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net><mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net<mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net>><mailto:mmol<mailto:mmol>
l at ca.inter.net<mailto:l at ca.inter.net><mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net<mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net>>>>>>,
gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org>><mailto:g<mailto:g>
nso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:nso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org>>><mailto:g<mailto:g>
nso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:nso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org>><mailto:gn<mailto:gn>
so-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:so-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org>>>><mailto:g<mailto:g>
nso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:nso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org>><mailto:gn<mailto:gn>
so-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:so-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org>>><mailto:gn<mailto:gn>
so-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:so-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org>><mailto:gns<mailto:gns>
o-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:o-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org>>>>>
<gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org>><mailto:
gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org>>><mailto:
gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org>><mailto:g<mailto:g>
nso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:nso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org>>>><mailto:
gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org>><mailto:g<mailto:g>
nso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:nso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org>>><mailto:g<mailto:g>
nso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:nso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org>><mailto:gn<mailto:gn>
so-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:so-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org>>>>>>
Betreff: Re: [Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5] Conference call: city names

Jorge, what law provides for governments to claim superior rights to
geographic (or any other) domain names? I am not aware of any, so am eager
to be enlightened if they exist.

Thanks,
Mike

Mike Rodenbaugh
RODENBAUGH LAW
tel/fax: +1.415.738.8087
http://rodenbaugh.com<http://rodenbaugh.com/>

On Thu, May 3, 2018 at 2:49 AM,
<Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch>><mailto:Jorg<mailto:Jorg>
e.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:e.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch>>><mailto:Jorge.Ca<mailto:Jorge.Ca>
ncio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:ncio at bakom.admin.ch><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch>><mailto:Jorge.Cancio@<mailto:Jorge.Cancio@>
bakom.admin.ch<http://bakom.admin.ch><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch>>>><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bak<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bak>
om.admin.ch<http://om.admin.ch><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch>><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.ad<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.ad>
min.ch<http://min.ch><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch>>><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin>.
ch<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch>><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch><ma
ilto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:ilto%3AJorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch>>>>><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch><mail
to:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:to%3AJorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch>><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch><mailto:Jo<mailto:Jo>
rge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:rge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch>>><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch><mailto:Jorge<mailto:Jorge>.
Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:Cancio at bakom.admin.ch>><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch><mailto:Jorge.Canci<mailto:Jorge.Canci>
o at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:o at bakom.admin.ch>>>><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at b<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at b>
akom.admin.ch<http://akom.admin.ch>><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom>.
admin.ch<http://admin.ch>>><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admi<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admi>
n.ch<http://n.ch>><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch>>
>>>>> wrote:
Dear Mike

Thanks for your input.

In the end we have different bodies, entities etc. holding interests on one
single string. In our view (Swiss perspective), public interest provides for
clear limits to private monopolization over geographic names such as city
names – this is reflected in law.

