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Jorge, I support your view and comments below.
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Best regards / Med vennlig hilsen <br class="">
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Ann-Cathrin Marcussen<br class="">
Head of Legal<br class="">
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UNINETT Norid AS<br class="">
7465 Trondheim<br class="">
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Mobil +47 920 14 282<br class="">
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<div class="">6. jun. 2018 kl. 10:29 skrev <a href="mailto:Jorge.Cancio@bakom.admin.ch" class="">
Jorge.Cancio@bakom.admin.ch</a>:</div>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">The advisory board could of course be subject to confidentiality rules if the confidentiality of the string is an issue for the applicant. Professional
and early advice on whether a string has a geographic meaning and which the relevant public authorities are is IMO something quite valuable for a prospective applicant. Leaving that to the evaluation phase (when substantial investments have been made and the
danger of an objection from a non-contacted public authority is high) is really something I would call “ill-advised”…<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">Best<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">Jorge<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div>
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<b class=""><span lang="DE" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Von:</span></b><span lang="DE" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5
[<a href="mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5-bounces@icann.org" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5-bounces@icann.org</a>]<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b class="">Im Auftrag von<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b><a href="mailto:Jorge.Cancio@bakom.admin.ch" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">Jorge.Cancio@bakom.admin.ch</a><br class="">
<b class="">Gesendet:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Mittwoch, 6. Juni 2018 08:37<br class="">
<b class="">An:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:liz.williams@auda.org.au" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">liz.williams@auda.org.au</a>;<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:lists@christopherwilkinson.eu" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">lists@christopherwilkinson.eu</a><br class="">
<b class="">Cc:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5@icann.org" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5@icann.org</a><br class="">
<b class="">Betreff:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5] Qualifying the threshold for requirement of letters of non-objection!<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">Clear guidance would be for such applicants to seek early contact with relevant public authorities and their non-objection. The potential advisory
panel on geonames could help them in such endeavours, as previously mentioned.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">Kind regards<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">Jorge<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div>
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<b class=""><span lang="DE" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Von:</span></b><span lang="DE" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5
[<a href="mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5-bounces@icann.org" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5-bounces@icann.org</a>]<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b class="">Im Auftrag von<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Liz
Williams<br class="">
<b class="">Gesendet:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Dienstag, 5. Juni 2018 23:30<br class="">
<b class="">An:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:lists@christopherwilkinson.eu" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">lists@christopherwilkinson.eu</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Wilkinson
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<b class="">Cc:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5@icann.org" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5@icann.org</a><br class="">
<b class="">Betreff:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5] Qualifying the threshold for requirement of letters of non-objection!<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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Thanks Christopher<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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I am trying to keep the conversation open and ideas flowing for as long as well possibly can to think about instances of where our (well-intentioned) policy recommendations may have unintended implementation consequences. We have seen that in the case of Patagonia
and we could easily see it again if we continued the theme of outdoor brands like Kathmandu and North Face.<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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We may decide that we have resolved this particular brand/geographic term conundrum; we may decide that risks of dual/competing applications are low. I think in both instances it is high risk for applicants and even higher risk for evaluators unless we have
clear guidance. If that takes longer to work through at this stage I think it’s time well spent.<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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Liz<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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<span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Avenir, serif;" class="">….<br class="">
Dr Liz Williams | International Affairs<br class="">
.au Domain Administration Ltd<br class="">
M: +61 436 020 595 | +44 7824 877757<br class="">
E: <a href="mailto:liz.williams@auda.org.au" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">liz.williams@auda.org.au</a> <a href="http://www.auda.org.au/" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">www.auda.org.au</a><br class="">
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On 6 Jun 2018, at 5:44 am,<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:lists@christopherwilkinson.eu" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">lists@christopherwilkinson.eu</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Wilkinson
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Dear Liz: I expect that most applications for geo-names will be made by the country/region/city/community concerned who already hold prior customary use rights (or even legal rights) to the geo-name in question. If they do not apply now, their future interests
must be protected. ICANN should respect that as a matter of policy.<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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There is - fortunately - already plenty of space on the Internet for freedom of speech.<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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But the idea that ICANN would be complicit in approving contested geo-names as TLDs, only in the name of freedom of speech - which BTW could cut both ways - is most unlikely to fly anywhere soon.<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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In any case, the priority for freedom of speech should accrue to the users of the geo-name in question, not to the applicant.<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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A little realism, please …<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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Christopher<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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El 5 de junio de 2018 a las 20:26 Marita Moll <<a href="mailto:mmoll@ca.inter.net" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">mmoll@ca.inter.net</a>> escribió:<o:p class=""></o:p></p>
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Here is an example I just ran into. The city of Meissen in Germany -- pop. approx. 30,000 -- well known for it's porcelain industry which has been part of this city since the 1700s.<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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town url is indirect (thank goodness for wikipedia which takes you there) =<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://www.stadt-meissen.de/" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">http://www.stadt-meissen.de/</a><o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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The url<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://meissen.de/" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">meissen.de</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>leads you to<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://meissen.com/" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">meissen.com</a>.
