<div dir="ltr">Dear all,<div><br></div><div>I agree with Martin, we need to focus in the ToR and once agreed start our work.</div><div><br></div><div>We should not try to debate on substance now, the time will come for this in the near future.</div><div><br></div><div>Lest focus on the ToR text and find a common ground there.</div><div><br></div><div>Best regards</div><div>Olga</div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">2017-12-01 7:28 GMT-03:00 Annebeth Lange <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:annebeth.lange@norid.no" target="_blank">annebeth.lange@norid.no</a>></span>:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="white" lang="EN-GB" link="blue" vlink="purple">
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Trebuchet MS",sans-serif">+ 1, Martin.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Trebuchet MS",sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Trebuchet MS",sans-serif">Kind regards<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:"Trebuchet MS",sans-serif">Annebeth Lange<u></u><u></u></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Trebuchet MS",sans-serif">Co-leader, WT5<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Trebuchet MS",sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">From: </span></b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 <<a href="mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5-bounces@icann.org" target="_blank">gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5-bounces@<wbr>icann.org</a>> on behalf of Martin Sutton <<a href="mailto:martin@brandregistrygroup.org" target="_blank">martin@brandregistrygroup.org</a><wbr>><br>
<b>Date: </b>Friday, 1 December 2017 at 11:10<br>
<b>To: </b>"<a href="mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5@icann.org" target="_blank">gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5@icann.org</a><wbr>" <<a href="mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5@icann.org" target="_blank">gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5@icann.org</a><wbr>></span></p><div><div class="h5"><br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5] Concerns on the WT5 Terms of Reference and proposed expansion of the scope of geo-names to include other concepts as well<u></u><u></u></div></div><p></p>
</div><div><div class="h5">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Hi everyone,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Observing the email exchanges it seems we are diving into some of the debates that will be resurfaced during the WT5 process. It would be helpful if we could focus back on the primary action of formulating the ToR scope before we begin
to get into the deeper discussions, which we can focus on later. <u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I applaud the enthusiasm of participants, please don’t let that wain. Let’s make sure that enthusiasm and passion is channeled in a positive and respectful way as we move forward with our work, encouraging broad participation and an appreciation
of the different views brought to the group. <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Kind regards,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Martin<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black">Martin Sutton</span></b><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black">Co-Leader, WT5<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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</div>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On 1 Dec 2017, at 08:03, Arasteh <<a href="mailto:kavouss.arasteh@gmail.com" target="_blank">kavouss.arasteh@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Dear Sir <u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Thanks <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">But there a course of action to be taken seeking the views of the country when its heritage , history ,culture, social values, belief ,faits , names of its mountains, Tibet’s, legend dates, names of its cuties, names of dynasties and and
are to be used.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Thus is a courtesy disciple which should be followed.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Multistakeholder approach does not prevent to do so<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">In almost all caves the agreement would be granted . In relatively few caves, agreement would also be granted with some conditions to respond to those values.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">What bothers me is there are a handful number of people ( you joined them for the first time) having a purely conservative behavior collectively and collegiality criticized, attacked and sometimes aggressive to the extent that it could
implied that it was a sort of repression ( dot talk )<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Approach.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">That is not admitted.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">We should know that in this subject the notion of « majority “ /“ minority “ does not apply because the governments that are the stakeholder are always in minority status vis a vis others<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I hope you have properly interpreted the fact mentioned.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Regards<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Have a nice time<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Kavouss <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Sent from my iPhone<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
On 1 Dec 2017, at 02:26, Aslam Mohamed <<a href="mailto:aslam@rnaip.com" target="_blank">aslam@rnaip.com</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
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<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Dear Kavouss<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I respectfully agree with you that it is ‘only’ Heather’s views. I also respect Iran very much. But unfortunately sovereignty cannot extend beyond one's territory. Since ICANN and gTLD are trans national issues sovereignty might not be
able to solve the problem - there will be 200 or more sovereigns having their own assertions - a sure recipe for chaos. And this is without the melee of rights in personam and rem.
