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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>Dear Maureen,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>You are addressing the problematic of smaller nations – and their even smaller cities and regions.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><br>Let’s look at the different harm scenarios by size of geo entity<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoListParagraph style='text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>1.<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span></span><![endif]><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>If a geo entity is “sizeable” (and industrialized – meaning people need domains) then the string is a target for portfolio applicants. E.g. cities over 500,000 or 1 Million people in industrialized nations.<br>These strings are few in number – so there is no high risk that a “brand” would be interested. The risk are portfolio applicants trying to make quick bucks.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoListParagraph style='text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>2.<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span></span><![endif]><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>If a geo entity is middle sized (say between 50,000 and 500,000 people) then it’s not anymore really interesting for portfolio applicants (too few potential registrants to create high enough ROI)<br>But there is a much higher number of geo entities: more brands that might bear the same name<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoListParagraph style='text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>3.<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span></span><![endif]><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>If a geo entity is really smallish (below 50,000 people) they are completely safe from portfolio applicants in my mind. But in the same time I can’t really imagine many cases where community constituents would ever want to run the string as a gTLD! Too small a place, too few prospective registrants.<br>Hence even IF there was a brand that bears the same name: In case they would use the domain as brand gTLD; I don’t see harm in that. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>Obviously exceptions to these examples are always existing; “Aspen” in Colorado being one.<br><br>There is also a market mechanism that impacts small country communities: The ccTLD of a small country is usually not very crowded; I suspect your “.ck” will be almost empty. You STILL always find a “good” available domain. But in a country like Germany there are (and Germany is world champion in this) 17 Million .de ccTLD domains. People just can’t find ANY available domain anymore. In such a country obviously a city name based gTLD is attracting registrants much faster. But even in a 2 Million people country like Latvia: you always get some nice domain. Or you can buy one for small money. So in that respect: very small region or city based gTLDs might be snagged up by brands – but does that really hurt? Yes: the string is then unavailable for the constituents of the geo location – but nobody would ever have applied for the name to make available domains anyway. <br>Again: Some exceptions to that rule will exist. <br><br>There is a German word that is used in English as well: “Realpolitik”. I am such “Realist”. If we ask for too much in regard with protections of geo names – the outcome will be that the 2012 AGB provisions will not be changed; or rather stay in place. And then nobody is helped. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>Thanks,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>Alexander<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> Maureen Hilyard [mailto:maureen.hilyard@gmail.com] <br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, September 24, 2018 7:30 PM<br><b>To:</b> alexander@schubert.berlin<br><b>Cc:</b> Icann Gnso Newgtld Wg Wt5 <gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5@icann.org><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5] proposal for discussion to modify existing geo-category policy of when to require govt letters<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>Hi Alexander<o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>As well as, and sometimes despite, other arguments that have been discussed, I agree with your suggestion about the legitimate interest of the target community. While I represent a region which is still in the "underserved" category and live in a country of 15 thousand people (at the last census), our small community would also like to be notified seeking consent if a name of traditional or cultural significance was being proposed for any gtld purpose. Hypothetically, would our 15 thousand voices have the same affect for veto in the face of a business case that might be seen to benefit millions of others others outside of our realm? <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Maureen <o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>On Mon, Sep 24, 2018 at 2:03 AM, Alexander Schubert <<a href="mailto:alexander@schubert.berlin" target="_blank">alexander@schubert.berlin</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm'><p class=MsoNormal>Hi Marita,<br><br>"Dortmund" is a good example; albeit hypothetical: no such beer is existing.