That's the pottery factory.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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Even the Meissen summer school of Internet governance (euroSSIG) has the pottery site posted instead of the town site -- accidently, I'm sure. This sort of thing is confusing to endusers and we should seek to avoid it or at least clearly outline it.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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I assume that the pottery factory got the top level because no letter of support was requested or required. Perhaps this is a common tradeoff in Germany as I think I have seen it before. Does it make sense to reserve double barrelled tags like meissen-city
for this purpose? Maybe it does.<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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If such examples could be deconstructed, perhaps it would lead us to some defined strategies on resolving such conflicts.<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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Marita <o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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On 6/4/2018 5:09 PM, Liz Williams wrote:<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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Hello Kavouss<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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I am sorry I wasn’t clear. What I meant was that it is entirely possible for an application to be submitted that relates to a geographic location that is contested between one or more parties and requiring government support would be an unreasonable burden
on a legitimate applicant. I can think of many locations that could be interested in applying for a new TLD but am reluctant to choose examples because that may be inflammatory. <o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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The central point is that “requiring” government support for an application for a new TLD which is a geographic identifier, as opposed to having that support as only one element of evaluation criteria could be very unfair for applicants. The freedom of speech/international
rights experts will be much better placed to make these arguments based on international norms (for example, from the United Nations).<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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I am urging us to think of different policy principles that could be applied here…we are very close to that if we stick with “objective, transparent, known in advance” and so on. What we most certainly don’t want to do is create implementation systems that
could put ICANN evaluators in the middle of picking winners in deeply political discussions which have nothing to do with the management of the domain name system.<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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Liz<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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<span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Avenir, serif;" class="">….<br class="">
Dr Liz Williams | International Affairs<br class="">
.au Domain Administration Ltd<br class="">
M: +61 436 020 595 | +44 7824 877757<br class="">
E: <a href="mailto:liz.williams@auda.org.au" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">liz.williams@auda.org.au</a> <a href="http://www.auda.org.au/" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">www.auda.org.au</a><br class="">
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received this email by mistake, please notify the sender and delete this message immediately.</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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On 4 Jun 2018, at 9:09 pm, Kavouss Arasteh <<a href="mailto:kavouss.arasteh@gmail.com" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">kavouss.arasteh@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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Liz<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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I do not really understand the objectives of your text below<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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C) legitimate dissent where a geographic location is contested (in all forms of geographic and cultural contest) but where it is entirely feasible for a legitimate application to be submitted for which freedom of expression is paramount. Mandating support
or “non-objection” is a guarantee of failure where the applicant may have different views to the government of the day.<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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Kavouss<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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On Sat, Jun 2, 2018 at 9:08 AM, Liz Williams <<a href="mailto:liz.williams@auda.org.au" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">liz.williams@auda.org.au</a>> wrote:<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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The challenge with these kind of cut off numbers/percentages/qualifiers is that they don’t recognise the realities of<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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A) numerous examples of where this just doesn’t work when generic words clash with trademarks which clash with geographic terms where no one right is more valid than any other.<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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B) competing applications (from the Perths or Londons or Rocks) of the world which could be some of the largest cities in the world to the tiniest island towns that want to connect their unique identity to the global internet<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;" class="">
C) legitimate dissent where a geographic location is contested (in all forms of geographic and cultural contest) but where it is entirely feasible for a legitimate application to be submitted for which freedom of expression is paramount. Mandating support
