<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div class="">Govts have yet to show:</div><div class=""> i) People do not have the legal right to use words with geographic meaning in ways that do not misrepresent their connection to the word, and</div><div class=""> ii) Govts are the exclusive arbiter of who gets to use words with geographic meaning.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">So we’ve already taken quite a leap of logic with the no-objection letter implementation since it takes both those above points entirely for granted.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">In fact:</div><div class="">People have freedom of expression rights, trademark rights, and other legal rights to use words with geographic meanings in ways that govts may not like. That is the law. And ICANN is obligated to follow the law, not invent fantasy rights for governments to control the use of words on the Internet. What a can of worms for us to open!</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Robin</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On May 3, 2018, at 1:12 AM, Mike Rodenbaugh <<a href="mailto:mike@rodenbaugh.com" class="">mike@rodenbaugh.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class="">Yes we are all aware of that appellate decision. France is notoriously protectionist about its geographic names. That matter is far from over, as the US courts most likely will weigh in next, as <a href="http://france.com/" class="">france.com</a> is registered with Verisign in the US. <div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">You may also remember the City of Paris was <a href="https://www.emedialaw.com/city-of-paris-ordered-to-pay-for-reverse-domain-name-hijacking-in-groundbreaking-decision/" class="">found guilty of reverse domain name hijacking</a> and ordered to pay $125,000 to the registrant of <a href="http://parvi.org/" class="">parvi.org</a>, six years ago. "<span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:ff-dagny-web-pro-1,ff-dagny-web-pro-2,helvetica,arial;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial;float:none;display:inline" class="">The effort was part of an all out war by the City of Paris over domain names held by U.S. citizens such as <a href="http://wifiparis.com" class="">WifiParis.com</a>, <a href="http://wifi-paris.com" class="">Wifi-Paris.com</a>, <a href="http://paris.com/" class="">paris.com</a> and <a href="http://paris.tv/" class="">paris.tv</a>." The effort was a total failure for Paris, and I bet it will be a total failure for France in the <a href="http://france.com/" class="">france.com</a> matter as well.</span></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all" class=""><div class=""><div class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr" class=""><div style="font-family:arial;font-size:small" class="">Mike Rodenbaugh</div><div style="font-family:arial;font-size:small" class="">RODENBAUGH LAW</div><div style="font-family:arial;font-size:small" class="">tel/fax: +1.415.738.8087</div><div style="font-family:arial;font-size:small" class=""><a href="http://rodenbaugh.com/" target="_blank" class="">http://rodenbaugh.com</a> </div></div></div></div>
<br class=""><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, May 3, 2018 at 1:02 AM, Harish Chowdhary <span dir="ltr" class=""><<a href="mailto:harish@nixi.in" target="_blank" class="">harish@nixi.in</a>></span> wrote:<br class=""><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Hi,<br class=""><br class="">>>Governments also have infinite, obvious alternatives to <.city> TLDs, such as <.citygovernment>, <.citycouncil>, <.citytourism>, etc. Perhaps surprisingly, governments have >>managed to survive for the past 30 years even though they have not had the legal the right to "their" <<a href="http://city.com/" target="_blank" class="">city.com</a>> or even <city.ccTLD> second level domain names. They still >>have no such legal right at any level of the DNS. <span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:small;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial;float:none;display:inline" class="">Some governments' fantasy to own such rights is just that, fantasy. </span><br class=""><br class="">It is to inform that<br class=""><br class="">"France seizes <a href="http://france.com/" target="_blank" class="">France.com</a>" on the basis of the Paris Court of Appeals ruled that<u class=""><strong class=""> <a href="http://france.com/" target="_blank" class="">France.com</a></strong></u> was violating French trademark law.<br class=""><br class="">Details : <a href="https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2018/04/france-seizes-france-com-from-man-whos-had-it-since-94-so-he-sues/" target="_blank" class="">https://arstechnica.com/tech-<wbr class="">policy/2018/04/france-seizes-<wbr class="">france-com-from-man-whos-had-<wbr class="">it-since-94-so-he-sues/</a><br class=""><br class=""><strong class="">Thanks,<br class="">Harish Chowdhary,<br class="">Technology Analyst,<br class="">National Internet Exchange of India</strong><br class=""><span style="color:#0000ff" class=""><strong class="">ISOC FELLOW | inSIG FELLOW<br class="">IIREF FELLOW | UASG AMBASSADOR</strong></span><br class=""><a href="http://www.nixi.in/" target="_blank" class=""><span style="color:#0000ff" class="">www.nixi.in</span></a><span style="color:#0000ff" class=""> | </span><a href="http://www.indiaig.in/" target="_blank" class=""><span style="color:#0000ff" class="">www.indiaig.in</span></a><span style="color:#0000ff" class=""> | </span><a href="http://registry.in/" target="_blank" class=""><span style="color:#0000ff" class="">registry.in</span></a><br