Best regards

Jorge


Von: Mike Rodenbaugh
[mailto:mike at rodenbaugh.com<mailto:mike at rodenbaugh.com><mailto:mike at rodenbaugh.com<mailto:mike at rodenbaugh.com>><mailto:mike at rodenbau<mailto:mike at rodenbau>
gh.com<http://gh.com><mailto:mike at rodenbaugh.com<mailto:mike at rodenbaugh.com>>><mailto:mike at rodenbaugh.com<mailto:mike at rodenbaugh.com><mailto:mike at r<mailto:mike at r>
odenbaugh.com<http://odenbaugh.com>><mailto:mike at rodenbaugh.com<mailto:mike at rodenbaugh.com><mailto:mike at rodenbaugh.com<mailto:mike at rodenbaugh.com>>>><mail
to:mike at rodenbaugh.com<mailto:to%3Amike at rodenbaugh.com><mailto:mike at rodenbaugh.com<mailto:mike at rodenbaugh.com>><mailto:mike at rodenbaugh.co<mailto:mike at rodenbaugh.co>
m<mailto:mike at rodenbaugh.com<mailto:mike at rodenbaugh.com>>><mailto:mike at rodenbaugh.com<mailto:mike at rodenbaugh.com><mailto:mike at rodenb<mailto:mike at rodenb>
augh.com<http://augh.com>><mailto:mike at rodenbaugh.com<mailto:mike at rodenbaugh.com><mailto:mike at rodenbaugh.com<mailto:mike at rodenbaugh.com>>>>><mailto:m<mailto:m>
ike at rodenbaugh.com<mailto:ike at rodenbaugh.com><mailto:mike at rodenbaugh.com<mailto:mike at rodenbaugh.com>><mailto:mike at rodenbaugh.com<mailto:mike at rodenbaugh.com><ma
ilto:mike at rodenbaugh.com<mailto:ilto%3Amike at rodenbaugh.com>>><mailto:mike at rodenbaugh.com<mailto:mike at rodenbaugh.com><mailto:mike at rodenbaugh<mailto:mike at rodenbaugh>
.com><mailto:mike at rodenbaugh.com<mailto:mike at rodenbaugh.com><mailto:mike at rodenbaugh.com<mailto:mike at rodenbaugh.com>>>><mailto:mike at r<mailto:mike at r>
odenbaugh.com<http://odenbaugh.com><mailto:mike at rodenbaugh.com<mailto:mike at rodenbaugh.com>><mailto:mike at rodenbaugh.com<mailto:mike at rodenbaugh.com><mailto:
mike at rodenbaugh.com<mailto:mike at rodenbaugh.com>>><mailto:mike at rodenbaugh.com<mailto:mike at rodenbaugh.com><mailto:mike at rodenbaugh.com<mailto:mike at rodenbaugh.com>>
<mailto:mike at rodenbaugh.com<mailto:mike at rodenbaugh.com><mailto:mike at rodenbaugh.com<mailto:mike at rodenbaugh.com>>>>>>]
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 3. Mai 2018 09:49
An: Cancio Jorge BAKOM
<Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch>><mailto:Jorg<mailto:Jorg>
e.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:e.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch>>><mailto:Jorge.Ca<mailto:Jorge.Ca>
ncio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:ncio at bakom.admin.ch><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch>><mailto:Jorge.Cancio@<mailto:Jorge.Cancio@>
bakom.admin.ch<http://bakom.admin.ch><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch>>>><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bak<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bak>
om.admin.ch<http://om.admin.ch><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch>><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.ad<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.ad>
min.ch<http://min.ch><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch>>><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin>.
ch<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch>><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch><ma
ilto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:ilto%3AJorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch>>>>><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch><mail
to:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:to%3AJorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch>><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch><mailto:Jo<mailto:Jo>
rge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:rge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch>>><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch><mailto:Jorge<mailto:Jorge>.
Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:Cancio at bakom.admin.ch>><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch><mailto:Jorge.Canci<mailto:Jorge.Canci>
o at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:o at bakom.admin.ch>>>><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at b<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at b>
akom.admin.ch<http://akom.admin.ch>><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom>.
admin.ch<http://admin.ch>>><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admi<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admi>
n.ch<http://n.ch>><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch>>
>>>>>
Cc: Gregory S. Shatan
<gregshatanipc at gmail.com<mailto:gregshatanipc at gmail.com><mailto:gregshatanipc at gmail.com<mailto:gregshatanipc at gmail.com>><mailto:gregshatanip<mailto:gregshatanip>
c at gmail.com<mailto:c at gmail.com><mailto:gregshatanipc at gmail.com<mailto:gregshatanipc at gmail.com>>><mailto:gregshatanipc at gmail.com<mailto:gregshatanipc at gmail.com><
mailto:gregshatanipc at gmail.com<mailto:gregshatanipc at gmail.com>><mailto:gregshatanipc at gmail.com<mailto:gregshatanipc at gmail.com><mailto:gregsh<mailto:gregsh>
atanipc at gmail.com<mailto:atanipc at gmail.com>>>><mailto:gregshatanipc at gmail.com<mailto:gregshatanipc at gmail.com><mailto:gregshatanipc at gma<mailto:gregshatanipc at gma>
il.com<http://il.com>><mailto:gregshatanipc at gmail.com<mailto:gregshatanipc at gmail.com><mailto:gregshatanipc at gmail.com<mailto:gregshatanipc at gmail.com>>><mail
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ipc at gmail.com<mailto:ipc at gmail.com><mailto:gregshatanipc at gmail.com<mailto:gregshatanipc at gmail.com>>>>><mailto:gregshatanipc at gmail<mailto:gregshatanipc at gmail>.
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egshatanipc at gmail.com<mailto:egshatanipc at gmail.com>>><mailto:gregshatanipc at gmail.com<mailto:gregshatanipc at gmail.com><mailto:gregshatanipc@<mailto:gregshatanipc@>
gmail.com<http://gmail.com>><mailto:gregshatanipc at gmail.com<mailto:gregshatanipc at gmail.com><mailto:gregshatanipc at gmail.com<mailto:gregshatanipc at gmail.com>>>><
mailto:gregshatanipc at gmail.com<mailto:gregshatanipc at gmail.com><mailto:gregshatanipc at gmail.com<mailto:gregshatanipc at gmail.com>><mailto:gregsh<mailto:gregsh>
atanipc at gmail.com<mailto:atanipc at gmail.com><mailto:gregshatanipc at gmail.com<mailto:gregshatanipc at gmail.com>>><mailto:gregshatanipc at gmai<mailto:gregshatanipc at gmai>
l.com<http://l.com><mailto:gregshatanipc at gmail.com<mailto:gregshatanipc at gmail.com>><mailto:gregshatanipc at gmail.com<mailto:gregshatanipc at gmail.com><mailto:
gregshatanipc at gmail.com<mailto:gregshatanipc at gmail.com>>>>>>>;
mmoll at ca.inter.net<mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net><mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net<mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net>><mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net<mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net><mail
to:mmoll at ca.inter.net<mailto:to%3Ammoll at ca.inter.net>>><mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net<mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net><mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net<mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net>>
<mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net<mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net><mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net<mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net>>>><mailto:mmoll at ca.inte<mailto:mmoll at ca.inte>
r.net<http://r.net><mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net<mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net>><mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net<mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net><mailto:mmoll at ca.i<mailto:mmoll at ca.i>
nter.net<http://nter.net>>><mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net<mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net><mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net<mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net>><mailto:mmoll<mailto:mmoll>
@ca.inter.net<http://ca.inter.net><mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net<mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net>>>>><mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net<mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net><mailto
:mmoll at ca.inter.net<mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net>><mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net<mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net><mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net<mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net>>><m
ailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net<mailto:ailto%3Ammoll at ca.inter.net><mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net<mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net>><mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.ne<mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.ne>
t<mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net<mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net>>>><mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net<mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net><mailto:mmoll at ca.int<mailto:mmoll at ca.int>
er.net<http://er.net>><mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net<mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net><mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net<mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net>>><mailto:mmoll at c<mailto:mmoll at c>
a.inter.net<http://a.inter.net><mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net<mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net>><mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net<mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net><mailto:mmol<mailto:mmol>
l at ca.inter.net<mailto:l at ca.inter.net>>>>>>;
gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org>><mailto:g<mailto:g>
nso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:nso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org>>><mailto:g<mailto:g>
nso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:nso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org>><mailto:gn<mailto:gn>
so-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:so-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org>>>><mailto:g<mailto:g>
nso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:nso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org>><mailto:gn<mailto:gn>
so-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:so-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org>>><mailto:gn<mailto:gn>
so-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:so-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org>><mailto:gns<mailto:gns>
o-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:o-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org>>>>><mailto:g<mailto:g>
nso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:nso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org>><mailto:gn<mailto:gn>
so-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:so-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org>>><mailto:gn<mailto:gn>
so-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:so-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org>><mailto:gns<mailto:gns>
o-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:o-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org>>>><mailto:gn<mailto:gn>
so-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:so-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org>><mailto:gns<mailto:gns>
o-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:o-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org>>><mailto:gns<mailto:gns>
o-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:o-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org>><mailto:gnso<mailto:gnso>
-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org>>>>>>
Betreff: Re: [Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5] Conference call: city names