or “non-objection” is a guarantee of failure where the applicant may have different views to the government of the day.<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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<o:p class=""> </o:p></div>
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We must think clearly about neutral measures for evaluators to measure applications…not coming up with select lists which we will, guaranteed, get wrong. <o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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Liz<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;" class="">
<span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Avenir, serif;" class="">….<br class="">
Dr Liz Williams | International Affairs<br class="">
.au Domain Administration Ltd<br class="">
M: +61 436 020 595 | +44 7824 877757<br class="">
E: <a href="mailto:liz.williams@auda.org.au" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">liz.williams@auda.org.au</a> <a href="http://www.auda.org.au/" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">www.auda.org.au</a><br class="">
<br class="">
Important Notice<br class="">
This email may contain information which is confidential and/or subject to legal privilege, and is intended for the use of the named addressee only. If you are not the intended recipient, you must not use, disclose or copy any part of this email. If you have
received this email by mistake, please notify the sender and delete this message immediately.</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 12pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">
<o:p class=""> </o:p></p>
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On 2 Jun 2018, at 12:15 pm, Justine Chew <<a href="mailto:justine.chew@gmail.com" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">justine.chew@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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<o:p class=""> </o:p></div>
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Alexander,<br class="">
<br class="">
I very much like the idea of a percentage of citizens of a nation as consideration for qualifying select list of cities in order to not exclude smaller cities from protective measures enjoyed by capital cities and ISO 3166 Alpha-2 subnational regions. Percentages
would work much better than absolute values.<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
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<br clear="all" class="">
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<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;" class="">
Thank<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;" class="">
you for suggesting this.<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;" class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
Justine <br class="">
-----<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;" class="">
<o:p class=""> </o:p></div>
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On 1 June 2018 at 23:28, Alexander Schubert <<a href="mailto:alexander@schubert.berlin" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">alexander@schubert.berlin</a>> wrote:<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
<blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class="">
<div class="">
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<p class="ox-19384c0762-msonormal" style="margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">
<span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">Greg,</span><o:p class=""></o:p></p>
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<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;" class="">
<span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<p class="ox-19384c0762-msonormal" style="margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">
<span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">So in other words folks who are trying to preserve identity rights for city inhabitants are “GEO Supremacists” in your eyes? I assume you just want to showcase
your extreme displeasure with the suggested protective measures. Just search “USA supremacy” in<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://google.com/" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">google.com</a>;
and you know why it hurts to be called a “supremacist”. Maybe you weren’t aware how insulting the term is.</span><o:p class=""></o:p></p>
<p class="ox-19384c0762-msonormal" style="margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">
<span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><br class="">
But trying to stay on the topic matter:</span><o:p class=""></o:p></p>
<p class="ox-19384c0762-m-7320750146751012538gmail-m1467855337704819413msolistparagraph" style="margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">
<span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Symbol; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">·</span><span style="font-size: 7pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""> </span><span style="font-size: 7pt; font-family: Symbol; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><strong class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">I
think we have reached general agreement that the public representatives for inhabitants of certain geo-entities deserve the unilateral right to vet an identical gTLD application.</span></strong><o:p class=""></o:p></p>
<p class="ox-19384c0762-m-7320750146751012538gmail-m1467855337704819413msolistparagraph" style="margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 72pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">
<span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Courier;New", serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">o</span><span style="font-size: 7pt; font-family: "Courier;New", serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">And
in the languages that matters! See Moscow: Even when only a smaller percentage of Muscovites speaks English – the gTLD is bilingual; one gTLD in English and an IDN version in Russian. Just the local language isn’t enough in a globalized world. I am a good