<br>But there is a "JEVER" beer - a brand that I have seen in many countries.<br>It's named after the city of Jever in northern Germany. <br><br> I really don't think that a (any) brand that is "free-riding" (legally,<br>though) on the positive image of a city community (built over centuries by<br>their constituents) should be allowed to take the city's identity in the DNS<br>"off market" - just to egoistically represent themselves. That doesn't "fly"<br>in Germany. Actually in most if not all of Europe that wouldn't fly. However<br>I think that especially for sizeable city entities such case would be rather<br>rare: The main risk is that portfolio applicants are raiding geo name land<br>globally, oblivious (unconcerned) of the target community's needs<br>(interests) but only yielding the short lived requirements of their VC<br>funders: making cash FAST! In a wood analogy that would be:<br>Portfolio applicant: cut all the wood, and sell it; never mind the resulting<br>erosion or lost living environment for the forests inhabitants.<br>City constituent owned, funded and policied applicant: MANAGE the usage of<br>the wood in a way that creates a balance for all involved parties and their<br>interests.<br><br>While we are elaborating about the narrative of "legitimate interest": <br><br>I think it leads us down a rabbit hole by judging the potential "legitimate<br>interest" of the applicant entity. In the end of the day it all boils down<br>to have policies and an active TLD management in place that meets the<br>legitimate interest of the TARGET COMMUNITY; and it is the obligation of the<br>applicant to meet those interests! This is not about the egoistic "interest"<br>of the applicant (e.g. the interest to make fast ROI for his investors).<br>Maybe I have different priorities than Robin - but for me THE PEOPLE come<br>first: not the "interest" of some applicant entity. A city name based gTLD<br>is a piece of city infrastructure. It has to be suitable for the city's<br>constituents. Their representatives (the city authority) is most likely best<br>suited to evaluate whether the legitimate interests of said city community<br>are being met.<br><br><span class=im>Alexander</span><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><span class=im>-----Original Message-----</span><br><span class=im>From: Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 [mailto:<a href="mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5-bounces@icann.org">gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5-bounces@icann.org</a>] On</span><o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Behalf Of Marita Moll<br>Sent: Monday, September 24, 2018 2:15 AM<br>To: <a href="mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5@icann.org">gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5@icann.org</a><br>Subject: Re: [Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5] proposal for discussion to modify<br>existing geo-category policy of when to require govt letters<br><br>Sorry Robin, I am trying to figure out what you mean in the following<br>sentence: "Again, it would still prevent TLDs that have no legitimate<br>interest in a geo-word from going forward, but it would allow for other<br>legitimate users to have an opportunity to register the TLD of a word that<br>falls into one of the existing geo-word categories as well."<br><br>Suppose the beer company Dortmund wants to register .dortmund (a city in<br>Germany) -- only to promote its brand. The beer does come from Dortmund so<br>there is a city connection. Would that be legitimate or not in your book?<br>What is "legitimate interest?" and "non-legitimate interest" and who<br>decides?<br><br>Thanks<br><br>Marita<br><br><br><br>On 9/23/2018 5:14 PM, Robin Gross wrote:<br>> I disagree, Jorge. We already have an intended use standard for<br>noncapital city names, so it is something that has already been part of the<br>existing policy with respect to some categories of geo-names. This proposal<br>just takes ICANN's existing policy for noncapital city names and applies it<br>to the other categories of geo-names that are in the guidebook. Again, it<br>would still prevent TLDs that have no legitimate interest in a geo-word from<br>going forward, but it would allow for other legitimate users to have an<br>opportunity to register the TLD of a word that falls into one of the<br>existing geo-word categories as well. Rather than take a "one side takes<br>all" approach as we currently have, which allows one interest to extract<br>"rents" or other concessions from anyone who also has a legitimate interest<br>in using that string, we could try to balance the legitimate interests in<br>order to be fair to all sides. It is worth considering if we are sincere<br>about finding a compromise.<br>><br>> Thanks,<br>> Robin<br>><br>>> On Sep 21, 2018, at 8:04 PM, <a href="mailto:Jorge.Cancio@bakom.admin.ch">Jorge.Cancio@bakom.admin.ch</a> wrote:<br>>><br>>> Dear all<br>>><br>>> "Intended use" is very far from representing a compromise proposal.<br>>><br>>> We have had the debate on this idea for more than a year, so it is of<br>little use and efficiency for us repeating arguments that are abundantly<br>reflected on the record, and, as I recall, in the working document.<br>>><br>>> Let's see what the public consultation brings on these questions.