<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">That’s why the ICANN Bylaws become important and all stakeholders and managements have to adopt that as the final word, unequivocally.
<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif">Kind Regards</span></b><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif"><br>
<br>
</span></b><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif">Aslam G Mohamed. Advocate</span></b><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif">US Business Development</span></b><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif">Mob <a href="tel:+1%20646%20243%209857" target="_blank">+1 646 243 9857</a></span></b><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif"><br>
<image001.png> <u></u><u></u></span></b></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif"><br>
RNA, Technology and IP Attorneys </span></b><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif"><a href="http://rnaip.com/" target="_blank">rnaip.com</a> </span></b><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Nov 30, 2017, at 3:51 PM, Kavouss Arasteh <<a href="mailto:kavouss.arasteh@gmail.com" target="_blank">kavouss.arasteh@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Dear Aslam<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Thank for the paper<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> However, it is simple the views of Dr. Heather Frorest and not more than that.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">There are thousand of this type of articles which all reflect the views of their authors and nothing more<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Kavouss <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Thu, Nov 30, 2017 at 9:26 PM, Paul Rosenzweig <<a href="mailto:paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com" target="_blank">paul.rosenzweig@<wbr>redbranchconsulting.com</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:#1f497d">S</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:14.0pt;color:#1f497d">orry, Kavoush, but I am not a famous lawyer at all</span><span lang="EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:14.0pt;color:#1f497d"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:14.0pt;color:#1f497d">As for your claim to the “rights” to old names – unless you can cite some law that is nothing more than a claim. It is
not at all “obvious” to me that you have any claim at all to those names … and the paper that Aslam cited makes clear why this is so.</span><span lang="EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:14.0pt;color:#1f497d"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:14.0pt;color:#1f497d">If the basis for this discussion is going to be Iranian claims that it is “obvious” that they are right this is going to
be a very short and fruitless conversation. </span><span lang="EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:14.0pt;color:#1f497d"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:14.0pt;color:#1f497d">Paul</span><span lang="EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:#1f497d"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:#1f497d">Paul Rosenzweig</span><span lang="EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:#1f497d">M:
<a href="tel:(202)%20329-9650" target="_blank">+1 (202) 329-9650</a></span><span lang="EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:#1f497d">VOIP:
<a href="tel:(202)%20738-1739" target="_blank">+1 (202) 738 1739</a></span><span lang="EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:#1f497d"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm;border-color:currentColor currentColor">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US"> Arasteh [mailto:<a href="mailto:kavouss.arasteh@gmail.com" target="_blank">kavouss.arasteh@gmail.<wbr>com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 30, 2017 3:20 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Paul Rosenzweig <<a href="mailto:paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com" target="_blank">paul.rosenzweig@<wbr>redbranchconsulting.com</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Greg Shatan <<a href="mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com" target="_blank">gregshatanipc@gmail.com</a>>; Aslam Mohamed <<a href="mailto:aslam@rnaip.com" target="_blank">aslam@rnaip.com</a>>; Icann Gnso Newgtld Wg Wt5 <<a href="mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5@icann.org" target="_blank">gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5@icann.org</a><wbr>><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5] Concerns on the WT5 Terms of Reference and proposed expansion of the scope of geo-names to include other concepts as well<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Paul <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">I recognise you as one of the most famous well known lawyers in the USA<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">You may wish to consider that for obvious thing there is no to have « so called « international law<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Customer law which is the most oldest and most referenced law could also be used as a proper reference<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">You and none of your supporter has a right I et the Persepolis Which is one of the well known capital of one of the most ancient civilisation Acamanech
in greater Iran<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">No person is authorised to use the name in any level without the co sent of Iran<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Whose who have recognised history understand that<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Kavouss<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang="EN-US"> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div id="m_7666125324336044707m_7958406047397678900AppleMailSignature">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Sent from my iPhone<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang="EN-US"><br>
On 30 Nov 2017, at 17:28, Paul Rosenzweig <<a href="mailto:paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com" target="_blank">paul.rosenzweig@<wbr>redbranchconsulting.com</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:#1f497d">Indeed, I would go further – there is no international law that I know of that gives a nation “sovereign rights” to place names … I invite
you Kavouss to point me to any such expression in binding (or even advisory) international law.</span><span lang="EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:#1f497d"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:#1f497d">Paul</span><span lang="EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:#1f497d"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:#1f497d">Paul Rosenzweig</span><span lang="EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:#1f497d">M:
<a href="tel:(202)%20329-9650" target="_blank">+1 (202) 329-9650</a></span><span lang="EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:#1f497d">VOIP:
<a href="tel:(202)%20738-1739" target="_blank">+1 (202) 738 1739</a></span><span lang="EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:#1f497d"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US"> Greg Shatan [<a href="mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com" target="_blank">mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.<wbr>com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 30, 2017 11:18 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Arasteh <<a href="mailto:kavouss.arasteh@gmail.com" target="_blank">kavouss.arasteh@gmail.com</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Aslam Mohamed <<a href="mailto:aslam@rnaip.com" target="_blank">aslam@rnaip.com</a>>; Icann Gnso Newgtld Wg Wt5 <<a href="mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5@icann.org" target="_blank">gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5@icann.org</a><wbr>>; Paul Rosenzweig <<a href="mailto:paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com" target="_blank">paul.rosenzweig@<wbr>redbranchconsulting.com</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5] Concerns on the WT5 Terms of Reference and proposed expansion of the scope of geo-names to include other concepts as well<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Kavouss has given us a succinct summary of one view of the “primacy issue.” The claim that “there is no primacy issue” is in fact a key part of the primacy
issue (since it really means “there is no issue if you acknowledge the primacy of governments”).<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">I agree that we all need to express our views freely. However, I see no attacks or anything offensive in this thread. Claims of attacks or offensive behavior
have a a chilling effect on the free expression of views. Furthermore, the free expression of differing views includes (by definition) criticisms of those views. A request to abstain from criticism is a request to refrain from dialogue. Clearly, that’s
not happening.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Of course, under the multistakeholder model, if enough of the members of this group support each other’s views that becomes the consensus result of this WT and
this WG. In the meantime those views need to be dealt with in substance, rather than being dismissed without consideration.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">There are claims of legitimate rights on all sides of the issues here. We will need to weigh and analyze the basis of those claims and validity of those claims,
and to determine how to balance the contradictions between various legitimate rights. Sovereignty is no trump card, especially when stacked against the rule of law.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Greg<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">On Thu, Nov 30, 2017 at 10:54 AM Arasteh <<a href="mailto:kavouss.arasteh@gmail.com" target="_blank">kavouss.arasteh@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Dear All<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">There is no primacy issue here.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">It is the sovereignty of governments on the names of their cities, rivers. Historical places, religious holy places legends which must be respected<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">There should be a respect to all these and no commercial interests shall compromise them<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">If there is supremacy on the table it does not come from governments but it from others that which to forced governments to give up their national and historical
heritage<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">You can support each other’s as many time as you wish but that does not deprive any governments from its legitimate rights<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">We need to express our views freely without being criticised , collectively attacked and ofended <u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Tks <u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Kavouss<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div id="m_7666125324336044707m_7958406047397678900m_7543640196716038051AppleMailSignature">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Sent from my iPhone<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
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<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang="EN-US"><br>
On 30 Nov 2017, at 15:44, Paul Rosenzweig <<a href="mailto:paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com" target="_blank">paul.rosenzweig@<wbr>redbranchconsulting.com</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:#1f497d">Robin, Greg and Aslam are completely correct. The repeated efforts by the GAC to assert primacy in the development of rules and policies
is antithetical to the very concept of the multi-stakeholder model. It is particularly necessary to be cautious when GAC primacy is asserted in support of mandates and authoritarian models of behavior.</span><span lang="EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:#1f497d"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:#1f497d">Paul</span><span lang="EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:#1f497d"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:#1f497d">Paul Rosenzweig</span><span lang="EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:#1f497d">M:
<a href="tel:(202)%20329-9650" target="_blank">+1 (202) 329-9650</a></span><span lang="EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:#1f497d">VOIP:
<a href="tel:(202)%20738-1739" target="_blank">+1 (202) 738 1739</a></span><span lang="EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:#1f497d"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US"> Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 [<a href="mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5-bounces@icann.org" target="_blank">mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5-<wbr>bounces@icann.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Greg Shatan<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 30, 2017 1:28 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Aslam Mohamed <<a href="mailto:aslam@rnaip.com" target="_blank">aslam@rnaip.com</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Icann Gnso Newgtld Wg Wt5 <<a href="mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5@icann.org" target="_blank">gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5@icann.org</a><wbr>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5] Concerns on the WT5 Terms of Reference and proposed expansion of the scope of geo-names to include other concepts as well<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Robin;<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Thank you very much for your thoughtful comments, with which I wholeheartedly agree.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">It is important for all participants to acknowledge that the views of each participant carry equal weight and each participant participates on an equal footing.