example in this case: For my Russian traveling I use schubert.moscow – and I wouldn’t want an IDN version. I hope it’s not too “supremacist” when a metropole desires their well-known global brand in the English language as well (being a capital or not – Moscow
was covered as it is capital).</span><o:p class=""></o:p></p>
<p class="ox-19384c0762-m-7320750146751012538gmail-m1467855337704819413msolistparagraph" style="margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">
<span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Symbol; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">·</span><span style="font-size: 7pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""> </span><span style="font-size: 7pt; font-family: Symbol; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><strong class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">Examples
of the above mentioned agreed on protective measures are capital cities or ISO 3166 Alpha-2 subnational regions.</span></strong><o:p class=""></o:p></p>
<p class="ox-19384c0762-m-7320750146751012538gmail-m1467855337704819413msolistparagraph" style="margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">
<span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Symbol; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">·</span><span style="font-size: 7pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""> </span><span style="font-size: 7pt; font-family: Symbol; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><strong class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">My
suggestion is that we extend the same rights to cities once these meet a certain threshold.</span></strong><o:p class=""></o:p></p>
<p class="ox-19384c0762-m-7320750146751012538gmail-m1467855337704819413msolistparagraph" style="margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 72pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">
<span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Courier;New", serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">o</span><span style="font-size: 7pt; font-family: "Courier;New", serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">You
suggest that this should be a “select list”. So we have to define the threshold that defines the “list”. This could be an absolute number of inhabitants – or a percentage of citizens – or the lower of both values. Example: the city needs to have at minimum
250,000 inhabitants – or at least 2.5% of the nation’s population. The exact measures need to be explored. This way in countries with less than 10 Million people (and that is WELL more than half of all countries in the world) slightly smaller cities are protected
as well. Latvia has 2 Million people – 2.5% equals 50,000! That protects 4 cities aside of the capital.</span><o:p class=""></o:p></p>
<p class="ox-19384c0762-m-7320750146751012538gmail-m1467855337704819413msolistparagraph" style="margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">
<span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Symbol; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">·</span><span style="font-size: 7pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""> </span><span style="font-size: 7pt; font-family: Symbol; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><strong class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">If
a city doesn’t make the “select list” the 2012 AGB rules apply: government support only required if geo-use intent.</span></strong><o:p class=""></o:p></p>
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<span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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<span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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<p class="ox-19384c0762-msonormal" style="margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; margin-bottom: 12pt;">
<span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">Thanks,<br class="">
<br class="">
Alexander</span><o:p class=""></o:p></p>
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<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;" class="">
<span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
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<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;" class="">
<span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<p class="ox-19384c0762-msonormal" style="margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">
<strong class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">From:</span></strong><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 [mailto:<a href="mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5-bounces@icann.org" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5-bounces@icann.org</a>]<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><strong class=""><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">On
Behalf Of<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></strong>Greg Shatan<br class="">
<strong class=""><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Sent:</span></strong><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Freitag, 1. Juni 2018 06:44<br class="">
<strong class=""><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">To:</span></strong><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Marita Moll <<a href="mailto:mmoll@ca.inter.net" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">mmoll@ca.inter.net</a>></span><o:p class=""></o:p></p>
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<br class="">
<strong class="">Cc:</strong><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5@icann.org" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5@icann.org</a><br class="">
<strong class="">Subject:</strong><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5] Qualifying the threshold for requirement of letters of non-objection!<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;" class="">
<o:p class=""> </o:p></div>
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<p class="ox-19384c0762-msonormal" style="margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">
I’m in favor of TLDs being applied for and used as city TLDs by those cities or on their behalf.<o:p class=""></o:p></p>