<br>>><br>>> best regards<br>>><br>>> Jorge<br>>><br>>> ps: I'll be on leave some days, so excuse me if I don't react for a<br>while.<br>>><br>>><br>>> ________________________________<br>>><br>>> Von: Robin Gross <<a href="mailto:robin@ipjustice.org">robin@ipjustice.org</a>><br>>> Datum: 21. September 2018 um 23:18:39 MESZ<br>>> An: Icann Gnso Newgtld Wg Wt5 <<a href="mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5@icann.org">gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5@icann.org</a>><br>>> Betreff: [Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5] proposal for discussion to modify existing<br>geo-category policy of when to require govt letters<br>>><br>>> Hello,<br>>><br>>> In follow-up to our WT5 meeting discussion earlier this week, I wanted to<br>provide a more precise proposal for an amendment to policy requiring a govt.<br>letter of support / non-objection from applicants of TLDs that are geo-words<br>other than capital city names.<br>>><br>>> The goal here is to target the harm to be prevented from a<br>misrepresentation that the TLD speaks for the local authority when it isn't<br>the case, while also allowing for other legitimate uses of a geo-word TLD to<br>go forward. So it is an attempt to balance two legitimate interests in a<br>way that can find room for preventing the bad acts, but allowing lawful TLD<br>uses to go forward. It is a proposal for compromise to find middle ground.<br>>><br>>> In short: applicants who intend to represent a connection to the<br>authority of a non-capital city or other geo-category from the guidebook<br>will need to provide a letter of support/non-objection as a means of<br>verifying that connection.<br>>><br>>> However, if the applicant does not intend to represent a connection to<br>the authority of the non-capital city or the other geo-categories from the<br>guidebook, protections will be enhanced by inserting contractual<br>requirements into the Registry Agreement that prevent the applicant from<br>misrepresenting their connection or association to the geo-word.<br>>><br>>> Putting aside capital cities, we will leave them as the policy currently<br>exists, we would ONLY require the govt. letter for the other geo-words IF<br>the use represents a connection to the authority. So that would apply to<br>non-capital city names and sub-national, unesco, etc. categories where govt.<br>letters are currently at issue.<br>>><br>>> More precisely worded proposal:<br>>> Applicants who intend to represent a connection the the authority of a<br>city, sub-national place, unesco region, or appearing on the "Composition of<br>macro geographical (continental) regions, geographical sub-regions, and<br>selected economic and other groupings" list will need to provide a letter of<br>support/non-objection.<br>>><br>>> However, if the applicant does not intend to represent a connection to<br>the authority of the geographic terms listed above, protections will instead<br>be achieved by inserting contractual requirements into the Registry<br>Agreement that prevent the applicant from misrepresenting their connection<br>or association to the geographic term.<br>>><br>>> I do invite comments, questions, and suggestions about this proposed<br>amendment to the existing policy for geo-categories. I don't claim this is<br>a perfect proposal, but discussion could possibly help lead us to a better<br>policy that attempts to balance differing legitimate interests in a more<br>nuanced way than what we've got now.<br>>><br>>> Thank you!<br>>> Robin<br>>> _______________________________________________<br>>> Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 mailing list<br>>> <a href="mailto:Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5@icann.org">Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5@icann.org</a><br>>> <a href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5" target="_blank">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5</a><br>>><br>> _______________________________________________<br>> Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 mailing list<br>> <a href="mailto:Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5@icann.org">Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5@icann.org</a><br>> <a href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5" target="_blank">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5</a><br><br>_______________________________________________<br>Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 mailing list<br><a href="mailto:Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5@icann.org">Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5@icann.org</a><br><a href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5" target="_blank">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5</a><br><br>_______________________________________________<br>Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 mailing list<br><a href="mailto:Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5@icann.org">Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5@icann.org</a><br><a href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5" target="_blank">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5</a><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></blockquote></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div></div></body></html>