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<p>Greg</p>
<p>Very good mail and back to substance!</p>
<p><span style="text-decoration: underline;"><em>my reactions online below</em></span></p>
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<div class="pre" style="margin: 0; padding: 0; font-family: monospace">Carlos Raúl Gutiérrez<br /> </div>
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<p>El 2018-05-02 22:26, Greg Shatan escribió:</p>
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<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family: verdana,sans-serif;">We need to distinguish between two major groups of potential use cases that arise when there is an application for a string that (among other things) is a geographic term:</div>
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<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family: verdana,sans-serif;">1. <u>The Geo Case</u>: The case where a new gTLD applicant want to operate the gTLD as a "geographic" TLD (e.g., .berlin, .nyc, .africa)</div>
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<div class="gmail_default"><em style="font-family: verdana, sans-serif; text-decoration: underline;">A revised evaluation set of rules, including policy based restrictions or PICs in terms of its </em><span style="font-family: verdana, sans-serif;"><em><u>intense</u></em></span><em style="font-family: verdana, sans-serif; text-decoration: underline;"> use, should apply in subsequent rounds</em></div>
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<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family: verdana,sans-serif;">2. <u>The Non-Geo Case</u>: The case where a new gTLD wants to operate the gTLD as something other than a geographic TLD -- a .brand, a generic gTLD, a restricted gTLD (e.g., .tata, .spa, .amazon, .patagonia)</div>
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<div class="gmail_default"><em style="font-family: verdana, sans-serif; text-decoration: underline;">If you don't have a very </em><span style="font-family: verdana, sans-serif;"><em><u>strong</u></em></span><em style="font-family: verdana, sans-serif; text-decoration: underline;"> trademark protection </em><span style="font-family: verdana, sans-serif;"><em><u>the</u></em></span><em style="font-family: verdana, sans-serif; text-decoration: underline;"> geo-area of your name and got a letter of support for your </em><span style="font-family: verdana, sans-serif;"><em><u>application</u></em></span><em style="font-family: verdana, sans-serif; text-decoration: underline;">, if you don't belong to an internationally recognized D.O.C., if WIPO </em><span style="font-family: verdana, sans-serif;"><em><u>doesn't give you anything like a letter of </u></em></span><span style="font-family: verdana, sans-serif;"><u><em>support, ==> </em></u>try to get your application money back as soon as you get an early warning, like Patagonia did. For good reason!</span></div>
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<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family: verdana,sans-serif;">For the Geo Case, it may be that there are few instances where support/non-objection letters caused problems in the 2012 round. One "problem" instance is .africa. One would have to look at the universe of cases to determine whether all the rest worked well or not.</div>
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<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family: verdana,sans-serif;">For the Non-Geo Case, it is clear that there were multiple instances where support/non-objection letters or similar exercises of power did cause problems. We can start with all four of the examples I've cited above. I would be curious to know if there were Non-Geo Cases that didn't have problems.</div>
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<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family: verdana,sans-serif;"><span style="text-decoration: underline;"><em>Patgonia had no problem to get its money back after the initial early warning</em></span></div>
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<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family: verdana,sans-serif;">I think we have to consider these use cases separately. </div>
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<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family: verdana,sans-serif;"><span style="text-decoration: underline;"><em>Agree</em></span></div>
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<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family: verdana,sans-serif;">The considerations that apply when a TLD will be operated as a geo TLD (e.g., Roma for Romans) do not apply when the TLD will be operated for other purposes (e.g., .sandwich for a food-related TLD -- Sandwich, MA was incorporated in 1639 and named after Sandwich, England, which is obviously older). </div>
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<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family: verdana,sans-serif;">Blending them together just obscures the issues.</div>
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<div class="gmail_default"><span style="text-decoration: underline;"><em>Don't agree. We have blended together all AGB applications and now are looking at certain relevant categories to filter out issues. It has been my repeated view, that the best way to keep clarity in this </em></span><span style="font-family: verdana, sans-serif;"><u><em>discussion, is to keep track on how "restrictive" the use of the delegated new gTLDs are. On the one extreme, the most restrictive use of new gTLDs have been the brands. More than extracting a monopoly rent, the have become exclusive beachfront property in the domain name </em></u><u><em>space where nobody else can walk in. I personally think that brand TLDs should go somewhere else, like a one stop office in WIPOs cellar, and get their TLDs. On the other hand some new gTLDs have no restrictions at all, and the price proves it, like .xyz. Instead of blending I have suggested an evaluation continuum from "high to low" (intended or not) use restrictions. </em></u></span></div>