Governments also have infinite, obvious alternatives to <.city> TLDs, such
as <.citygovernment>, <.citycouncil>, <.citytourism>, etc. Perhaps
surprisingly, governments have managed to survive for the past 30 years even
though they have not had the legal the right to "their"
<city.com<http://city.com><http://city.com><http://city.com><http://city.com/><http://city.co
m<http://city.com/>><http://city.com<http://city.com/>>> or even
<city.ccTLD> second level domain names. They still have no such legal right
at any level of the DNS. Some governments' fantasy to own such rights is
just that, fantasy.

To be sure, ICANN is not the proper body to grant governments such a right.
But unfortunately, ICANN went far too far in the last round kowtowing to
governments, and requiring the "non-objection" letter. That led to outright
extortion by such well known geographic areas as SPA and BAR, among others,
who had nothing more that a fantasy to control TLD rights to that name, plus
ICANN's ill-advised, non-community-consensus requirement of the
non-objection letter. As I recall (and I could be wrong and will eat my
shoe), that was an ICANN Staff implementation gift, not part of the
consensus policy passed by GNSO and the Board. Even if it was, it was
ill-advised then, and should be eliminated for future rounds.

Country codes have been given special status in the DNS with ccTLDs and
correspondent restrictions at the second level of the New gTLDs. That was
an original gift to national governments, extended stupidly to the second
level by ICANN in the last round, solely to appease government
obstructionists in that last round. Subsidiary governments need to get over
this; they don't have further rights to "their" name in the DNS. Period.

Paris, France has no greater rights to .PARIS than Paris, Texas. Or Paris
Hilton. Period. But I would love to hear them fight out that issue. ICANN
certainly should not have predetermined it in favor of France or Texas, to
the detriment of Ms. Hilton (and so many other legitimate users of the word
Paris). All three of those parties (at least) had equal rights to that TLD,
and should have been put into a contention set to resolve it.

In substantial part, governments continue to rehash arguments made by IGOs
in the various IGO Names policy discussions. Those IGOs get nowhere with
the broader GNSO community because they only have fantasy rights to "their"
names (in many cases) and acronyms (in almost all cases). So they scream to
the Board and have delayed finality in those discussions for half a decade
already. But the GNSO is never going to agree with them, and the GNSO has
primary TLD policy responsibility under the Bylaws, not the GAC.
Eventually, the Board must side with the GNSO, though they will put that off
forever if they can, as they have done with IGO Names issues.

This GNSO group ought not be considering government pressure or fantasy
rights. If the Board wants to do so, that is their prerogative. We need to
develop policy in the real world, where governments coexist with businesses
and other users of "their" names. They have done so for 30 years. I am
confident in stating that not a single government has fallen, nor even been
harmed, by the ability of absolutely anyone to register "their" name at the
second level or at the top level. Until any such harm is shown, why are we
even discussing this? What problem are we trying to solve, exactly?