Characterizing one participant’s comments as “personal views” seems intended to be dismissive. All views here are equally “personal” as all are stakeholders. This is not a cyberspace version of “Animal Farm,” where all animals are equal, but some animals
are more equal than others.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Similarly, it’s important for any participant to be cautious about claiming to speak for other stakeholders without express authorization to do so. This can
appear to an attempt to inflate the importance of one’s own views by claiming they are the views of many. This is not helpful to genuine dialogue, especially in conjunction with attempts to minimize the views of others.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">We are each here to represent the views and concerns of the many in our respective stakeholder communities who do not and cannot participate directly in the ICANN
process. This equivalency is fundamentally important to the success of the multistakeholder process.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Greg<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">On Wed, Nov 29, 2017 at 2:59 PM Aslam Mohamed <<a href="mailto:aslam@rnaip.com" target="_blank">aslam@rnaip.com</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5.0pt;border-color:currentColor currentColor currentColor rgb(204,204,204)">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Dear Kavouss
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">I was quite impressed by your emphatic advocacy for GAC in Abu Dhabi and I see it continues in your comments on ToR in the mail trailed below. However I would
like to meet you sometime or offline and till then emphasize that in a multi stakeholder forum like ICANN, GAC will have to modify it’s approach and not seek GAC primacy in the decision making process. Hence I would suggest we approach the entire WT5 process
in a spirit that GAC advice is NOT binding on the Board and that the GAC would accept this position as and when it arises.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif">Kind Regards</span></b><span lang="EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif">Aslam G Mohamed. Advocate</span></b><span lang="EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif">US Business Development</span></b><span lang="EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif">Mob <a href="tel:+1%20646%20243%209857" target="_blank">+1 646 243 9857</a></span></b><span lang="EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif"><br>
<image001.png></span></b><span lang="EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif"><br>
RNA, Technology and IP Attorneys </span></b><span lang="EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif"><a href="http://rnaip.com/" target="_blank">rnaip.com</a> </span></b><span lang="EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">On Nov 29, 2017, at 2:29 PM, Kavouss Arasteh <<a href="mailto:kavouss.arasteh@gmail.com" target="_blank">kavouss.arasteh@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<h3><span class="m_7666125324336044707m7958406047397678900m7543640196716038051m380318806956740215gmail-gd">Robin Gross</span>
<span class="m_7666125324336044707m7958406047397678900m7543640196716038051m380318806956740215gmail-go">
<a href="https://support.google.com/mail/answer/1311182?hl=en" target="_blank"><span style="color:#222222">via</span></a> <a href="http://icann.org/" target="_blank">icann.org</a> </span><u></u><u></u></h3>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_7666125324336044707m7958406047397678900m7543640196716038051m380318806956740215gmail-g3">6:48 PM (1 hour ago)</span>
<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><img border="0" width="1" height="1" id="m_7666125324336044707_x0000_i1025" src="https://mail.google.com/mail/u/0/images/cleardot.gif"><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><img border="0" width="1" height="1" id="m_7666125324336044707_x0000_i1026" src="https://mail.google.com/mail/u/0/images/cleardot.gif"><u></u><u></u></p>
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<div id="m_7666125324336044707m_7958406047397678900m_7543640196716038051m_380318806956740215gmail-:1o0">
<p class="MsoNormal"><img border="0" width="1" height="1" id="m_7666125324336044707_x0000_i1027" src="https://mail.google.com/mail/u/0/images/cleardot.gif"> within the lines<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_7666125324336044707m7958406047397678900m7543640196716038051m380318806956740215gmail-hb">Dear All, I wish to comment on comments made by Robin</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_7666125324336044707m7958406047397678900m7543640196716038051m380318806956740215gmail-hb">to
</span><span class="m_7666125324336044707m7958406047397678900m7543640196716038051m380318806956740215gmail-g2">gnso-newgtld-w.</span><span class="m_7666125324336044707m7958406047397678900m7543640196716038051m380318806956740215gmail-hb">
