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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Thanks Christopher. I enjoy reading your notes because your point of view is so very different from mine. But what you are suggesting has breathtaking free speech implications.
For example, you would not be allowed to apply for .wilkinson and use it for your family or family business without seeking permission from Wilkinson, Indiana – population 448 and maybe even Charlotte, North Carolina (there is a Wilkinson Boulevard in Charlotte).
Surely, that is no practical way to delegate TLDs (unless we are trying to establish a commercial environment in which ICANN gets a competitor that is not bogged down with such impediments to free speech and commerce.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Best,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Paul<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> lists@christopherwilkinson.eu Wilkinson <lists@christopherwilkinson.eu>
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, October 7, 2018 3:51 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Justine Chew <justine.chew@gmail.com>; Liz Williams <internet.governance@icloud.com>; McGrady, Paul D. <PMcGrady@winston.com><br>
<b>Cc:</b> gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5@icann.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5] proposal for discussion to modify existing geo-category policy of when to require govt letters<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p>Dear Paul McGrady:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>I think that the Internet is changing the balance of the argument and the characteristics of the exceptions.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Dual or multiple meanings that used to be innocuous in the past are likely to give rise to new risks in the future.<br>
Also, the existing cases of dual meanings are still actually a very small proportion of all geographical names, albeit among the better known ones (in English).<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Obviously, any well informed corporation or entrepreneur will by now have twigged that trying to label a product or a brand with a new geographical name will be unnecessarily risky.<br>
<br>
There is another aspect that bothers me. My understanding is that in certain jurisdictions, a domain name may be grounds for supporting an application for that name as a trademark. Should that practice ever be extended to TLDs and that TLDs were extended to
geographical names, I could foresee a host of objections! <o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Those risks would be largely removed if geographical TLDs were for geographical use and incorporated in the corresponding jurisdiction.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Regards<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Christopher Wilkinson<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">El 7 de octubre de 2018 a las 21:36 "McGrady, Paul D." <<a href="mailto:PMcGrady@winston.com">PMcGrady@winston.com</a>> escribió:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="ox-312f1e9fdc-msonormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Hi Justine,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="ox-312f1e9fdc-msonormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="ox-312f1e9fdc-msonormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Thank you for your note. Your comments on built on the assumption that if a word is also a geo term, that the geo term would always be the default primary meaning
of the word and that people would think of the geographic reference first. I don’t think such is the case and I have never seen any studies by linguists or other experts in language that would support that premise. And, I can easily think of examples where
such would not be the case, for example, Alcoa, Tennessee (what comes immediately to mind is the giant Aluminum company that built a plant there) and also Cadillac, Michigan (again, the famous car line comes first to mind). So, I think we have to be extra
careful not to assume that a term is a “geo term” first and foremost if it also happens to have a geographic reference. The geographic meaning may be less significant – depending on the strength of the other connotations. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="ox-312f1e9fdc-msonormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="ox-312f1e9fdc-msonormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Liz’s flat application structure is an interesting idea. I’d like to hear more about it from her and others on the list.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="ox-312f1e9fdc-msonormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="ox-312f1e9fdc-msonormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Best,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="ox-312f1e9fdc-msonormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Paul</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="ox-312f1e9fdc-msonormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="ox-312f1e9fdc-msonormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="ox-312f1e9fdc-msonormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="ox-312f1e9fdc-msonormal"><strong><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></strong><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 <<a href="mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5-bounces@icann.org">gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5-bounces@icann.org</a>>
<strong><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">On Behalf Of </span></strong>Justine Chew<br>
<strong><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Sent:</span></strong> Sunday, October 7, 2018 7:49 AM<br>
<strong><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">To:</span></strong> Liz Williams <<a href="mailto:internet.governance@icloud.com">internet.governance@icloud.com</a>><br>
<strong><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Cc:</span></strong> <a href="mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5@icann.org">
gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5@icann.org</a><br>
<strong><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Subject:</span></strong> Re: [Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5] proposal for discussion to modify existing geo-category policy of when to require govt letters</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="ox-312f1e9fdc-msonormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="ox-312f1e9fdc-msonormal">Hello again, Liz,<br>
<br>
Thank you for your reply. I too am looking forward to hearing the views of others.<br>
<br>
If "intended use" is done away with then naturally "geo use" (as you put it) becomes irrelevant. However, as your reply confirms, that isn't the issue which needs grappling.