Mike Rodenbaugh
RODENBAUGH LAW
tel/fax: +1.415.738.8087
http://rodenbaugh.com<http://rodenbaugh.com/>

On Wed, May 2, 2018 at 11:28 PM,
<Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch>><mailto:Jorg<mailto:Jorg>
e.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:e.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch>>><mailto:Jorge.Ca<mailto:Jorge.Ca>
ncio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:ncio at bakom.admin.ch><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch>><mailto:Jorge.Cancio@<mailto:Jorge.Cancio@>
bakom.admin.ch<http://bakom.admin.ch><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch>>>><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bak<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bak>
om.admin.ch<http://om.admin.ch><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch>><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.ad<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.ad>
min.ch<http://min.ch><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch>>><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin>.
ch<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch>><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch><ma
ilto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:ilto%3AJorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch>>>>><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch><mail
to:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:to%3AJorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch>><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch><mailto:Jo<mailto:Jo>
rge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:rge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch>>><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch><mailto:Jorge<mailto:Jorge>.
Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:Cancio at bakom.admin.ch>><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch><mailto:Jorge.Canci<mailto:Jorge.Canci>
o at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:o at bakom.admin.ch>>>><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at b<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at b>
akom.admin.ch<http://akom.admin.ch>><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom>.
admin.ch<http://admin.ch>>><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admi<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admi>
n.ch<http://n.ch>><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch><mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch>>
>>>>> wrote:
Dear all

The fundamental flaw with such an approach is that it forgets that TLDs are
unique. There can be only one TLD with a given city name. there can be only
one delegation of such a string.

City governments have political, social, historical, economic and legal
responsibilities over their cities, and have (at least in Switzerland and
other countries) rights on the names of their cities. There might be several
cities with the same name, but under the 2012 AGB you had to obtain the
non-objection from all of them if that was the case.

As for brands there may be unlimited numbers of business names and
trademarks that use a given city name, usually as part of their names (e.g.
City “insurances”, City “salami”, City “whatever”…) and with figurative
elements beyond the name as such (the color, the font, symbols, etc.). For
instance in Switzerland you are not allowed to register a city name as such
as a business name – because this would mean that a private business is
monopolizing that geographic name.

Hence the crux, resolved in 2012 by the non-objection letter, was that
several interests (public interests of a wide spectrum represented by the
cities, community interests and multiple commercial interests in the form of
brands) may converge on one string, one city name, one TLD.

The non-objection letter was and is in our view a good way to get the more
specific interests backing one application to a table with those who
represent the corresponding city (and its public policy interests), in order
to try to arrive at a mutually acceptable solution…

Best regards

Jorge

Von: Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5
[mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5-bounces at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5-bounces at icann.org><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5-bou<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5-bou>
nces at icann.org<mailto:nces at icann.org>><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5-bounces at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5-bounces at icann.org><mailto:gnso-new<mailto:gnso-new>
gtld-wg-wt5-bounces at icann.org<mailto:gtld-wg-wt5-bounces at icann.org>>><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5-bounces at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5-bounces at icann.org>
<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5-bounces at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5-bounces at icann.org>><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5-bo<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5-bo>
unces at icann.org<mailto:unces at icann.org><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5-bounces at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5-bounces at icann.org>>>><mailto:gnso-<mailto:gnso->
newgtld-wg-wt5-bounces at icann.org<mailto:newgtld-wg-wt5-bounces at icann.org><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5-bounces at icann.or<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5-bounces at icann.or>
g><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5-bounces at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5-bounces at icann.org><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5-b<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5-b>
ounces at icann.org<mailto:ounces at icann.org>>><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5-bounces at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5-bounces at icann.org><mailto:gnso-<mailto:gnso->
newgtld-wg-wt5-bounces at icann.org<mailto:newgtld-wg-wt5-bounces at icann.org>><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5-bounces at icann.o<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5-bounces at icann.o>
rg<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5-bounces at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5-bounces at icann.org>>>>><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-w<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-w>
t5-bounces at icann.org<mailto:t5-bounces at icann.org><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5-bounces at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5-bounces at icann.org>><mailto:gn<mailto:gn>
so-newgtld-wg-wt5-bounces at icann.org<mailto:so-newgtld-wg-wt5-bounces at icann.org><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5-bounces at icann<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5-bounces at icann>
.org>><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5-bounces at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5-bounces at icann.org><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-w<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-w>
t5-bounces at icann.org<mailto:t5-bounces at icann.org>><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5-bounces at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5-bounces at icann.org><mailto:gn<mailto:gn>
so-newgtld-wg-wt5-bounces at icann.org<mailto:so-newgtld-wg-wt5-bounces at icann.org>>>><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5-bounces at ic<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5-bounces at ic>
ann.org<http://ann.org><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5-bounces at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5-bounces at icann.org>><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg>
-wt5-bounces at icann.org<mailto:wt5-bounces at icann.org><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5-bounces at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5-bounces at icann.org>>><mailto
:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5-bounces at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5-bounces at icann.org><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5-bounces at ic<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5-bounces at ic>
ann.org<http://ann.org>><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5-bounces at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5-bounces at icann.org><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg>
-wt5-bounces at icann.org<mailto:wt5-bounces at icann.org>>>>>>] Im Auftrag von Greg Shatan
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 3. Mai 2018 06:27
An: Marita Moll
<mmoll at ca.inter.net<mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net><mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net<mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net>><mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net<mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net><mai
lto:mmoll at ca.inter.net<mailto:lto%3Ammoll at ca.inter.net>>><mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net<mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net><mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net<mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net>
><mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net<mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net><mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net<mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net>>>><mailto:mmoll at ca.int<mailto:mmoll at ca.int>
er.net<http://er.net><mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net<mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net>><mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net<mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net><mailto:mmoll at ca<mailto:mmoll at ca>.
inter.net<http://inter.net>>><mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net<mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net><mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net<mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net>><mailto:mmol<mailto:mmol>
l at ca.inter.net<mailto:l at ca.inter.net><mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net<mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net>>>>><mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net<mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net><mailt
o:mmoll at ca.inter.net<mailto:o%3Ammoll at ca.inter.net>><mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net<mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net><mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net<mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net>>><
mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net<mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net><mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net<mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net>><mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.n<mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.n>
et<mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net<mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net>>>><mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net<mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net><mailto:mmoll at ca.in<mailto:mmoll at ca.in>
ter.net<http://ter.net>><mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net<mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net><mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net<mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net>>><mailto:mmoll@<mailto:mmoll@>
ca.inter.net<http://ca.inter.net><mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net<mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net>><mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net<mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net><mailto:mmo<mailto:mmo>
ll at ca.inter.net<mailto:ll at ca.inter.net>>>>>>>
Cc: Icann Gnso Newgtld Wg Wt5
<gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org>><mailto:
gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org>>><mailto:
gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org>><mailto:g<mailto:g>
nso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:nso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org>>>><mailto:
gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org>><mailto:g<mailto:g>
nso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:nso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org>>><mailto:g<mailto:g>
nso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:nso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org>><mailto:gn<mailto:gn>
so-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:so-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org>>>>><mailto:
gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org>><mailto:g<mailto:g>
nso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:nso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org>>><mailto:g<mailto:g>
nso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:nso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org>><mailto:gn<mailto:gn>
so-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:so-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org>>>><mailto:g<mailto:g>
nso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:nso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org>><mailto:gn<mailto:gn>
so-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:so-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org>>><mailto:gn<mailto:gn>
so-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:so-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org>><mailto:gns<mailto:gns>
o-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:o-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 at icann.org>>>>>>>
Betreff: Re: [Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5] Conference call: city names