class=""><br class=""><br class="">From: Mike Rodenbaugh <<a href="mailto:mike@rodenbaugh.com" target="_blank" class="">mike@rodenbaugh.com</a>><br class="">Sent: Thu, 3 May 2018 13:20:45 GMT+0530<br class="">To: <a href="mailto:Jorge.Cancio@bakom.admin.ch" target="_blank" class="">Jorge.Cancio@bakom.admin.ch</a><br class="">Cc: <a href="mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5@icann.org" target="_blank" class="">gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5@icann.org</a><br class="">Subject: Re: [Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5] Conference call: city names<br class=""> <div dir="ltr" class="">Governments also have infinite, obvious alternatives to <.city> TLDs, such as <.citygovernment>, <.citycouncil>, <.citytourism>, etc. Perhaps surprisingly, governments have managed to survive for the past 30 years even though they have not had the legal the right to "their" <<a href="http://city.com/" target="_blank" class="">city.com</a>> or even <city.ccTLD> second level domain names. They still have no such legal right at any level of the DNS. <span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:small;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial;float:none;display:inline" class="">Some governments' fantasy to own such rights is just that, fantasy. <span class=""> </span></span><div class=""> </div>
<div class="">To be sure, ICANN is not the proper body to grant governments such a right. But unfortunately, ICANN went far too far in the last round kowtowing to governments, and requiring the "non-objection" letter. That led to outright extortion by such well known geographic areas as SPA and BAR, among others, who had nothing more that a fantasy to control TLD rights to that name, plus ICANN's ill-advised, non-community-consensus requirement of the non-objection letter. As I recall (and I could be wrong and will eat my shoe), that was an ICANN Staff implementation gift, not part of the consensus policy passed by GNSO and the Board. Even if it was, it was ill-advised then, and should be eliminated for future rounds.</div>
<div class=""> </div>
<div class="">Country codes have been given special status in the DNS with ccTLDs and correspondent restrictions at the second level of the New gTLDs. That was an original gift to national governments, extended stupidly to the second level by ICANN in the last round, solely to appease government obstructionists in that last round. Subsidiary governments need to get over this; they don't have further rights to "their" name in the DNS. Period.</div>
<div class=""> </div>
<div class="">Paris, France has no greater rights to .PARIS than Paris, Texas. Or Paris Hilton. Period. But I would love to hear them fight out that issue. ICANN certainly should not have predetermined it in favor of France or Texas, to the detriment of Ms. Hilton (and so many other legitimate users of the word Paris). All three of those parties (at least) had equal rights to that TLD, and should have been put into a contention set to resolve it.</div>
<div class=""> </div>
<div class="">In substantial part, governments continue to rehash arguments made by IGOs in the various IGO Names policy discussions. Those IGOs get nowhere with the broader GNSO community because they only have fantasy rights to "their" names (in many cases) and acronyms (in almost all cases). So they scream to the Board and have delayed finality in those discussions for half a decade already. But the GNSO is never going to agree with them, and the GNSO has primary TLD policy responsibility under the Bylaws, not the GAC. Eventually, the Board must side with the GNSO, though they will put that off forever if they can, as they have done with IGO Names issues.</div>
<div class=""> </div>
<div class="">This GNSO group ought not be considering government pressure or fantasy rights. If the Board wants to do so, that is their prerogative. We need to develop policy in the real world, where governments coexist with businesses and other users of "their" names. They have done so for 30 years. I am confident in stating that not a single government has fallen, nor even been harmed, by the ability of absolutely anyone to register "their" name at the second level or at the top level. Until any such harm is shown, why are we even discussing this? What problem are we trying to solve, exactly?</div>
<div class=""> </div>
<div class=""> </div></div>
<div class="gmail_extra"> <div class=""><div class="m_2690420761501562026gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr" class=""><div style="font-family:arial;font-size:small" class="">Mike Rodenbaugh</div>
<div style="font-family:arial;font-size:small" class="">RODENBAUGH LAW</div>
<div style="font-family:arial;font-size:small" class="">tel/fax: <a href="http://%C2%A0+1.415.738.8087" target="_blank" class=""> +1.415.738.8087</a></div>
<div style="font-family:arial;font-size:small" class=""><a href="http://rodenbaugh.com/" target="_blank" class="">http://rodenbaugh.com</a> </div></div></div></div>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, May 2, 2018 at 11:28 PM, <span dir="ltr" class=""><<a href="mailto:Jorge.Cancio@bakom.admin.ch" target="_blank" class="">Jorge.Cancio@bakom.admin.ch</a>></span> wrote:
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div lang="DE-CH" link="blue" vlink="purple" class=""><div class="m_2690420761501562026m_8744128871848550892WordSection1"><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d" class="">Dear all</span></p><div class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d" class=""> </span><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d" class="">The fundamental flaw with such an approach is that it forgets that TLDs are unique. There can be only one TLD with a given city name. there can be only one delegation of such a string.</span></p><div class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d" class=""> </span><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d" class="">City governments have political, social, historical, economic and legal responsibilities over their cities, and have (at least in Switzerland and other countries) rights on the names of their cities. There might be several cities with the same name, but under the 2012 AGB you had to obtain the non-objection from all of them if that was the case.</span></p><div class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d" class=""> </span><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d" class="">As for brands there may be unlimited numbers of business names and trademarks that use a given city name, usually as part of their names (e.g. City “insurances”, City “salami”, City “whatever”…) and with figurative elements beyond the name as such (the color, the font, symbols, etc.). For instance in Switzerland you are not allowed to register a city name as such as a business name – because this would mean that a private business is monopolizing that geographic name. </span></p><div class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d" class=""> </span><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d" class="">Hence the crux, resolved in 2012 by the non-objection letter, was that several interests (public interests of a wide spectrum represented by the cities, community interests and multiple commercial interests in the form of brands) may converge on one string, one city name, one TLD. </span></p><div class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d" class=""> </span><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d" class="">The non-objection letter was and is in our view a good way to get the more specific interests backing one application to a table with those who represent the corresponding city (and its public policy interests), in order to try to arrive at a mutually acceptable solution… </span></p><div class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d" class=""> </span><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d" class="">Best regards</span></p><div class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d" class=""> </span><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d" class="">Jorge </span></p><div class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d" class=""> </span><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p class="MsoNormal"><b class=""><span lang="DE" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif" class="">Von:</span></b><span lang="DE" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif" class=""> Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 [mailto:<a href="mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5-" target="_blank" class="">gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5-</a><a href="mailto:bounces@icann.org" target="_blank" class="">bo<wbr class="">unces@icann.org</a>] <b class="">Im Auftrag von </b>Greg Shatan<br class=""><b class="">Gesendet:</b> Donnerstag, 3. Mai 2018 06:27<br class=""><b class="">An:</b> Marita Moll <<a href="mailto:mmoll@ca.inter.net" target="_blank" class="">mmoll@ca.inter.net</a>><br class=""><b class="">Cc:</b> Icann Gnso Newgtld Wg Wt5 <<a href="mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5@icann.org" target="_blank" class="">gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5@icann.org</a><wbr class="">><br class=""><b class="">Betreff:</b> Re: [Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5] Conference call: city names</span></p><div class=""> <br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div>
<div class=""><div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif" class="">We need to distinguish between two major groups of potential use cases that arise when there is an application for a string that (among other things) is a geographic term:</span></p></div>
<div class=""><div class=""><span style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif" class=""> </span><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div></div>
<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif" class="">1. <u class="">The Geo Case</u>: The case where a new gTLD applicant want to operate the gTLD as a "geographic" TLD (e.g., .berlin, .nyc, .africa)</span></p></div>
<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif" class="">2. <u class="">The Non-Geo Case</u>: The case where a new gTLD wants to operate the gTLD as something other than a geographic TLD -- a .brand, a generic gTLD, a restricted gTLD (e.g., .tata, .spa, .amazon, .patagonia)</span></p></div>
<div class=""><div class=""><span style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif" class=""> </span><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div></div>
<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif" class="">For the Geo Case, it may be that there are few instances where support/non-objection letters caused problems in the 2012 round. One "problem" instance is .africa. One would have to look at the universe of cases to determine whether all the rest worked well or not.</span></p></div>
<div class=""><div class=""><span style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif" class=""> </span><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div></div>