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<div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, May 2, 2018 at 12:30 PM, Marita Moll <span><<a href="mailto:mmoll@ca.inter.net">mmoll@ca.inter.net</a>></span> wrote:<br />
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<p>Yes, cities can have long history in older cultures -- wars were fought and people died over them.</p>
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<p>In Canada, municipal governments are subdivisions of their province. While they have autonomy on most decisions, all by-laws passed are subject to change by the provincial government at any time. So cities exist at the pleasure of the provincial governments. </p>
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<p>Leaves one to wonder if the province could deny the city the right to it's TLD.<span class="m_-6787174668758540933moz-smiley-s2"><span>:-(</span></span> This is a pretty slippery slope......<span class="HOEnZb"><span style="color: #888888;"><br /> </span></span></p>
<span class="HOEnZb"><span class="HOEnZb"><span style="color: #888888;"> <span style="display: inline!important; float: none; background-color: transparent; color: #222222; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 13.93px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: 22.28px; text-align: left; text-decoration: none; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;"><br /> </span></span></span></span>
<p>Marita</p>
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<div class="m_-6787174668758540933moz-cite-prefix">On 5/2/2018 11:17 AM, Yrjö Länsipuro wrote:</div>
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<p style="margin-top: 0; margin-bottom: 0;">Dear all,</p>
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<p style="margin-top: 0; margin-bottom: 0;">Cities have been founded, incorporated and given various privileges - including their names - in the course of history by kings and emperors and other assorted authorities, and in my non-lawyer´s mind, documents attesting to those acts, scribbled on parchment or whatever, are the legal basis. More important, from end-users´ point of view, is the political ownership felt by the citizens.</p>
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<p style="margin-top: 0; margin-bottom: 0;">For reference, attached please find an excerpt of the founding document of my home city Tampere/Tammerfors in 1779, signed by king Gustaf III.</p>
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<p style="margin-top: 0; margin-bottom: 0;">Best,</p>
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<p style="margin-top: 0; margin-bottom: 0;">Yrjö</p>
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<div id="m_-6787174668758540933divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: #000000; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><strong>From:</strong> Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 <a class="m_-6787174668758540933moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5-bounces@icann.org"><gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5-bounces@<wbr />icann.org></a> on behalf of Alexander Schubert <a class="m_-6787174668758540933moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:alexander@schubert.berlin"><alexander@schubert.berlin></a><br /> <strong>Sent:</strong> Wednesday, May 2, 2018 5:16 PM<br /> <strong>To:</strong> <a class="m_-6787174668758540933moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5@icann.org">gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5@icann.org</a><br /> <strong>Subject:</strong> Re: [Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5] Conference call: city names</span>
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<p class="m_-6787174668758540933x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt; font-family: 'Calibri',sans-serif;">Dear Greg,</span></p>
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<p class="m_-6787174668758540933x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt; font-family: 'Calibri',sans-serif;">You write: <br /> <strong><em><span style="color: #1f4e79;">".....but a 'first right' based on a geographic name is troublesome on several levels. But one fundamental question jumps out -- what right is this first right based on?"</span></em></strong><br /> <br /> If we talk about sizeable (or otherwise "important") cities:</span></p>
<p class="m_-6787174668758540933x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt; font-family: 'Calibri',sans-serif;">Nobody has a "first right" obviously. Why should anybody. But if a string is (should be) poised to serve as identifier for a sizeable amount of people (e.g. larger cities) – I think we do not have to search for "international law"; it should be self-evident that such an infrastructure resource like a city-gTLD is NOT assigned lightly to "some entity" – but that the representatives of the city are looped in. There is morality and a "sense of common good" OUTSIDE of established law. At least in Good Old Europe. </span></p>