We need to distinguish between two major groups of potential use cases that
arise when there is an application for a string that (among other things) is
a geographic term:

1. The Geo Case: The case where a new gTLD applicant want to operate the
gTLD as a "geographic" TLD (e.g., .berlin, .nyc, .africa)
2. The Non-Geo Case: The case where a new gTLD wants to operate the gTLD as
something other than a geographic TLD -- a .brand, a generic gTLD, a
restricted gTLD (e.g., .tata, .spa, .amazon, .patagonia)

For the Geo Case, it may be that there are few instances where
support/non-objection letters caused problems in the 2012 round. One
"problem" instance is .africa. One would have to look at the universe of
cases to determine whether all the rest worked well or not.

For the Non-Geo Case, it is clear that there were multiple instances where
support/non-objection letters or similar exercises of power did cause
problems. We can start with all four of the examples I've cited above. I
would be curious to know if there were Non-Geo Cases that didn't have
problems.

I think we have to consider these use cases separately. The considerations
that apply when a TLD will be operated as a geo TLD (e.g., Roma for Romans)
do not apply when the TLD will be operated for other purposes (e.g.,
.sandwich for a food-related TLD -- Sandwich, MA was incorporated in 1639
and named after Sandwich, England, which is obviously older). Blending them
together just obscures the issues.

Greg



On Wed, May 2, 2018 at 12:30 PM, Marita Moll
<mmoll at ca.inter.net<mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net><mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net<mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net>><mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net<mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net><mai
lto:mmoll at ca.inter.net<mailto:lto%3Ammoll at ca.inter.net>>><mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net<mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net><mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net<mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net>
><mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net<mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net><mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net<mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net>>>><mailto:mmoll at ca.int<mailto:mmoll at ca.int>
er.net<http://er.net><mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net<mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net>><mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net<mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net><mailto:mmoll at ca<mailto:mmoll at ca>.
inter.net<http://inter.net>>><mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net<mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net><mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net<mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net>><mailto:mmol<mailto:mmol>
l at ca.inter.net<mailto:l at ca.inter.net><mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net<mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net>>>>><mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net<mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net><mailt
o:mmoll at ca.inter.net<mailto:o%3Ammoll at ca.inter.net>><mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net<mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net><mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net<mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net>>><
mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net<mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net><mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net<mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net>><mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.n<mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.n>
et<mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net<mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net>>>><mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net<mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net><mailto:mmoll at ca.in<mailto:mmoll at ca.in>
ter.net<http://ter.net>><mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net<mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net><mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net<mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net>>><mailto:mmoll@<mailto:mmoll@>
ca.inter.net<http://ca.inter.net><mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net<mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net>><mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net<mailto:mmoll at ca.inter.net><mailto:mmo<mailto:mmo>
ll at ca.inter.net<mailto:ll at ca.inter.net>>>>>>> wrote:

Yes, cities can have long history in older cultures -- wars were fought and
people died over them.



In Canada, municipal governments are subdivisions of their province. While
they have autonomy on most decisions, all by-laws passed are subject to
change by the provincial government at any time. So cities exist at the
pleasure of the provincial governments.



Leaves one to wonder if the province could deny the city the right to it's
TLD.:-( This is a pretty slippery slope......


