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Hello everyone
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<div class="">I have been following carefully this thread of conversations about geographic names and I think we need to step back a little. It may be helpful to come up with all kinds of lists but what for?</div>
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<div class="">The only utility of lists is to ensure that whatever policy we come to a consensus on can be used as independent, objective maps against which to a) advise applicants about what may or may not be possible; b) assist evaluators in assessing the
veracity of applications and c) as compliance tools to ensure correct implementation of the registry contract. “Lists” designed to prevent, constrain, limit just for the sake of being limited is, I don’t think, where we want to be for the next generation
of the Internet. And we may, unwittingly, prevent the very opportunities we seek for social, cultural, linguistic communities to represent themselves.</div>
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</div>
<div class="">Could I urge us to remember that, in our work, we also need to focus on a key element of ICANN’s mission & core values (<a href="https://www.icann.org/resources/pages/governance/bylaws-en/#article1" class="">https://www.icann.org/resources/pages/governance/bylaws-en/#article1</a>)
which is to promote innovation and competition.</div>
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</div>
<div class="">Liz</div>
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</div>
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<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On 5 Apr 2018, at 9:31 pm, Harish Chowdhary <<a href="mailto:harish@nixi.in" class="">harish@nixi.in</a>> wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">Dear All,<br class="">
<br class="">
As per Manual for the national standardization of geographical names United Nations Group of Experts on Geographical Names Defining a geographical name<br class="">
<br class="">
The United Nations Group of Experts on Geographical Names defines a geographical name as a name applied to a feature on Earth (Glossary, 216). In general, a geographical name is the proper name (a specific word, combination of words, or expression) used consistently
in language to refer to a particular place, feature or area having a recognizable identity on the surface of the Earth. Named features include:<br class="">
<br class="">
1. Populated places (for example, cities, towns, villages)<br class="">
2. Civil divisions (for example, States, cantons, districts, boroughs)<br class="">
3. Natural features (for example, streams, mountains, capes, lakes, seas)<br class="">
4. Constructed features (for example, dams, airports, highways)<br class="">
5. Unbounded places or areas that have specific local (often religious) meaning (for example, grazing lands, fishing areas, sacred areas)<br class="">
<br class="">
A geographical name may also be referred to as a topographical name or toponym (a term that in a wider context can also include extraterrestrial names, such as names applied to features on the<u class=""><strong class=""> Moon or on other planets).</strong></u><br class="">
<br class="">
To determine what languages to include we may use the status of each language in each country where it is used in the Status element of a language . The first is an estimate of the overall development versus endangerment of the language using the EGIDS (Expanded
Graded Intergenerational Disruption Scale) scale (Lewis and Simons 2010). The second is a categorization of the Official Recognition given to a language within the country.<br class="">
<br class="">
The EGIDS consists of 13 levels with each higher number on the scale representing a greater level of disruption to the intergenerational transmission of the language.<br class="">
<br class="">
Link : <a href="https://www.ethnologue.com/about/language-status" class="">https://www.ethnologue.com/about/language-status</a><br class="">
<br class="">
ICANN is also using this scale in Lable Generation Panels to determine Lable Generaion Rules and including languages upto level 5.<br class="">
<br class="">
Link : <a href="https://www.icann.org/en/system/files/files/proposal-latin-lgr-15may17-en.pdf" class="">
https://www.icann.org/en/system/files/files/proposal-latin-lgr-15may17-en.pdf</a><br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
Thanks,<br class="">
<span style="font-size:14px;" class=""><strong class=""><span style="font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif;" class="">Harish Chowdhary,<br class="">
Technology Analyst,<br class="">
National Internet Exchange of India</span></strong><br class="">
<strong class="">ISOC IETF FELLOW<br class="">
inSIG 2017 FELLOW</strong></span><br class="">
<a href="http://nixi.in/" class="">www.nixi.in</a> | <a href="http://indiaig.in/" class="">