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<p class="m_-6787174668758540933x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt; font-family: 'Calibri',sans-serif;">But I completely agree with you if we talk about "minor" geographical entities – such as a small stream or a hill. Or a tiny dwelling somewhere in the nowhere. Especially if there is an entity that is MUCH better known to the public (e.g. a well-known brand vs. a small mountain) or if it is identical to a generic term: ".new" and the New River.<br /> <br /> The big question is: How do we policy the line that separates the entities that deserve "protection" from the rest? A repository? Lists of any sort? Population size? Or maybe a panel that decides case by case (caution: Beauty contest alarm)? But having no protections at all is not going to work. To LOWER the already low bar is bonkers in my mind. I wish GAC would pay more attention – there are forces trying to take away DNS infrastructure from The People.<br /> <br /> <br /> Thanks,</span></p>
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<p class="m_-6787174668758540933x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt; font-family: 'Calibri',sans-serif;">Alexander.berlin<br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> </span></p>
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<p class="m_-6787174668758540933x_MsoNormal"><strong><span style="font-size: 11.0pt; font-family: 'Calibri',sans-serif;">From:</span></strong><span style="font-size: 11.0pt; font-family: 'Calibri',sans-serif;"> Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 [<a class="m_-6787174668758540933moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5-bounces@icann.org">mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5-<wbr />bounces@icann.org</a>] <strong>On Behalf Of </strong>Greg Shatan<br /> <strong>Sent:</strong> Wednesday, May 02, 2018 7:42 AM<br /> <strong>To:</strong> David Cake <a class="m_-6787174668758540933moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:dave@davecake.net"><dave@davecake.net></a><br /> <strong>Cc:</strong> leonard obonyo via Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 <a class="m_-6787174668758540933moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5@icann.org"><gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5@icann.<wbr />org></a><br /> <strong>Subject:</strong> Re: [Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5] Conference call: city names</span></p>
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<p class="m_-6787174668758540933x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana',sans-serif;">I find myself generally in agreement with Liz Williams. There are more nuances to unpack than I have time for, but a "first right" based on a geographic name is troublesome on several levels. But one fundamental question jumps out -- what right is this first right based on? Is there a legal basis for this? (Jorge tells us that his government would make a decision "based on law", so it would be useful to know what law we're talking about.) Requiring a "letter of support or non-objection" is also troublesome and not just for the reasons Liz mentions. (I hope we do not have to pore through each of the letters of support/non-objection from the first round to highlight the problems they cause, but if we are going to, this should be a job for the WG as a whole, not an assignment for Liz.) I recognize that, as Jorge say, it "works well for governments." Well, of course it does! It completely favors governments, and was imposed by governments (i.e., the GAC). The problem is that it doesn't work well for anyone else, and it is not well-grounded in the rule of law (unless we are thinking of something akin to the <em>droit de seigneur</em>, or perhaps the Divine Right of Kings).</span></p>
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<p class="m_-6787174668758540933x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana',sans-serif;">I don't know if I'll be able to be on any part of the call starting shortly, since it is running from 1-2:30 am my time, and I don't do well on 4 hours of sleep.... If am not, please accept my apologies.</span></p>
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<p class="m_-6787174668758540933x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana',sans-serif;">Greg</span></p>
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<p class="m_-6787174668758540933x_MsoNormal">On Mon, Apr 30, 2018 at 11:48 PM, David Cake <<a id="m_-6787174668758540933LPlnk141392" class="m_-6787174668758540933OWAAutoLink" href="mailto:dave@davecake.net">dave@davecake.net</a>> wrote:</p>
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<p class="m_-6787174668758540933x_MsoNormal">Perth is not even unique within Australia, there is a small town in Tasmania. But the point about ambiguity remaining even if we restrict it to concepts like 'capital' is a very good one. </p>
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<p class="m_-6787174668758540933x_MsoNormal">David (resident of the Western Australian Perth)</p>
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<p class="m_-6787174668758540933x_MsoNormal">On 30 Apr 2018, at 1:18 pm, Liz Williams <<a id="m_-6787174668758540933LPlnk197662" class="m_-6787174668758540933OWAAutoLink" href="mailto:liz.williams@auda.org.au">liz.williams@auda.org.au</a>> wrote:</p>
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<p class="m_-6787174668758540933x_MsoNormal">Hello everyone </p>
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<p class="m_-6787174668758540933x_MsoNormal">I wanted to start a new thread of conversation about city names ahead of our upcoming conference call. We are being encouraged by our co-chairs to think about city names as TLDs. The first point is, perhaps, to recognise the "success" of some previous city TLDs including Berlin, Paris, NYC and so on. Those applications went through very specific requirements for evaluation and, now, hopefully serve the requirements of local communities. We should hope that, in any new round, the experiences of those cities will ease the way for future applications because we have learnt something about how and why applicants apply for place names (and I use the word place deliberately) as top level domain labels.</p>