Marita

On 5/2/2018 11:17 AM, Yrjö Länsipuro wrote:

Dear all,



Cities have been founded, incorporated and given various privileges -
including their names - in the course of history by kings and emperors and
other assorted authorities, and in my non-lawyer´s mind, documents attesting
to those acts, scribbled on parchment or whatever, are the legal basis. More
important, from end-users´ point of view, is the political ownership felt by
the citizens.



For reference, attached please find an excerpt of the founding document of
my home city Tampere/Tammerfors in 1779, signed by king Gustaf III.



Best,



Yrjö



[cid:image001.png at 01D3E2D4.C11E9F30]





________________________________
From: Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5
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ounces at icann.org<mailto:ounces at icann.org>>>>>> on behalf of Alexander Schubert
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er at schubert.berlin>>>>>
Sent: Wednesday, May 2, 2018 5:16 PM
To:
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Subject: Re: [Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5] Conference call: city names


Dear Greg,



You write:
“…..but a ‘first right’ based on a geographic name is troublesome on
several levels. But one fundamental question jumps out -- what right is this
first right based on?”

If we talk about sizeable (or otherwise “important”) cities:

Nobody has a “first right” obviously. Why should anybody. But if a string is
(should be) poised to serve as identifier for a sizeable amount of people
(e.g. larger cities) – I think we do not have to search for “international
law”; it should be self-evident that such an infrastructure resource like a
city-gTLD is NOT assigned lightly to “some entity” – but that the
representatives of the city are looped in. There is morality and a “sense of
common good” OUTSIDE of established law. At least in Good Old Europe.



But I completely agree with you if we talk about “minor” geographical
entities – such as a small stream or a hill. Or a tiny dwelling somewhere in
the nowhere. Especially if there is an entity that is MUCH better known to
the public (e.g. a well-known brand vs. a small mountain) or if it is
identical to a generic term: “.new” and the New River.

The big question is: How do we policy the line that separates the entities
that deserve “protection” from the rest? A repository? Lists of any sort?
Population size? Or maybe a panel that decides case by case (caution: Beauty
contest alarm)? But having no protections at all is not going to work. To
LOWER the already low bar is bonkers in my mind. I wish GAC would pay more
attention – there are forces trying to take away DNS infrastructure from The
People.


Thanks,



Alexander.berlin







From: Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5
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g><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5-bounces at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5-bounces at icann.org><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5-b<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5-b>
ounces at icann.org<mailto:ounces at icann.org>>><mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5-bounces at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5-bounces at icann.org><mailto:gnso-<mailto:gnso->
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rg<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5-bounces at icann.org<mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5-bounces at icann.org>>>>>] On Behalf Of Greg
Shatan
Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2018 7:42 AM
To: David Cake
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:dave at davecake.net<mailto:dave at davecake.net>>><mailto:dave at davecake.net<mailto:dave at davecake.net><mailto:dave at davecake.net<mailto:dave at davecake.net>><mail
to:dave at davecake.net<mailto:to%3Adave at davecake.net><mailto:dave at davecake.net<mailto:dave at davecake.net>>>><mailto:dave at davecake.net<mailto:dave at davecake.net><ma
ilto:dave at davecake.net<mailto:ilto%3Adave at davecake.net>><mailto:dave at davecake.net<mailto:dave at davecake.net><mailto:dave at davecake.net<mailto:dave at davecake.net>>><
mailto:dave at davecake.net<mailto:dave at davecake.net><mailto:dave at davecake.net<mailto:dave at davecake.net>><mailto:dave at davecake.net<mailto:dave at davecake.net><
mailto:dave at davecake.net<mailto:dave at davecake.net>>>>>><mailto:dave at davecake.net<mailto:dave at davecake.net><mailto:dave at davecake<mailto:dave at davecake>.
net><mailto:dave at davecake.net<mailto:dave at davecake.net><mailto:dave at davecake.net<mailto:dave at davecake.net>>><mailto:dave at davecak<mailto:dave at davecak>
e.net<http://e.net><mailto:dave at davecake.net<mailto:dave at davecake.net>><mailto:dave at davecake.net<mailto:dave at davecake.net><mailto:dave at davecak<mailto:dave at davecak>
e.net<http://e.net>>>><mailto:dave at davecake.net<mailto:dave at davecake.net><mailto:dave at davecake.net<mailto:dave at davecake.net>><mailto:dave at dave<mailto:dave at dave>
cake.net<http://cake.net><mailto:dave at davecake.net<mailto:dave at davecake.net>>><mailto:dave at davecake.net<mailto:dave at davecake.net><mailto:dave at dav<mailto:dave at dav>
ecake.net<http://ecake.net>><mailto:dave at davecake.net<mailto:dave at davecake.net><mailto:dave at davecake.net<mailto:dave at davecake.net>>>>>>
Cc: leonard obonyo via Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5
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Subject: Re: [Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5] Conference call: city names



I find myself generally in agreement with Liz Williams. There are more
nuances to unpack than I have time for, but a "first right" based on a
geographic name is troublesome on several levels. But one fundamental
question jumps out -- what right is this first right based on? Is there a
legal basis for this? (Jorge tells us that his government would make a
decision "based on law", so it would be useful to know what law we're
talking about.) Requiring a "letter of support or non-objection" is also
troublesome and not just for the reasons Liz mentions. (I hope we do not
have to pore through each of the letters of support/non-objection from the
first round to highlight the problems they cause, but if we are going to,
this should be a job for the WG as a whole, not an assignment for Liz.) I
recognize that, as Jorge say, it "works well for governments." Well, of
course it does! It completely favors governments, and was imposed by
governments (i.e., the GAC). The problem is that it doesn't work well for
anyone else, and it is not well-grounded in the rule of law (unless we are
thinking of something akin to the droit de seigneur, or perhaps the Divine
Right of Kings).



