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    <p>Yes, cities can have long history in older cultures -- wars were
      fought and people died over them.</p>
    <p><br>
    </p>
    <p>In Canada, municipal governments are subdivisions of their
      province. While they have autonomy on most decisions, all by-laws
      passed are subject to change by the provincial government at any
      time. So cities exist at the pleasure of the provincial
      governments. <br>
    </p>
    <p><br>
    </p>
    <p>Leaves one to wonder if the province could deny the city the
      right to it's TLD.<span class="moz-smiley-s2"><span>:-(</span></span>
      This is a pretty slippery slope......<br>
    </p>
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    <p>Marita<br>
    </p>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 5/2/2018 11:17 AM, Yrjö Länsipuro
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:DB5PR10MB0118FDF2AB693D00AB3766B7FF800@DB5PR10MB0118.EURPRD10.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM">
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        <p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0">Dear all,</p>
        <p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0"><br>
        </p>
        <p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0">Cities have been
          founded, incorporated and given various privileges - including
          their names - in the course of history by kings and emperors
          and other assorted authorities, and in my non-lawyer´s
          mind, documents attesting to those acts, scribbled on
          parchment or whatever, are the legal basis. More important,
          from end-users´ point of view, is the political ownership felt
          by the citizens.</p>
        <p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0"><br>
        </p>
        <p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0">For reference,  attached
          please find an excerpt of the founding document  of my home
          city Tampere/Tammerfors in 1779, signed by king Gustaf III.</p>
        <p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0"><br>
        </p>
        <p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0">Best,</p>
        <p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0"><br>
        </p>
        <p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0">Yrjö<br>
        </p>
        <p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0"><br>
        </p>
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            contenttype="image/png" style="max-width: 99.9%;"
            id="img228568" tabindex="0"
            src="cid:part1.EF21F1CA.2F543B1D@ca.inter.net" class=""><br>
        </p>
        <p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0"><br>
        </p>
        <p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0"><br>
        </p>
        <br>
        <br>
        <div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
          <hr style="display:inline-block;width:98%" tabindex="-1">
          <div id="divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font style="font-size:11pt"
              face="Calibri, sans-serif" color="#000000"><b>From:</b>
              Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5
              <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5-bounces@icann.org"><gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5-bounces@icann.org></a> on behalf of
              Alexander Schubert <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:alexander@schubert.berlin"><alexander@schubert.berlin></a><br>
              <b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, May 2, 2018 5:16 PM<br>
              <b>To:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5@icann.org">gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5@icann.org</a><br>
              <b>Subject:</b> Re: [Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5] Conference call:
              city names</font>
            <div> </div>
          </div>
          <div link="blue" vlink="purple" lang="EN-US">
            <div class="x_WordSection1">
              <p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;
                  font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Dear Greg,</span></p>
              <p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;
                  font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> </span></p>
              <p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;
                  font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">You write:
                  <br>
                          <b><i><span style="color:#1F4E79">“…..but a
                        ‘first right’ based on a geographic name is
                        troublesome on several levels. But one
                        fundamental question jumps out -- what right is
                        this first right based on?”</span></i></b><br>
                  <br>
                  If we talk about sizeable (or otherwise “important”)
                  cities:</span></p>
              <p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;
                  font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Nobody has
                  a “first right” obviously. Why should anybody. But if
                  a string is (should be) poised to serve as identifier
                  for a sizeable amount of people (e.g. larger cities) –
                  I think we do not have to search for “international
                  law”; it should be self-evident that such an
                  infrastructure resource like a city-gTLD is NOT
                  assigned lightly to “some entity” – but that the
                  representatives of the city are looped in. There is
                  morality and a “sense of common good” OUTSIDE of
                  established law. At least in Good Old Europe.
                </span></p>
              <p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;
                  font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> </span></p>
              <p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;
                  font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">But I
                  completely agree with you if we talk about “minor”
                  geographical entities – such as a small stream or a
                  hill. Or a tiny dwelling somewhere in the nowhere.