<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif" class="">For the Non-Geo Case, it is clear that there were multiple instances where support/non-objection letters or similar exercises of power did cause problems. We can start with all four of the examples I've cited above. I would be curious to know if there were Non-Geo Cases that didn't have problems.</span></p></div>
<div class=""><div class=""><span style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif" class=""> </span><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div></div>
<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif" class="">I think we have to consider these use cases separately. The considerations that apply when a TLD will be operated as a geo TLD (e.g., Roma for Romans) do not apply when the TLD will be operated for other purposes (e.g., .sandwich for a food-related TLD -- Sandwich, MA was incorporated in 1639 and named after Sandwich, England, which is obviously older). Blending them together just obscures the issues.</span></p></div>
<div class=""><div class=""><span style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif" class=""> </span><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div></div>
<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif" class="">Greg</span></p></div>
<div class=""><div class=""><span style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif" class=""> </span><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div></div>
<div class=""><div class=""><span style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif" class=""> </span><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div></div></div>
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<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal">On Wed, May 2, 2018 at 12:30 PM, Marita Moll <<a href="mailto:mmoll@ca.inter.net" target="_blank" class="">mmoll@ca.inter.net</a>> wrote:</p>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm" class=""><div class=""><p class="">Yes, cities can have long history in older cultures -- wars were fought and people died over them.</p><div class=""> <br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p class="">In Canada, municipal governments are subdivisions of their province. While they have autonomy on most decisions, all by-laws passed are subject to change by the provincial government at any time. So cities exist at the pleasure of the provincial governments.</p><div class=""> <br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p class="">Leaves one to wonder if the province could deny the city the right to it's TLD.<span class="m_2690420761501562026m_8744128871848550892m-6787174668758540933moz-smiley-s2">:-(</span> This is a pretty slippery slope......</p><div class=""><span class="m_2690420761501562026m_8744128871848550892hoenzb"><span style="color:#888888" class=""> </span></span><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p class=""><span style="color:#888888" class="">Marita</span></p>
<div class=""><div class=""><div class=""> <br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div>
<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal">On 5/2/2018 11:17 AM, Yrjö Länsipuro wrote:</p></div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt" class=""><div id="m_2690420761501562026m_8744128871848550892m_-6787174668758540933divtagdefaultwrapper" class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;" class=""><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Dear all,</span></div><p style="margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt" class=""><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""> </span></p><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;" class=""><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Cities have been founded, incorporated and given various privileges - including their names - in the course of history by kings and emperors and other assorted authorities, and in my non-lawyer´s mind, documents attesting to those acts, scribbled on parchment or whatever, are the legal basis. More important, from end-users´ point of view, is the political ownership felt by the citizens.</span></div><p style="margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt" class=""><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""> </span></p><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;" class=""><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">For reference, attached please find an excerpt of the founding document of my home city Tampere/Tammerfors in 1779, signed by king Gustaf III.</span></div><p style="margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt" class=""><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""> </span></p><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;" class=""><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Best,</span></div><p style="margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt" class=""><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""> </span></p><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;" class=""><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Yrjö</span></div><p style="margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt" class=""><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""> </span></p><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;" class=""><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span id="cid:1.1525334571@web.rediffmail.com"><image001.png></span></span></div><p style="margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt" class=""><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""> </span></p><p style="margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt" class=""><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""> </span></p><div style="margin-bottom: 12pt;" class=""><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""> </span><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div>