I don't know if I'll be able to be on any part of the call starting shortly,
since it is running from 1-2:30 am my time, and I don't do well on 4 hours
of sleep.... If am not, please accept my apologies.



Greg









On Mon, Apr 30, 2018 at 11:48 PM, David Cake
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et><mailto:dave at davecake.net<mailto:dave at davecake.net><mailto:dave at davecake.net<mailto:dave at davecake.net>>><mailto:dave at davecake<mailto:dave at davecake>
.net<mailto:dave at davecake.net<mailto:dave at davecake.net>><mailto:dave at davecake.net<mailto:dave at davecake.net><mailto:dave at davecake<mailto:dave at davecake>
.net>>><mailto:dave at davecake.net<mailto:dave at davecake.net><mailto:dave at davecake.net<mailto:dave at davecake.net>><mailto:dave at davec<mailto:dave at davec>
ake.net<http://ake.net><mailto:dave at davecake.net<mailto:dave at davecake.net>>><mailto:dave at davecake.net<mailto:dave at davecake.net><mailto:dave at dave<mailto:dave at dave>
cake.net<http://cake.net>><mailto:dave at davecake.net<mailto:dave at davecake.net><mailto:dave at davecake.net<mailto:dave at davecake.net>>>>>>> wrote:

Perth is not even unique within Australia, there is a small town in
Tasmania. But the point about ambiguity remaining even if we restrict it to
concepts like ‘capital’ is a very good one.



David (resident of the Western Australian Perth)



On 30 Apr 2018, at 1:18 pm, Liz Williams
<liz.williams at auda.org.au<mailto:liz.williams at auda.org.au><mailto:liz.williams at auda.org.au<mailto:liz.williams at auda.org.au>><mailto:liz.willia<mailto:liz.willia>
ms at auda.org.au<mailto:ms at auda.org.au><mailto:liz.williams at auda.org.au<mailto:liz.williams at auda.org.au>>><mailto:liz.williams at auda.or<mailto:liz.williams at auda.or>
g.au<mailto:liz.williams at auda.org.au<mailto:liz.williams at auda.org.au>><mailto:liz.williams at auda.org.au<mailto:liz.williams at auda.org.au><mailto
:liz.williams at auda.org.au<mailto:liz.williams at auda.org.au>>>><mailto:liz.williams at auda.org.au<mailto:liz.williams at auda.org.au><mailto:liz.will<mailto:liz.will>
iams at auda.org.au<mailto:iams at auda.org.au>><mailto:liz.williams at auda.org.au<mailto:liz.williams at auda.org.au><mailto:liz.williams at auda.o<mailto:liz.williams at auda.o>
rg.au>><mailto:liz.williams at auda.org.au<mailto:liz.williams at auda.org.au><mailto:liz.williams at auda.org.au<mailto:liz.williams at auda.org.au>><mai
lto:liz.williams at auda.org.au<mailto:lto%3Aliz.williams at auda.org.au><mailto:liz.williams at auda.org.au<mailto:liz.williams at auda.org.au>>>>><mailto:liz<mailto:liz>.
williams at auda.org.au<mailto:williams at auda.org.au><mailto:liz.williams at auda.org.au<mailto:liz.williams at auda.org.au>><mailto:liz.williams at au<mailto:liz.williams at au>
da.org.au<http://da.org.au><mailto:liz.williams at auda.org.au<mailto:liz.williams at auda.org.au>>><mailto:liz.williams at auda.org.au<mailto:liz.williams at auda.org.au><
mailto:liz.williams at auda.org.au<mailto:liz.williams at auda.org.au>><mailto:liz.williams at auda.org.au<mailto:liz.williams at auda.org.au><mailto:liz<mailto:liz>.
williams at auda.org.au<mailto:williams at auda.org.au>>>><mailto:liz.williams at auda.org.au<mailto:liz.williams at auda.org.au><mailto:liz.williams@<mailto:liz.williams@>
auda.org.au<http://auda.org.au>><mailto:liz.williams at auda.org.au<mailto:liz.williams at auda.org.au><mailto:liz.williams at auda.org.au<mailto:liz.williams at auda.org.au>
>><mailto:liz.williams at auda.org.au<mailto:liz.williams at auda.org.au><mailto:liz.williams at auda.org.au<mailto:liz.williams at auda.org.au>><mailto:l<mailto:l>
iz.williams at auda.org.au<mailto:iz.williams at auda.org.au><mailto:liz.williams at auda.org.au<mailto:liz.williams at auda.org.au>>>>>>> wrote:



Hello everyone



I wanted to start a new thread of conversation about city names ahead of our
upcoming conference call. We are being encouraged by our co-chairs to
think about city names as TLDs. The first point is, perhaps, to recognise
the “success” of some previous city TLDs including Berlin, Paris, NYC and so
on. Those applications went through very specific requirements for
evaluation and, now, hopefully serve the requirements of local communities.
We should hope that, in any new round, the experiences of those cities will
ease the way for future applications because we have learnt something about
how and why applicants apply for place names (and I use the word place
deliberately) as top level domain labels.