<br>
<br>
A geographic name, however way that is established, is exactly that - a geographic name - and accordingly is one which recognizes a connection to a place and/or people of that place. And that is why I am keen to understand from others what role letters of support
or non-objection - or even other mechanism(s) - might play in light of such recognition.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<span class="ox-312f1e9fdc-gmaildefault">Cheers,</span><br>
<br>
Justine Chew <br>
-----<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="ox-312f1e9fdc-msonormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="ox-312f1e9fdc-msonormal">On Sun, 7 Oct 2018 at 20:18, Liz Williams <<a href="mailto:internet.governance@icloud.com">internet.governance@icloud.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="ox-312f1e9fdc-msonormal">Hello Justine<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="ox-312f1e9fdc-msonormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="ox-312f1e9fdc-msonormal">I am looking forward to hearing the views of others. However, I have never been a fan of letters of “non-objection” which are arbitrary, can be removed at will and do not give adequate protections for either an applicant
or the provider of a letter upon which an applicant may rely upon.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="ox-312f1e9fdc-msonormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="ox-312f1e9fdc-msonormal">It might be that we are able to come up with good reasons for letters of support. How those would be woven into an application process, the weight they have (or not!) during evaluation and then used in implementation remains
an open question. Is it pointless to require letters of support when they mean nothing in implementation?<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="ox-312f1e9fdc-msonormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="ox-312f1e9fdc-msonormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Avenir",serif;color:black">An observation would be that there is no reason to maintain a “geo” use distinction if “intended use” is void. That also means that, for example, the distinction
between “generics, brands, geo, communities” rapidly falls away. I think that is a good idea because we then avoid all kinds of “special treatment” exceptions to the rules which has caused plenty of (avoidable?) trouble.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="ox-312f1e9fdc-msonormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Avenir",serif;color:black"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="ox-312f1e9fdc-msonormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Avenir",serif;color:black">Liz<br>
….<br>
Dr Liz Williams | Internet Governance<br>
M: +44 7824 877757 :: +61 436 020 595</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="ox-312f1e9fdc-msonormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Avenir",serif;color:black">W:
<a href="https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.lizwilliams.net&data=02%7C01%7Cpmcgrady%40winston.com%7C9cef5411cd404116841b08d62c96a556%7C12a8aae45e2f4ad8adab9375a84aa3e5%7C0%7C0%7C636745422880233393&sdata=IKBTgXxYEarrnaknBV6nqpV%2F3OykutIBR0xmLbjttfU%3D&reserved=0" target="_blank">
www.lizwilliams.net</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="ox-312f1e9fdc-msonormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Avenir",serif;color:black">S: lizwilliams1963</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="ox-312f1e9fdc-msonormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Avenir",serif;color:black"> <br>
Important Notice<br>
This email may contain information which is confidential and/or subject to legal privilege, and is intended for the use of the named addressee only. If you are not the intended recipient, you must not use, disclose or copy any part of this email. If you have
received this email by mistake, please notify the sender and delete this message immediately.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="ox-312f1e9fdc-msonormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Avenir",serif;color:black"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="ox-312f1e9fdc-msonormal"><span style="color:black"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="ox-312f1e9fdc-msonormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="ox-312f1e9fdc-msonormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="ox-312f1e9fdc-msonormal">On 7 Oct 2018, at 1:08 pm, Justine Chew <<a href="mailto:justine.chew@gmail.com" target="_blank">justine.chew@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="ox-312f1e9fdc-msonormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="ox-312f1e9fdc-msonormal">Dear Liz,<br>
<br>
You have set out an interesting resulting path to the suggested abolishing of the "intended use" concept.<br>
<br>
Permit me to further inquire with the group as to the role of letters of support or non-objection under this scenario -- would letters be required in the event an applied-for string is geographic name by any category defined
<span class="ox-312f1e9fdc-gmaildefault">in </span>the AGB (as drafted) or as determined by a geonames panel or if an objection is filed raising a "geographic name conflict etc"? <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="ox-312f1e9fdc-msonormal"><br>
Justine Chew <br>
-----<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="ox-312f1e9fdc-msonormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="ox-312f1e9fdc-msonormal">On Sun, 7 Oct 2018 at 19:17, Liz Williams via Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 <<a href="mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5@icann.org" target="_blank">gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5@icann.org</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="ox-312f1e9fdc-msonormal">Hello everyone<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="ox-312f1e9fdc-msonormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="ox-312f1e9fdc-msonormal">I have been watching these ongoing discussions carefully. The title of the email thread doesn’t capture the essence of my email but I wanted to test a couple of other ideas.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="ox-312f1e9fdc-msonormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="ox-312f1e9fdc-msonormal">If there is consensus on “intended use being meaningless”and that “intended use” cannot be a gating factor for applicants to apply for TLDs then it means that “intended use” would <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="ox-312f1e9fdc-msonormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="ox-312f1e9fdc-msonormal">A) not be part of any application materials for evaluation purposes (for example, one could describe intended use as part of a business plan but it wouldn’t be used as a criteria against which an application is measured).