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<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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<p class="ox-19384c0762-msonormal" style="margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">
I’m open to the idea that a very small and select list of cities would have veto/blocking/consent/non-objection privileges (practically, they’re all pretty much the same) over any use of a string identical to their name (in the language of that city), even
for non-geo uses.<o:p class=""></o:p></p>
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<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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<p class="ox-19384c0762-msonormal" style="margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">
I’m open to the idea of a larger group of cities that would have those privileges, but only in the context of use in connection with that city.<o:p class=""></o:p></p>
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<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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<p class="ox-19384c0762-msonormal" style="margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">
I’m not in favor of a general rule based on the geosupremacist idea that a geo use is superior to all other uses. I’m really not in favor of a general rule that non-use/non-application for geo purposes should get in the way of an application for another use
of that same string.<o:p class=""></o:p></p>
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<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;" class="">
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<p class="ox-19384c0762-msonormal" style="margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">
Strings have multiple meanings and uses. There is no general rule of a hierarchy of rights among legitimate uses of that string. There is certainly no hierarchy that puts geo uses at the top of the list every time.<o:p class=""></o:p></p>
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<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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<p class="ox-19384c0762-msonormal" style="margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">
Greg<o:p class=""></o:p></p>
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<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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<p class="ox-19384c0762-msonormal" style="margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">
On Thu, May 31, 2018 at 7:54 PM Marita Moll <<a href="mailto:mmoll@ca.inter.net" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">mmoll@ca.inter.net</a>> wrote:<o:p class=""></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class="">
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;" class="">
I know I am a bit late in tuning into these thoughts by Alexander. But it's never too late to say "well said."<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;" class="">
<span style="font-family: Times, serif;" class="">I am reminded that, in it's earliest days, the Internet itself was considered a public resource. Even the slightest bit of advertising was shunned! We have come a long way from there. But we still have a chance
to retain some of that original spirit.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>The city domain name space could be seen and managed as a resource for public benefit as Alexander suggests. <o:p class=""></o:p></div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;" class="">
And that would have to be by design."It doesn't happen by accident."<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
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<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;" class="">
<span style="font-family: Times, serif;" class="">Marita Moll</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
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<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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<p class="ox-19384c0762-msonormal" style="margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">
On 5/22/2018 11:34 AM, Alexander Schubert wrote:<o:p class=""></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class="">
<div class="">
<p class="ox-19384c0762-msonormal" style="margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">
<a name="m_-7320750146751012538_m_146785533770481" class=""></a><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">Dear Liz,</span><o:p class=""></o:p></p>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;" class="">
<span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<p class="ox-19384c0762-msonormal" style="margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">
<span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">I am a domain broker and “domainer” since 21 years and have consequently analyzed the market from “inside” – ESPECIALLY when it comes to newly minted gTLDs. I
have participated in all new gTLD introductions in the past, from .info, over .us (liberation in 2001), .eu and so on. And there is a FUNDAMENTAL difference between a historical grown name space like “.com” or a ccTLD and new name spaces:<br class="">
<br class="">
If 10% of names in .com or .de are speculative registrations - .com will survive just fine. No problem. But:<br class="">
A new gTLD is like a new “land” – best to be compared with for example Dubai. Imagine the rulers of Dubai had sold building lots for “cost value”; say for US $2,000 per lot. They would probably have sold high volumes – but unlikely that ANYTHING would have
really being developed there. The “dirt” would have remained what it is: “dirt”. Speculators would have speculated.<br class="">
But wisely the Dubai rulers demanded from all land buyers to DEVELOP their land – and build something; “something” that by now is the sparkling community we all know: DUBAI!<br class="">
<br class="">
In Chicago there were several blocks of sub premium land. Some people bought houses cheaply – and did NOTHING. But others developed the land around – and made the area “valuable”. Guess how the people who bought cheap and then waited until the area became valuable