For our next round of policy recommendations I wanted to use an example
which I think highlights the difficulties we face if we are prescriptive and
limited in our analysis.



Most of us know that Perth is the capital city of Western Australia. It is
not the capital city of Australia as Canberra has that honour. Relying on a
“is the word a capital city” question is fraught with difficulty. It is
difficult because Perth, Scotland, has at a bare minimum had city status
since the 12th century, far longer than Perth, Australia which also has an
indigenous place name, its colonial name and a migrant demographic where the
largest majority of Perth residents come from England. Things are
complicated by the existence of Perth in Canada which, in its own right, has
some features of a capital and, at the very least, some important historic
linkages.



And then we turn to the generic words which Jon Nevett highlighted in a
previous post (Bath, Save, New) which are also place names.



That leads us to what can we usefully and objectively recommend as treatment
of other names which are also linked to places and how those could be
treated as top level domains. As a starting point, my recommendation would
be that we don’t have any special treatment for place names as TLDs and that
applicants for those names would be evaluated against other business and
technical criteria just like another application. However, we might want to
think about better ways of handling an objection. Those objections, from
whatever quarter, need to be treated in exactly the same way. I don’t
recommend “letters of support or non-objection”. They are too subjective,
fraught with movable political nuance and, in some cases, deeply sensitive
geo-political facts (using Jerusalem as the example).



I look forward to hearing the views of others.



Liz

….
Dr Liz Williams | International Affairs
.au Domain Administration Ltd
M: +61 436 020 595 | +44 7824 877757
E:
liz.williams at auda.org.au<mailto:liz.williams at auda.org.au><mailto:liz.williams at auda.org.au<mailto:liz.williams at auda.org.au>><mailto:liz.william<mailto:liz.william>
s at auda.org.au<mailto:s at auda.org.au><mailto:liz.williams at auda.org.au<mailto:liz.williams at auda.org.au>>><mailto:liz.williams at auda.org<mailto:liz.williams at auda.org>
.au<mailto:liz.williams at auda.org.au<mailto:liz.williams at auda.org.au>><mailto:liz.williams at auda.org.au<mailto:liz.williams at auda.org.au><mailto:
liz.williams at auda.org.au<mailto:liz.williams at auda.org.au>>>><mailto:liz.williams at auda.org.au<mailto:liz.williams at auda.org.au><mailto:liz.willi<mailto:liz.willi>
ams at auda.org.au<mailto:ams at auda.org.au>><mailto:liz.williams at auda.org.au<mailto:liz.williams at auda.org.au><mailto:liz.williams at auda.or<mailto:liz.williams at auda.or>
g.au>><mailto:liz.williams at auda.org.au<mailto:liz.williams at auda.org.au><mailto:liz.williams at auda.org.au<mailto:liz.williams at auda.org.au>><mail
to:liz.williams at auda.org.au<mailto:to%3Aliz.williams at auda.org.au><mailto:liz.williams at auda.org.au<mailto:liz.williams at auda.org.au>>>>><mailto:liz.w<mailto:liz.w>
illiams at auda.org.au<mailto:illiams at auda.org.au><mailto:liz.williams at auda.org.au<mailto:liz.williams at auda.org.au>><mailto:liz.williams at aud<mailto:liz.williams at aud>
a.org.au<http://a.org.au><mailto:liz.williams at auda.org.au<mailto:liz.williams at auda.org.au>>><mailto:liz.williams at auda.org.au<mailto:liz.williams at auda.org.au><m
ailto:liz.williams at auda.org.au<mailto:ailto%3Aliz.williams at auda.org.au>><mailto:liz.williams at auda.org.au<mailto:liz.williams at auda.org.au><mailto:liz.w<mailto:liz.w>
illiams at auda.org.au<mailto:illiams at auda.org.au>>>><mailto:liz.williams at auda.org.au<mailto:liz.williams at auda.org.au><mailto:liz.williams at a<mailto:liz.williams at a>
uda.org.au<http://uda.org.au>><mailto:liz.williams at auda.org.au<mailto:liz.williams at auda.org.au><mailto:liz.williams at auda.org.au<mailto:liz.williams at auda.org.au>>
><mailto:liz.williams at auda.org.au<mailto:liz.williams at auda.org.au><mailto:liz.williams at auda.org.au<mailto:liz.williams at auda.org.au>><mailto:li<mailto:li>
z.williams at auda.org.au<mailto:z.williams at auda.org.au><mailto:liz.williams at auda.org.au<mailto:liz.williams at auda.org.au>>>>>>
www.auda.org.au<http://www.auda.org.au><http://www.auda.org.au><http://www.auda.org.au><http://www.a
uda.org.au/<http://uda.org.au/>><http://www.auda.org.au<http://www.auda.org.au/>><http://www.aud
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