www.indiaig.in</a><br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
From: Yrjö Länsipuro <<a href="mailto:yrjo_lansipuro@hotmail.com" class="">yrjo_lansipuro@hotmail.com</a>><br class="">
Sent: Thu, 5 Apr 2018 16:13:44 GMT+0530<br class="">
To: Jaap Akkerhuis <<a href="mailto:jaap@NLnetLabs.nl" class="">jaap@NLnetLabs.nl</a>>, "<a href="mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5@icann.org" class="">gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5@icann.org</a>" <<a href="mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5@icann.org" class="">gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5@icann.org</a>><br class="">
Subject: Re: [Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5] Notes and Action Items - New gTLDSubsequent Procedures PDP Work Track 5 - 04 April 2018<br class="">
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<div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" class="">Hi all,</div>
<p style="margin-top:0; margin-bottom:0" class=""> </p>
<div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" class="">The UN Group of Experts on Geographic Names (UNGEGN) list is rather more straightforward and unequivocal about which languages are "official" in each country (presumably based on information from UN
member countries themselves)</div>
<div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" class="">It doesn't go as deep as ISO lists - no mention of Frisian, or of status of three different variants Sámi in certain municipalities of Finnish Lapland, for that matter.</div>
<p style="margin-top:0; margin-bottom:0" class=""> </p>
<div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" class="">For our purposes, the UNGEGN list should be enough, and IMHO relevant for country
<b class="">names </b>as for ISO is for their <b class="">codes</b>.</div>
<p style="margin-top:0; margin-bottom:0" class=""> </p>
<div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" class=""><a href="https://unstats.un.org/unsd/geoinfo/UNGEGN/docs/26th-gegn-docs/WP/WP54_UNGEGN%20WG%20Country%20Names%20Document%202011.pdf" class="">https://unstats.un.org/unsd/geoinfo/UNGEGN/docs/26th-gegn-docs/WP/WP54_UNGEGN%20WG%20Country%20Names%20Document%202011.pdf</a></div>
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<a cgi-bin="" href="https://<a href=" https:="" id="LPUrlAnchor_15229247649460.7578437174233046" prolinks.rediffmailpro.comprored.cgi="" style="text-decoration: none;" class="">unstats.un.org</a>/unsd/geoinfo/UNGEGN/docs/26th-gegn-docs/WP/WP54_UNGEGN%20WG%20Country%20Names%20Document%202011.pdf"
target="_blank" target='_blank' rel=external>UNGEGN list of country names - the United Nations - UNSD</div>
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<a href="http://unstats.un.org/" class="">unstats.un.org</a></div>
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UNGEGN List of Country Names Introduction During its 16th Session (New York, 1992), the United Nations Group of Experts on Geographical Names (UNGEGN) re- convened its working group to establish the official forms of country names.</div>
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<div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" class="">UNGEGN website: <a href="https://unstats.un.org/UNSD/geoinfo/UNGEGN/default.html" class="">
</a><a href="https://unstats.un.org/UNSD/geoinfo/UNGEGN/default.html" class="">https://unstats.un.org/UNSD/geoinfo/UNGEGN/default.html</a></div>
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<div id="LPTitle_15229249245220.963401067155432" style="top: 0px; color: rgb(0, 120, 215); font-weight: 400; font-size: 21px; font-family: "wf_segoe-ui_light", "Segoe UI Light", "Segoe WP Light", "Segoe UI", "Segoe WP", Tahoma, Arial, sans-serif; line-height: 21px;" class="">
<a href="https://unstats.un.org/UNSD/geoinfo/UNGEGN/default.html" id="LPUrlAnchor_15229249245220.8027188211672027" rel="external" style="text-decoration: none;" target="_blank" class="">United Nations Group of Experts on Geographical Names - UNGEGN</a></div>
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<a href="http://unstats.un.org" class="">unstats.un.org</a></div>
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In 1959, the Economic and Social Council (ECOSOC) paved the way for a small group of experts to meet and provide technical recommendations on standardizing geographical names at the national and international levels.</div>
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<div dir="ltr" id="divRplyFwdMsg" class=""><font face="Calibri, sans-serif" style="font-size:11pt" class=""><b class="">From:</b> Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 <<a href="mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5-bounces@icann.org" class="">gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5-bounces@icann.org</a>>
on behalf of Jaap Akkerhuis <<a href="mailto:jaap@NLnetLabs.nl" class="">jaap@NLnetLabs.nl</a>><br class="">