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<p class="m_-6787174668758540933x_MsoNormal">For our next round of policy recommendations I wanted to use an example which I think highlights the difficulties we face if we are prescriptive and limited in our analysis.</p>
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<p class="m_-6787174668758540933x_MsoNormal">Most of us know that Perth is the capital city of Western Australia. It is not the capital city of Australia as Canberra has that honour. Relying on a "is the word a capital city" question is fraught with difficulty. It is difficult because Perth, Scotland, has at a bare minimum had city status since the 12th century, far longer than Perth, Australia which also has an indigenous place name, its colonial name and a migrant demographic where the largest majority of Perth residents come from England. Things are complicated by the existence of Perth in Canada which, in its own right, has some features of a capital and, at the very least, some important historic linkages.</p>
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<p class="m_-6787174668758540933x_MsoNormal">And then we turn to the generic words which Jon Nevett highlighted in a previous post (Bath, Save, New) which are also place names.</p>
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<p class="m_-6787174668758540933x_MsoNormal">That leads us to what can we usefully and objectively recommend as treatment of other names which are also linked to places and how those could be treated as top level domains. As a starting point, my recommendation would be that we don't have any special treatment for place names as TLDs and that applicants for those names would be evaluated against other business and technical criteria just like another application. However, we might want to think about better ways of handling an objection. Those objections, from whatever quarter, need to be treated in exactly the same way. I don't recommend "letters of support or non-objection". They are too subjective, fraught with movable political nuance and, in some cases, deeply sensitive geo-political facts (using Jerusalem as the example).</p>
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<p class="m_-6787174668758540933x_MsoNormal">I look forward to hearing the views of others.</p>
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<p class="m_-6787174668758540933x_MsoNormal">Liz</p>
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<p class="m_-6787174668758540933x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 9.0pt; font-family: Avenir;">....<br /> Dr Liz Williams | International Affairs<br /> .au Domain Administration Ltd<br /> M: +61 436 020 595 | +44 7824 877757<br /> E: <a id="m_-6787174668758540933LPlnk203012" class="m_-6787174668758540933OWAAutoLink" href="mailto:liz.williams@auda.org.au">liz.williams@auda.org.au</a> <a id="m_-6787174668758540933LPlnk692936" class="m_-6787174668758540933OWAAutoLink" href="http://www.auda.org.au/" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">ww<wbr />w.auda.org.au</a><br /> <br /> Important Notice<br /> This email may contain information which is confidential and/or subject to legal privilege, and is intended for the use of the named addressee only. If you are not the intended recipient, you must not use, disclose or copy any part of this email. If you have received this email by mistake, please notify the sender and delete this message immediately.</span></p>
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<p class="m_-6787174668758540933x_MsoNormal"><br /> ______________________________<wbr />_________________<br /> Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 mailing list<br /> <a id="m_-6787174668758540933LPlnk31651" class="m_-6787174668758540933OWAAutoLink" href="mailto:Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5@icann.org">Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5@icann.org</a><br /> <a id="m_-6787174668758540933LPlnk261601" class="m_-6787174668758540933OWAAutoLink" href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/<wbr />listinfo/gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5</a></p>
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<pre>______________________________<wbr />_________________
Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 mailing list
<a class="m_-6787174668758540933moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5@icann.org">Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5@icann.org</a>
<a class="m_-6787174668758540933moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/<wbr />listinfo/gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5</a></pre>
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<br />______________________________<wbr />_________________<br /> Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 mailing list<br /> <a href="mailto:Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5@icann.org">Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5@icann.org</a><br /> <a href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/<wbr />listinfo/gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5</a></blockquote>
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<div class="pre" style="margin: 0; padding: 0; font-family: monospace">_______________________________________________<br /> Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 mailing list<br /> <a href="mailto:Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5@icann.org">Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5@icann.org</a><br /> <a href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5</a></div>
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