were called? No. Not “clever investors”. They were labeled “free-riders”. They bought cheap and did nothing – waited for the land to “mature” – then sold for prices that were high due to the work of others. That’s what “domain investors” do: they buy the premium
land – let it sit for 5 to 10 years – THEN SELL for 1,000 times the “investment”. “Clever”? Nope: Mismanagement, free-Riding and damages the name-space: nothing is being developed – no “Sparkling Dubai” – all remains dirt. Legal – but doesn’t really advance
the experience of the Internet user.<br class="">
<br class="">
It’s all a question of public benefit philosophy – or the absence of any.<br class="">
<br class="">
Regarding “local business”:<br class="">
Yes, of course one could argue that a domain tires.denver owned by speculator and operating a<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://tires.com/" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">tires.com</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Affiliate
website isn’t too bad. After all people in Denver can buy tires on the website, and the domain owner “invested funds”, the registry got some money in the premium auction (e.g. US $2k – even if the domain is worth US $50k), and: “all OK, no?”. Free market,
and let the registry do what they want.<br class="">
My view on this: A city gTLD is a VALUABLE RESCOURCE, that should aid the city community. It should be MANAGED – and ideally in a way that impacting domains like business verticals are supporting LOCAL business. The U.S. is CHOKING on a gigantic import-export
deficit: stuff is being bought ABROAD instead nationally. The same is true for local communities: The Internet serves as a Trojan horse to shift local business outside the city. Tires being bought at a<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://tires.com/" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">tires.com</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Affiliate
site displayed at tires.denver shift revenue OUTSIDE Denver. Apartments leased via an Affiliate site at apartments.denver destroy local real estate businesses. This list goes on and on and on. The huge advantage of a locally MANAGED city gTLD is to ADVANCE
LOCAL BUSINESS! Hence “.denver”! If you wanted to buy tires SOMEWHERE – then do it. But the very idea of a .city gTLD is that it promotes LOCAL BUSINESSES! And that doesn’t happen by “accident” – it has to be promoted and MANAGED. And the ones who do that
best are the local business constituencies – business associations, chambers, etc.!</span><o:p class=""></o:p></p>
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<span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">Imagine somebody bought a wood (large property full of trees) for cheap money – and would harvest ALL trees, and sell them at once: Yes, they would make a profit.
Is it good for the land? Nope – the land will erode. Hence laws and rules regulate wood harvesting. It’s the same with city gTLDs. Selling all the premium domains in SEDO auctions to “investors” makes money – and drives registration volume: but it deprives
the namespace of creating “beacon” domains that serve as brand ambassadors for the city gTLD.<br class="">
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Took me a few years to develop all these thoughts. I am thinking about community name spaces since 2004. I love earning money – but I love even more when I serve people while doing so. Not all life is about making cash fast.<br class="">
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So when a city Government is being presented with a city constituencies funded, owned, managed and marketed “non-profit” effort to advance the city – and on the other hand with an operator that merely “makes the namespace available”: let the cities representatives
decide. I agree with you: ICANN should NOT “tell applicants where to base their business” or how to operate it. It’s fine when there are offshore based portfolio applicants with large amounts of VC money running around and trying to convince cities to operate
a valuable and important city infrastructure. But allow the city to decide whom they pick – don’t let VC money “brute force” ownership of city namespaces.<br class="">
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Btw: Sadly the “managing” part wasn’t well developed in the first batch of city gTLDs. I think this will dramatically change in the next round.</span><o:p class=""></o:p></p>
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<span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><br class="">
Thanks,<br class="">
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Alexander</span><o:p class=""></o:p></p>
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<strong class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">From:</span></strong><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Liz Williams [<a href="mailto:liz.williams@auda.org.au" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">mailto:liz.williams@auda.org.au</a>]<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
<strong class=""><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Sent:</span></strong><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Dienstag, 22. Mai 2018 06:39<br class="">
<strong class=""><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">To:</span></strong><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Alexander Schubert<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:alexander@schubert.berlin" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=""><alexander@schubert.berlin></a><br class="">
<strong class=""><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Cc:</span></strong><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5@icann.org" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5@icann.org</a><br class="">
<strong class=""><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Subject:</span></strong><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5] Qualifying the threshold for requirement of letters of non-objection!</span><o:p class=""></o:p></p>