<b class="">Sent:</b> Thursday, April 5, 2018 12:58 PM<br class="">
<b class="">To:</b> <a href="mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5@icann.org" class="">gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5@icann.org</a><br class="">
<b class="">Subject:</b> Re: [Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5] Notes and Action Items - New gTLD Subsequent Procedures PDP Work Track 5 - 04 April 2018</font>
<div class=""> </div>
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<div class="BodyFragment">
<div class="PlainText"><font size="2" class=""><span style="font-size:11pt" class="">Annebeth Lange writes:<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
> Would a possibility be to include only the official language(s) of all<br class="">
> countries, or would that be too much as well? I agree with Javier that<br class="">
> UN Languages, plus the official language of the country is the easiest.<br class="">
> However, it is fairly restricted, as there are many languages in the<br class="">
> world used extensively by others, to take German and Portuguese as an<br class="">
> example.<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
At first sight this seems easy, but I'm afraid it is yet another can<br class="">
of worms. One needs to define what "Official languages" means.<br class="">
<br class="">
When the second Edition on of 3166-1 came out in 2006, a columns where<br class="">
added which contains additional information. The description of this<br class="">
column is (quoting ISO 3166-1-2006):<br class="">
<br class="">
- 9 (informative) The alpha-2 ISO 639 code element of each<br class="">
administrative language of the country (with a dash when the<br class="">
code element is missing);<br class="">
<br class="">
- 10 (informative) The alpha-3 (terminological version) ISO<br class="">
639 code element of each administrative language of the<br class="">
country (with a dash when the code element is missing);<br class="">
<br class="">
The term "administrative language" is chosen because there don't seem<br class="">
to be a list of official languages of a country available.<br class="">
<br class="">
The path to such a list will be way more complicated then one hopes.<br class="">
Here are some random problems:<br class="">
<br class="">
For the Netherlands, the ISO OBP lists in part 1 NLD (Dutch)<br class="">
only but for part 2 list for a subdivision Frisian as well.<br class="">
And as far as I know, Frisian can be used as official language<br class="">
under certain conditions (in court is one of them). The CIA<br class="">
handbook list a couple more as being used<br class="">
<<a href="https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/fields/2098.html#nl" class="">https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/fields/2098.html#nl</a>>.
</span></font>
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<font size="2" class=""><span style="font-size:11pt" class=""><a href="https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/fields/2098.html#nl" class="">The World Factbook — Central Intelligence Agency</a></span></font></div>
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<font size="2" class=""><span style="font-size:11pt" class=""><a href="http://www.cia.gov/" class="">www.cia.gov</a></span></font></div>
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<font size="2" class=""><span style="font-size:11pt" class="">The Office of Public Affairs (OPA) is the single point of contact for all inquiries about the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA). We read every letter, fax, or e-mail we receive, and we will convey
your comments to CIA officials outside OPA as appropriate.</span></font></div>
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<br class="">
<font size="2" class=""><span style="font-size:11pt" class=""> On the Government site I found an article stating that for the<br class="">
revision of the constitutions maybe it is time to say<br class="">
something about the language used<br class="">
<<a href="https://www.government.nl/latest/news/2010/02/12/dutch-language-enshrined-in-the-constitution" class="">https://www.government.nl/latest/news/2010/02/12/dutch-language-enshrined-in-the-constitution</a>>.<br class="">
<br class="">
For India, ISO lists two languages for part 1 (eng, hin), and<br class="">
part 2 just one (en) while the CIA fact book lists a 14<br class="">
official languages.<br class="">
<br class="">
The USA doesn't has an official language and there are regular<br class="">
heated debates whether there should be one.<br class="">
<br class="">
I'm afraid that this will lead to yet another extensive discussion but<br class="">
not a lot of results that can be used in the scope of this work track.<br class="">
<br class="">
jaap<br class="">
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