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><img border="0" width="1" height="1" id="m_7666125324336044707_x0000_i1028" src="https://mail.google.com/mail/u/0/images/cleardot.gif"><u></u><u></u></p>
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<div id="m_7666125324336044707m_7958406047397678900m_7543640196716038051m_380318806956740215gmail-:1ny">
<div id="m_7666125324336044707m_7958406047397678900m_7543640196716038051m_380318806956740215gmail-:1nn">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">I didn’t have audio on last night’s WT5 call, so thought I’d send my comments directly to the list today about the proposed Terms of Reference revealed yesterday.<br>
<br>
<em><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Paragraph 1: It is not appropriate to include an “approval" model as something this group will make recommendations on, that presumptively moves away from the model that the GNSO and Board created in the last
round, which intentionally and explicitly did not require a permission-based model for names. It is simply inappropriate for this fundamental policy change to be slipped-in to the Terms of Reference before we begin our work. We would be ill-advised to “put
the cart before the horse”, but this bracketed language does exactly that.</span></em><br>
<br>
<span style="color:blue">Reply</span><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:blue">This is your views,
</span><span lang="EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:blue">Views of many GAC MEMBER<em><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">
</span></em>is entirely <em><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">in line with draft
</span></em>The course of action mentioned by the Board is before 2016 there were two procedure either seeking agreement or apply the mitigation. Several GAC<em><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">
</span></em>members opposed to the second option <em><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">.There are</span></em>
<em><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">several GAC ADVICE IN THIS REGARD</span></em></span><span lang="EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><em><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:blue"> .</span></em><span lang="EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><em><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Paragraph 2: Regulating "names with a cultural significance" and "names with economic significance" are outside the
scope of this PDP. This is a PDP regarding geo-names, so adding-on two additional types of names into the ToR is an inappropriate expansion of the scope of this group’s mandate. Let’s focus on defining what “geo-names” are, rather than including other concepts
into the ToR -- that are geo-names. This PDP was set-up to work on geo-names, the chartering organizations agreed to participate under the understanding that it would be limited to geo-names, so we need to stick to our mandate and our agreement in setting
up the WT</span></em><span lang="EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:blue">Reply</span><span lang="EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:blue">Again this is your personal views as many GAC members associate crucial importance to these two criteria
<br>
</span><span lang="EN-US"><br>
While I support giving significant consideration to risks in our analysis, let's flesh this concept out more and also include benefits in the analysis, rather than being singularly focused on risks. We are in danger of having a wholly “negative” analysis
that won’t consider “positives” as well. We may wish to recognize that some risks are worth taking and consider some element of a risk-to-benefit analysis in order to be more complete in our own evaluation. Our analysis should recognize that some issues
create risks to one part of ICANN community while simultaneously creating benefits to other parts of the ICANN community — we need to consider how we will handle such mixed outcomes and viewpoints in our analysis. So I think this can be a highly useful approach,
but needs to be fleshed out, balanced, and nuanced a bit further in light of the complexities.<br>
<em><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:blue">Reply</span></em><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><em><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:blue">While I disagree to start with risk based approach at the begining of the process , I disagree with you
catégorisions it as negative</span></em><span lang="EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><em><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Regards</span></em><span lang="EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Kavouss
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