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Hello Alexander<o:p class=""></o:p></p>
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I wanted to explore a little further your assertion that an applicant for a geo-TLD should be locally based. Our freedom of expression/civil liberties colleagues will have a better handle on those imperatives but I wonder why one would expect an applicant
to be located in the community when, for example, a geographic domain name label may be a means of expressing dissent or difference from the current government? It is not a pre-requisite for ICANN to be telling applicants who meet the evaluation criteria
that they should be “local”. We also know that the Internet enables us to be wherever we want to be to do business…that is one of the most amazing characteristics of the Internet.<o:p class=""></o:p></p>
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It is also not desirable for ICANN to tell applicants where they should locate their businesses. Organisations legitimately and perfectly legally choose the registered location for their business based on, for example, tax treatment, ease of doing business,
rule of law, incentives for entrepreneurs, bandwidth and timezone. Those are all good things we wouldn’t want to interfere with.<o:p class=""></o:p></p>
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I doubt that it is supportable to have a prohibition on entities applying for several geographic labels. What if it were a good thing that an expert registry operator was able to provide services to communities in unique and attractive ways? I would have
thought that is a nice niche business that could benefit communities in good ways? <o:p class=""></o:p></p>
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And finally, I don’t understand the problem with domain investors. Those domain name owners are legitimate purchasers of domain names at the second level. Many registry operators are propped up by those investors and the secondary domain name market is active
and mature which is another indicator of competition and consumer choice. I think we can all agree that mis-using a domain name, whoever owns it, isn’t a desirable market outcome but there are measures in place to deal with that.<o:p class=""></o:p></p>
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Looking forward to the views of others.<o:p class=""></o:p></p>
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Liz<o:p class=""></o:p></p>
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<span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Avenir, serif;" class="">….<br class="">
Dr Liz Williams | International Affairs<br class="">
.au Domain Administration Ltd<br class="">
M: +61 436 020 595 | +44 7824 877757<br class="">
E: <a href="mailto:liz.williams@auda.org.au" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">liz.williams@auda.org.au</a> <a href="http://www.auda.org.au/" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">www.auda.org.au</a><br class="">
<br class="">
Important Notice<br class="">
This email may contain information which is confidential and/or subject to legal privilege, and is intended for the use of the named addressee only. If you are not the intended recipient, you must not use, disclose or copy any part of this email. If you have
received this email by mistake, please notify the sender and delete this message immediately.</span><o:p class=""></o:p></p>
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On 20 May 2018, at 9:40 pm, Alexander Schubert <<a href="mailto:alexander@schubert.berlin" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">alexander@schubert.berlin</a>> wrote:<o:p class=""></o:p></p>
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<span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Christopher,<br class="">
<br class="">
I completely understand (and support) your notion, that an applicant for a geo-gTLD should be locally rooted; ideally geo-community funded, managed and marketed. And I am completely in agreement with you that we should create policy that prevents that a few
big players are blanketing the geo-gTLD space with hundreds of applications each a copy & paste job of the other, with absolutely zero knowledge of the specific city community and no intent to further THEIR specific agenda – instead trying to make money FAST.<br class="">
<br class="">
And obviously letters of non-objection will help a lot – because by 2020 the mayors of a major cities WILL know a bit about the pitfalls of the management for city gTLDs (consultants will bring them up to speed and help them to navigate the jungle of examining
the applicants funding, marketing, community-engagement and rooting, management, etc).</span><o:p class=""></o:p></p>
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<span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">You suggest a measure to reduce mass land-grab: “Prohibition to apply for several geo-gTLDs for the same entity”. I was a “domainer” (shame on me) since 1997, and then started to create
community based gTLDs in 2004 (.berlin was a community owned, funded, managed and designated gTLD application, as was the .gay applicant I founded). I personally know quite a bunch of “domainers turned portfolio applicants”. And I know their abilities, their
endurance. They will simply have a legal entity in each city – intelligently managed through notaries acting on their behalf. I am happy to help looking into policy that is designed to stop geo-name land grab; but the measure proposed by you is probably easily
to be gamed.<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
Thanks,<br class="">
<br class="">
Alexander<br class="">
<br class="">
</span><o:p class=""></o:p></p>
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<span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5
mailing list</span><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class="">
<a href="mailto:Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5@icann.org" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5@icann.org</a><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class="">
<a href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5</a></div>
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