<div class=""><div align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:center"><hr align="center" size="2" width="98%" class=""></div>
<div id="m_2690420761501562026m_8744128871848550892m_-6787174668758540933divRplyFwdMsg" class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><b class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""> Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 <gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5-bounces@<a href="http://icann.org/" target="_blank" class="">i<wbr class="">cann.org</a>> on behalf of Alexander Schubert <<a href="mailto:alexander@schubert.berlin" class="">alexander@schubert.berlin</a>><br class=""><b class="">Sent:</b> Wednesday, May 2, 2018 5:16 PM<br class=""><b class="">To:</b> <a href="mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5@icann.org" target="_blank" class="">gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5@icann.org</a><br class=""><b class="">Subject:</b> Re: [Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5] Conference call: city names</span><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""> </span></p>
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<div class=""><div class=""><p class="m_2690420761501562026m_8744128871848550892m-6787174668758540933xmsonormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Dear Greg,</span></p><div class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""> </span><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p class="m_2690420761501562026m_8744128871848550892m-6787174668758540933xmsonormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">You write:<br class=""> </span><b class=""><i class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f4e79" class="">“…..but a ‘first right’ based on a geographic name is troublesome on several levels. But one fundamental question jumps out -- what right is this first right based on?”</span></i></b><br class=""><br class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">If we talk about sizeable (or otherwise “important”) cities:</span></p><p class="m_2690420761501562026m_8744128871848550892m-6787174668758540933xmsonormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Nobody has a “first right” obviously. Why should anybody. But if a string is (should be) poised to serve as identifier for a sizeable amount of people (e.g. larger cities) – I think we do not have to search for “international law”; it should be self-evident that such an infrastructure resource like a city-gTLD is NOT assigned lightly to “some entity” – but that the representatives of the city are looped in. There is morality and a “sense of common good” OUTSIDE of established law. At least in Good Old Europe. </span></p><div class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""> </span><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p class="m_2690420761501562026m_8744128871848550892m-6787174668758540933xmsonormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">But I completely agree with you if we talk about “minor” geographical entities – such as a small stream or a hill. Or a tiny dwelling somewhere in the nowhere. Especially if there is an entity that is MUCH better known to the public (e.g. a well-known brand vs. a small mountain) or if it is identical to a generic term: “.new” and the New River.<br class=""><br class="">The big question is: How do we policy the line that separates the entities that deserve “protection” from the rest? A repository? Lists of any sort? Population size? Or maybe a panel that decides case by case (caution: Beauty contest alarm)? But having no protections at all is not going to work. To LOWER the already low bar is bonkers in my mind. I wish GAC would pay more attention – there are forces trying to take away DNS infrastructure from The People.<br class=""><br class=""><br class="">Thanks,</span></p><div class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""> </span><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p class="m_2690420761501562026m_8744128871848550892m-6787174668758540933xmsonormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Alexander.berlin</span><br class=""><br class=""><br class=""> </p><div class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""> </span><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""> </span><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p class="m_2690420761501562026m_8744128871848550892m-6787174668758540933xmsonormal"><b class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""> Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 [mailto:<a href="mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5-" target="_blank" class="">gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5-</a><a href="mailto:bounces@icann.org" target="_blank" class="">bo<wbr class="">unces@icann.org</a>] <b class="">On Behalf Of </b>Greg Shatan<br class=""><b class="">Sent:</b> Wednesday, May 02, 2018 7:42 AM<br class=""><b class="">To:</b> David Cake <<a href="mailto:dave@davecake.net" target="_blank" class="">dave@davecake.net</a>><br class=""><b class="">Cc:</b> leonard obonyo via Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 <<a href="mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5@icann.org" class="">gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5@icann.org</a><wbr class="">><br class=""><b class="">Subject:</b> Re: [Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5] Conference call: city names</span></p><div class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""> </span><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div>