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</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">On Wed, Nov 29, 2017 at 7:56 PM, Martin Sutton <<a href="mailto:martin@brandregistrygroup.org" target="_blank">martin@brandregistrygroup.org</a><wbr>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5.0pt;border-color:currentColor currentColor currentColor rgb(204,204,204)">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Hi Robin,
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Thank you for sending through your comments. We will combine your comments on the ToR with those provided on the call and subsequent submissions from WT5 members,
so we can review on next week’s call.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Regarding the risk approach, I over-simplified the slides in order to focus attention on drawing out the risks as a primary goal before leading us into assessing
the risks. At that stage we must look at whether the risks themselves warrant any specific controls (beyond the monitoring and enforcement mechanisms for a live registry) and how these could impact any positive elements of enabling new gTLDs relating to geographic
terms. This is an important aspect of the process and needs to balance the risks we are concerned about with the level of controls applied. Back to my physics days, every action has an equal and opposite reaction - so as we move the dial of controls, we do
need to appreciate the impact of such changes with the aim of achieving an acceptable balance. I should have made that clearer and I note that some of the comments in the chat I have subsequently read picked up on this point as well.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Kind regards,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Martin<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_7666125324336044707m7958406047397678900m7543640196716038051m380318806956740215hoenzb"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:#888888"> </span></span><span lang="EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#888888">Martin Sutton</span></b><span lang="EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#888888">Executive Director</span><span lang="EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#888888">Brand Registry Group</span><span lang="EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#888888"><a href="mailto:martin@brandregistrygroup.org" target="_blank">martin@brandregistrygroup.org</a></span><span lang="EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">On 29 Nov 2017, at 17:48, Robin Gross <<a href="mailto:robin@ipjustice.org" target="_blank">robin@ipjustice.org</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">I didn’t have audio on last night’s WT5 call, so thought I’d send my comments directly to the list today about the proposed Terms of Reference revealed yesterday.<br>
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Paragraph 1: It is not appropriate to include an “approval" model as something this group will make recommendations on, that presumptively moves away from the model that the GNSO and Board created in the last round, which intentionally and explicitly did not
require a permission-based model for names. It is simply inappropriate for this fundamental policy change to be slipped-in to the Terms of Reference before we begin our work. We would be ill-advised to “put the cart before the horse”, but this bracketed
language does exactly that.<br>
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Paragraph 2: Regulating "names with a cultural significance" and "names with economic significance" are outside the scope of this PDP. This is a PDP regarding geo-names, so adding-on two additional types of names into the ToR is an inappropriate expansion
of the scope of this group’s mandate. Let’s focus on defining what “geo-names” are, rather than including other concepts into the ToR -- that are geo-names. This PDP was set-up to work on geo-names, the chartering organizations agreed to participate under
the understanding that it would be limited to geo-names, so we need to stick to our mandate and our agreement in setting up the WT.
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While I support giving significant consideration to risks in our analysis, let's flesh this concept out more and also include benefits in the analysis, rather than being singularly focused on risks. We are in danger of having a wholly “negative” analysis that
won’t consider “positives” as well. We may wish to recognize that some risks are worth taking and consider some element of a risk-to-benefit analysis in order to be more complete in our own evaluation. Our analysis should recognize that some issues create
risks to one part of ICANN community while simultaneously creating benefits to other parts of the ICANN community — we need to consider how we will handle such mixed outcomes and viewpoints in our analysis. So I think this can be a highly useful approach,
but needs to be fleshed out, balanced, and nuanced a bit further in light of the complexities.<br>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
Robin<br>
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