<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="ox-312f1e9fdc-msonormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="ox-312f1e9fdc-msonormal">B) if “intended use” was not part of the application evaluation process then it logically follows that there should not be negative scores from independent evaluators or other panellists about what the applicant wishes to
use the TLD for<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="ox-312f1e9fdc-msonormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="ox-312f1e9fdc-msonormal">C) it then follows that objections to any application on the basis of intended use would not be allowed?<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="ox-312f1e9fdc-msonormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="ox-312f1e9fdc-msonormal">This is quite a dramatic shift for us. If we had done things this way based on the 2007 policy and the 2012 AGB then it would have saved a lot of applicants who followed all the rules correctly a lot of heartache; it would
have prevented many independent and external evaluations and it would have dramatically reduced, perhaps, interventions by the ICANN Board.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="ox-312f1e9fdc-msonormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="ox-312f1e9fdc-msonormal">It opens the door for a fourth round of the expansion of the domain name system to be much clearer and less “interfering” in driving business plans of applicants. It minimises (perhaps to the point of irrelevance any community
priority evaluations?) and it makes for a much flatter application structure. For me, those are good outcomes but others will have different opinions which I think we should tease out.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="ox-312f1e9fdc-msonormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="ox-312f1e9fdc-msonormal">Very interested to hear other people’s views.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="ox-312f1e9fdc-msonormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="ox-312f1e9fdc-msonormal">Liz<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="ox-312f1e9fdc-msonormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="ox-312f1e9fdc-msonormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Avenir",serif">….<br>
Dr Liz Williams | Internet Governance<br>
M: +44 7824 877757 :: +61 436 020 595</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="ox-312f1e9fdc-msonormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Avenir",serif">W:
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www.lizwilliams.net</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="ox-312f1e9fdc-msonormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Avenir",serif">S: lizwilliams1963</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="ox-312f1e9fdc-msonormal">On 7 Oct 2018, at 10:49 am, Mazzone, Giacomo <<a href="mailto:mazzone@ebu.ch" target="_blank">mazzone@ebu.ch</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="ox-312f1e9fdc-msonormal">I TOTALLY AGREE AND SHARE WHAT JORGE SAID.<br>
"intended use" is meaningless, as we concluded after many rounds of discussion.<br>
Giacomo<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 [<a href="mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5-bounces@icann.org" target="_blank">mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5-bounces@icann.org</a>] On Behalf Of
<a href="mailto:Jorge.Cancio@bakom.admin.ch" target="_blank">Jorge.Cancio@bakom.admin.ch</a><br>
Sent: samedi 22 septembre 2018 05:05<br>
To: <a href="mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5@icann.org" target="_blank">gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5@icann.org</a><br>
Subject: Re: [Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5] proposal for discussion to modify existing geo-category policy of when to require govt letters<br>
<br>
Dear all<br>
<br>
"Intended use" is very far from representing a compromise proposal.<br>
<br>
We have had the debate on this idea for more than a year, so it is of little use and efficiency for us repeating arguments that are abundantly reflected on the record, and, as I recall, in the working document.<br>
<br>
Let's see what the public consultation brings on these questions.<br>
<br>
best regards<br>
<br>
Jorge<br>
<br>
ps: I'll be on leave some days, so excuse me if I don't react for a while.<br>
<br>
<br>
________________________________<br>
<br>
Von: Robin Gross <<a href="mailto:robin@ipjustice.org" target="_blank">robin@ipjustice.org</a>><br>
Datum: 21. September 2018 um 23:18:39 MESZ<br>
An: Icann Gnso Newgtld Wg Wt5 <<a href="mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5@icann.org" target="_blank">gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5@icann.org</a>><br>
Betreff: [Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5] proposal for discussion to modify existing geo-category policy of when to require govt letters<br>
<br>
Hello,<br>
<br>
In follow-up to our WT5 meeting discussion earlier this week, I wanted to provide a more precise proposal for an amendment to policy requiring a govt. letter of support / non-objection from applicants of TLDs that are geo-words other than capital city names.<br>
<br>
The goal here is to target the harm to be prevented from a misrepresentation that the TLD speaks for the local authority when it isn't the case, while also allowing for other legitimate uses of a geo-word TLD to go forward. So it is an attempt to balance two
legitimate interests in a way that can find room for preventing the bad acts, but allowing lawful TLD uses to go forward. It is a proposal for compromise to find middle ground.<br>
<br>
In short: applicants who intend to represent a connection to the authority of a non-capital city or other geo-category from the guidebook will need to provide a letter of support/non-objection as a means of verifying that connection.<br>
<br>
However, if the applicant does not intend to represent a connection to the authority of the non-capital city or the other geo-categories from the guidebook, protections will be enhanced by inserting contractual requirements into the Registry Agreement that
prevent the applicant from misrepresenting their connection or association to the geo-word.<br>
<br>
Putting aside capital cities, we will leave them as the policy currently exists, we would ONLY require the govt. letter for the other geo-words IF the use represents a connection to the authority. So that would apply to non-capital city names and sub-national,
unesco, etc. categories where govt. letters are currently at issue.<br>
<br>
More precisely worded proposal:<br>
Applicants who intend to represent a connection the the authority of a city, sub-national place, unesco region, or appearing on the "Composition of macro geographical (continental) regions, geographical sub-regions, and selected economic and other groupings"
list will need to provide a letter of support/non-objection.<br>
<br>
However, if the applicant does not intend to represent a connection to the authority of the geographic terms listed above, protections will instead be achieved by inserting contractual requirements into the Registry Agreement that prevent the applicant from
misrepresenting their connection or association to the geographic term.<br>
<br>
I do invite comments, questions, and suggestions about this proposed amendment to the existing policy for geo-categories. I don't claim this is a perfect proposal, but discussion could possibly help lead us to a better policy that attempts to balance differing
legitimate interests in a more nuanced way than what we've got now.<br>
<br>
Thank you!<br>
Robin<br>
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