<div class=""><div class=""><p class="m_2690420761501562026m_8744128871848550892m-6787174668758540933xmsonormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family: Verdana, sans-serif;" class="">I find myself generally in agreement with Liz Williams. There are more nuances to unpack than I have time for, but a "first right" based on a geographic name is troublesome on several levels. But one fundamental question jumps out -- what right is this first right based on? Is there a legal basis for this? (Jorge tells us that his government would make a decision "based on law", so it would be useful to know what law we're talking about.) Requiring a "letter of support or non-objection" is also troublesome and not just for the reasons Liz mentions. (I hope we do not have to pore through each of the letters of support/non-objection from the first round to highlight the problems they cause, but if we are going to, this should be a job for the WG as a whole, not an assignment for Liz.) I recognize that, as Jorge say, it "works well for governments." Well, of course it does! It completely favors governments, and was imposed by governments (i.e., the GAC). The problem is that it doesn't work well for anyone else, and it is not well-grounded in the rule of law (unless we are thinking of something akin to the <i class="">droit de seigneur</i>, or perhaps the Divine Right of Kings).</span></p></div>
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<div class=""><p class="m_2690420761501562026m_8744128871848550892m-6787174668758540933xmsonormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family: Verdana, sans-serif;" class="">I don't know if I'll be able to be on any part of the call starting shortly, since it is running from 1-2:30 am my time, and I don't do well on 4 hours of sleep.... If am not, please accept my apologies.</span></p></div>
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<div class=""><p class="m_2690420761501562026m_8744128871848550892m-6787174668758540933xmsonormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family: Verdana, sans-serif;" class="">Greg</span></p></div>
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<div class=""><p class="m_2690420761501562026m_8744128871848550892m-6787174668758540933xmsonormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">On Mon, Apr 30, 2018 at 11:48 PM, David Cake <<a href="mailto:dave@davecake.net" target="_blank" class="">dave@davecake.net</a>> wrote:</span></p>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5.0pt" class=""><div class=""><p class="m_2690420761501562026m_8744128871848550892m-6787174668758540933xmsonormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Perth is not even unique within Australia, there is a small town in Tasmania. But the point about ambiguity remaining even if we restrict it to concepts like ‘capital’ is a very good one. </span></p>
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<div class=""><p class="m_2690420761501562026m_8744128871848550892m-6787174668758540933xmsonormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">David (resident of the Western Australian Perth)</span></p>
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<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt" class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><p class="m_2690420761501562026m_8744128871848550892m-6787174668758540933xmsonormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">On 30 Apr 2018, at 1:18 pm, Liz Williams <<a href="mailto:liz.williams@auda.org.au" target="_blank" class="">liz.williams@auda.org.au</a>> wrote:</span></p></div><div class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""> </span><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div></div></div>
<div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><p class="m_2690420761501562026m_8744128871848550892m-6787174668758540933xmsonormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Hello everyone </span></p>
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<div class=""><p class="m_2690420761501562026m_8744128871848550892m-6787174668758540933xmsonormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">I wanted to start a new thread of conversation about city names ahead of our upcoming conference call. We are being encouraged by our co-chairs to think about city names as TLDs. The first point is, perhaps, to recognise the “success” of some previous city TLDs including Berlin, Paris, NYC and so on. Those applications went through very specific requirements for evaluation and, now, hopefully serve the requirements of local communities. We should hope that, in any new round, the experiences of those cities will ease the way for future applications because we have learnt something about how and why applicants apply for place names (and I use the word place deliberately) as top level domain labels.</span></p></div>
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<div class=""><p class="m_2690420761501562026m_8744128871848550892m-6787174668758540933xmsonormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">For our next round of policy recommendations I wanted to use an example which I think highlights the difficulties we face if we are prescriptive and limited in our analysis.</span></p></div>