                  Especially if there is an entity that is MUCH better
                  known to the public (e.g. a well-known brand  vs. a
                  small mountain) or if it is identical to a generic
                  term: “.new” and the New River.<br>
                  <br>
                  The big question is: How do we policy the line that
                  separates the entities that deserve “protection” from
                  the rest? A repository? Lists of any sort? Population
                  size? Or maybe a panel that decides case by case
                  (caution: Beauty contest alarm)? But having no
                  protections at all is not going to work. To LOWER the
                  already low bar is bonkers in my mind. I wish GAC
                  would pay more attention – there are forces trying to
                  take away DNS infrastructure from The People.<br>
                  <br>
                  <br>
                  Thanks,</span></p>
              <p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;
                  font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> </span></p>
              <p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;
                  font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Alexander.berlin<br>
                  <br>
                  <br>
                  <br>
                  <br>
                </span></p>
              <p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;
                  font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> </span></p>
              <p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;
                  font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> </span></p>
              <p class="x_MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;
                    font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span
                  style="font-size:11.0pt;
                  font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">
                  Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5
                  [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5-bounces@icann.org">mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5-bounces@icann.org</a>]
                  <b>On Behalf Of </b>Greg Shatan<br>
                  <b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, May 02, 2018 7:42 AM<br>
                  <b>To:</b> David Cake <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:dave@davecake.net"><dave@davecake.net></a><br>
                  <b>Cc:</b> leonard obonyo via Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5
                  <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5@icann.org"><gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5@icann.org></a><br>
                  <b>Subject:</b> Re: [Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5] Conference
                  call: city names</span></p>
              <p class="x_MsoNormal"> </p>
              <div>
                <div>
                  <p class="x_MsoNormal"><span
                      style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">I
                      find myself generally in agreement with Liz
                      Williams.  There are more nuances to unpack than I
                      have time for, but a "first right" based on a
                      geographic name is troublesome on several levels.
                      But one fundamental question jumps out -- what
                      right is this first right based on?  Is there a
                      legal basis for this?  (Jorge tells us that his
                      government would make a decision "based on law",
                      so it would be useful to know what law we're
                      talking about.)  Requiring a "letter of support or
                      non-objection" is also troublesome and not just
                      for the reasons Liz mentions.  (I hope we do not
                      have to pore through each of the letters of
                      support/non-objection from the first round to
                      highlight the problems they cause, but if we are
                      going to, this should be a job for the WG as a
                      whole, not an assignment for Liz.)  I recognize
                      that, as Jorge say, it "works well for
                      governments."  Well, of course it does!  It
                      completely favors governments, and was imposed by
                      governments (i.e., the GAC).  The problem is that
                      it doesn't work well for anyone else, and it is
                      not well-grounded in the rule of law (unless we
                      are thinking of something akin to the
                      <i>droit de seigneur</i>, or perhaps the Divine
                      Right of Kings).</span></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class="x_MsoNormal"><span
                      style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"> </span></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class="x_MsoNormal"><span
                      style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">I
                      don't know if I'll be able to be on any part of
                      the call starting shortly, since it is running
                      from 1-2:30 am my time, and I don't do well on 4
                      hours of sleep....  If am not, please accept my
                      apologies.</span></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class="x_MsoNormal"><span
                      style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"> </span></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class="x_MsoNormal"><span
                      style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">Greg</span></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class="x_MsoNormal"><span
                      style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"> </span></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class="x_MsoNormal"><span
                      style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"> </span></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class="x_MsoNormal"><span
                      style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"> </span></p>
                </div>
              </div>
              <div>
                <p class="x_MsoNormal"> </p>
                <div>
                  <p class="x_MsoNormal">On Mon, Apr 30, 2018 at 11:48
                    PM, David Cake <<a
                      href="mailto:dave@davecake.net" target="_blank"
                      id="LPlnk141392" class="OWAAutoLink"
                      previewremoved="true" moz-do-not-send="true">dave@davecake.net</a>>
                    wrote:</p>
                  <blockquote style="border:none; border-left:solid
                    #CCCCCC 1.0pt; padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;
                    margin-left:4.8pt; margin-right:0cm">
                    <div>
                      <p class="x_MsoNormal">Perth is not even unique
                        within Australia, there is a small town in
                        Tasmania. But the point about ambiguity
                        remaining even if we restrict it to concepts
                        like ‘capital’ is a very good one. </p>
                      <div>
                        <p class="x_MsoNormal"> </p>
                      </div>
                      <div>
                        <p class="x_MsoNormal">David (resident of the
                          Western Australian Perth)</p>
                        <div>
                          <p class="x_MsoNormal"><br>
                            <br>
                          </p>
                          <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;
                            margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                            <div>
                              <div>
                                <div>
                                  <p class="x_MsoNormal">On 30 Apr 2018,
                                    at 1:18 pm, Liz Williams <<a
                                      href="mailto:liz.williams@auda.org.au"
                                      target="_blank" id="LPlnk197662"
                                      class="OWAAutoLink"
                                      previewremoved="true"
                                      moz-do-not-send="true">liz.williams@auda.org.au</a>>
                                    wrote:</p>
                                </div>
                                <p class="x_MsoNormal"> </p>
                              </div>
                            </div>
                            <div>
                              <div>
                                <div>
                                  <div>
                                    <p class="x_MsoNormal">Hello