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<div class=""><p class="m_2690420761501562026m_8744128871848550892m-6787174668758540933xmsonormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Most of us know that Perth is the capital city of Western Australia. It is not the capital city of Australia as Canberra has that honour. Relying on a “is the word a capital city” question is fraught with difficulty. It is difficult because Perth, Scotland, has at a bare minimum had city status since the 12th century, far longer than Perth, Australia which also has an indigenous place name, its colonial name and a migrant demographic where the largest majority of Perth residents come from England. Things are complicated by the existence of Perth in Canada which, in its own right, has some features of a capital and, at the very least, some important historic linkages.</span></p></div>
<div class=""><div class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""> </span><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div></div>
<div class=""><p class="m_2690420761501562026m_8744128871848550892m-6787174668758540933xmsonormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">And then we turn to the generic words which Jon Nevett highlighted in a previous post (Bath, Save, New) which are also place names.</span></p></div>
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<div class=""><p class="m_2690420761501562026m_8744128871848550892m-6787174668758540933xmsonormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">That leads us to what can we usefully and objectively recommend as treatment of other names which are also linked to places and how those could be treated as top level domains. As a starting point, my recommendation would be that we don’t have any special treatment for place names as TLDs and that applicants for those names would be evaluated against other business and technical criteria just like another application. However, we might want to think about better ways of handling an objection. Those objections, from whatever quarter, need to be treated in exactly the same way. I don’t recommend “letters of support or non-objection”. They are too subjective, fraught with movable political nuance and, in some cases, deeply sensitive geo-political facts (using Jerusalem as the example).</span></p></div>
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<div class=""><p class="m_2690420761501562026m_8744128871848550892m-6787174668758540933xmsonormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">I look forward to hearing the views of others.</span></p></div>
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<div class=""><p class="m_2690420761501562026m_8744128871848550892m-6787174668758540933xmsonormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Liz</span></p></div>
<div class=""><div class=""><p class="m_2690420761501562026m_8744128871848550892m-6787174668758540933xmsonormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Avenir, serif;" class="">….<br class="">Dr Liz Williams | International Affairs<br class="">.au Domain Administration Ltd<br class="">M: +61 436 020 595 | +44 7824 877757<br class="">E: <a href="mailto:liz.williams@auda.org.au" target="_blank" class="">liz.williams@auda.org.au</a> <a href="http://www.auda.org.au/" target="_blank" class="">ww<wbr class="">w.auda.org.au</a><br class=""> <br class="">Important Notice<br class="">This email may contain information which is confidential and/or subject to legal privilege, and is intended for the use of the named addressee only. If you are not the intended recipient, you must not use, disclose or copy any part of this email. If you have received this email by mistake, please notify the sender and delete this message immediately.</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""> </span></p></div><div class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""> </span><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div></div></div></div></div><p class="m_2690420761501562026m_8744128871848550892m-6787174668758540933xmsonormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">______________________________<wbr class="">_________________<br class="">Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 mailing list<br class=""><a href="mailto:Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5@icann.org" target="_blank" class="">Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5@icann.org</a><br class=""><a href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5" target="_blank" class="">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/l<wbr class="">istinfo/gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5</a></span></p></div></blockquote></div><div class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""> </span><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div></div></div><p class="m_2690420761501562026m_8744128871848550892m-6787174668758540933xmsonormal"><br class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">______________________________<wbr class="">_________________<br class="">Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 mailing list<br class=""><a href="mailto:Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5@icann.org" target="_blank" class="">Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5@icann.org</a><br class=""><a href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5" target="_blank" class="">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/l<wbr class="">istinfo/gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5</a></span></p></blockquote></div><div class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""> </span><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div></div></div></div></div></div><div style="margin-bottom: 12pt;" class=""> <br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div>
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