                                      everyone  </p>
                                    <div>
                                      <p class="x_MsoNormal"> </p>
                                    </div>
                                    <div>
                                      <p class="x_MsoNormal">I wanted to
                                        start a new thread of
                                        conversation about city names
                                        ahead of our upcoming conference
                                        call.   We are being encouraged
                                        by our co-chairs to think about
                                        city names as TLDs. The first
                                        point is, perhaps, to recognise
                                        the “success” of some previous
                                        city TLDs including Berlin,
                                        Paris, NYC and so on.  Those
                                        applications went through very
                                        specific requirements for
                                        evaluation and, now, hopefully
                                        serve the requirements of local
                                        communities.  We should hope
                                        that, in any new round, the
                                        experiences of those cities will
                                        ease the way for future
                                        applications because we have
                                        learnt something about how and
                                        why applicants apply for place
                                        names (and I use the word place
                                        deliberately) as top level
                                        domain labels.</p>
                                    </div>
                                    <div>
                                      <p class="x_MsoNormal"> </p>
                                    </div>
                                    <div>
                                      <p class="x_MsoNormal">For our
                                        next round of policy
                                        recommendations I wanted to use
                                        an example which I think
                                        highlights the difficulties we
                                        face if we are prescriptive and
                                        limited in our analysis.</p>
                                    </div>
                                    <div>
                                      <p class="x_MsoNormal"> </p>
                                    </div>
                                    <div>
                                      <p class="x_MsoNormal">Most of us
                                        know that Perth is the capital
                                        city of Western Australia.  It
                                        is not the capital city of
                                        Australia as Canberra has that
                                        honour.  Relying on a “is the
                                        word a capital city” question is
                                        fraught with difficulty.   It is
                                        difficult because Perth,
                                        Scotland, has at a bare minimum
                                        had city status since the 12th
                                        century, far longer than Perth,
                                        Australia which also has an
                                        indigenous place name, its
                                        colonial name and a migrant
                                        demographic where the largest
                                        majority of Perth residents come
                                        from England.  Things are
                                        complicated by the existence of
                                        Perth in Canada which, in its
                                        own right, has some features of
                                        a capital and, at the very
                                        least, some important historic
                                        linkages.</p>
                                    </div>
                                    <div>
                                      <p class="x_MsoNormal"> </p>
                                    </div>
                                    <div>
                                      <p class="x_MsoNormal">And then we
                                        turn to the generic words which
                                        Jon Nevett highlighted in a
                                        previous post (Bath, Save, New)
                                        which are also place names.</p>
                                    </div>
                                    <div>
                                      <p class="x_MsoNormal"> </p>
                                    </div>
                                    <div>
                                      <p class="x_MsoNormal">That leads
                                        us to what can we usefully and
                                        objectively recommend as
                                        treatment of other names which
                                        are also linked to places and
                                        how those could be treated as
                                        top level domains.  As a
                                        starting point, my
                                        recommendation would be that we
                                        don’t have any special treatment
                                        for place names as TLDs and that
                                        applicants for those names would
                                        be evaluated against other
                                        business and technical criteria
                                        just like another application. 
                                        However, we might want to think
                                        about better ways of handling an
                                        objection.  Those objections,
                                        from whatever quarter, need to
                                        be treated in exactly the same
                                        way.  I don’t recommend “letters
                                        of support or non-objection”. 
                                        They are too subjective, fraught
                                        with movable political nuance
                                        and, in some cases, deeply
                                        sensitive geo-political facts
                                        (using Jerusalem as the
                                        example).</p>
                                    </div>
                                    <div>
                                      <p class="x_MsoNormal"> </p>
                                    </div>
                                    <div>
                                      <p class="x_MsoNormal">I look
                                        forward to hearing the views of
                                        others.</p>
                                    </div>
                                    <div>
                                      <p class="x_MsoNormal"> </p>
                                    </div>
                                    <div>
                                      <p class="x_MsoNormal">Liz</p>
                                    </div>
                                    <div>
                                      <div>
                                        <p class="x_MsoNormal"><span
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                                            Dr Liz Williams |
                                            International Affairs<br>
                                            .au Domain Administration
                                            Ltd<br>
                                            M: +61 436 020 595 | +44
                                            7824 877757<br>
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                              <p class="x_MsoNormal">_______________________________________________<br>
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      <pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5@icann.org">Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5@icann.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5</a></pre>
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