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<p class="MsoNormal">With updated attendance<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">From: </span></b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"><gnso-newgtld-wg-bounces@icann.org> on behalf of Nathalie Peregrine <nathalie.peregrine@icann.org><br>
<b>Date: </b>Tuesday, August 29, 2017 at 10:12 AM<br>
<b>To: </b>"gnso-newgtld-wg@icann.org" <gnso-newgtld-wg@icann.org><br>
<b>Cc: </b>"gnso-secs@icann.org" <gnso-secs@icann.org><br>
<b>Subject: </b>[Gnso-newgtld-wg] Recordings, Attendance & AC Chat from New gTLD Subsequent Procedures WG call on Tuesday, 29 August 2017<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">Dear All,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span style="color:black">Please find the attendance of the call attached to this email and the MP3 recording below for the New gTLD Subsequent Procedures Working Group call held on Tuesday, 29 August 2017 at 03:00
UTC.</span><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><span style="color:black">Attendance of the calls is also posted on the agenda wiki page: <a href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__community.icann.org_x_egchB&d=DwMGaQ&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=PDd_FX3f4MVgkEIi9GHvVoUhbecsvLhgsyXrxgtbL10DTBs0i1jYiBM_uTSDzgqG&m=obbREXORBJPivVf5plDyNcYOvvW53lUwKnoVAkJwJ7A&s=yAYosNnJ6APsR6Jrrs0BPDse6Fe-J2L_bk75T2QeNw8&e=">https://community.icann.org/x/egchB[community.icann.org]</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p style="line-height:15.6pt"><b><span style="color:black">MP3: </span></b><span style="color:black"><a href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__audio.icann.org_gnso_gnso-2Dnew-2Dgtld-2Dsubsequent-2D29aug17-2Den.mp3&d=DwMGaQ&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=PDd_FX3f4MVgkEIi9GHvVoUhbecsvLhgsyXrxgtbL10DTBs0i1jYiBM_uTSDzgqG&m=obbREXORBJPivVf5plDyNcYOvvW53lUwKnoVAkJwJ7A&s=B8cPRTc3bC8hxhvxh3lu8G7T-6n9-gm4xzuorjS6CsM&e=">http://audio.icann.org/gnso/gnso-new-gtld-subsequent-29aug17-en.mp3[audio.icann.org]</a><b>
</b></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="line-height:15.6pt"><b><span style="color:black">Adobe Connect Recording: </span></b><span style="color:black"><a href="https://participate.icann.org/p1a2xmy6015/">https://participate.icann.org/p1a2xmy6015/</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="line-height:15.6pt"><span style="color:black">The recordings and transcriptions of the calls are posted on the GNSO Master Calendar page:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span style="color:black"><a href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__gnso.icann.org_en_group-2Dactivities_calendar-23nov&d=DwMFAw&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=8_WhWIPqsLT6TmF1Zmyci866vcPSFO4VShFqESGe_5iHWGlBLwwwehFBfjrsjWv9&m=AhXNWBtYz-BXb7M2-3qcjKD0yCsmUykhrCZS5i-8AiE&s=QkqbJ4BucKABBgdhi6zxOiNbT63-FeBDIjTRmO2d7XA&e=" target="_blank"><span style="color:purple">http://gnso.icann.org/en/group-activities/calendar[gnso.icann.org]</span></a> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span style="color:black"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span style="color:black">** Please let me know if your name has been left off the list **</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span style="color:black"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span style="color:black">Mailing list archives: <a href="http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/gnso-newgtld-wg/" target="_blank"><span style="color:purple;background:white">http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/gnso-newgtld-wg/</span></a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span style="color:black"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span style="color:black">Wiki page: <a href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__community.icann.org_x_egchB&d=DwMGaQ&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=PDd_FX3f4MVgkEIi9GHvVoUhbecsvLhgsyXrxgtbL10DTBs0i1jYiBM_uTSDzgqG&m=obbREXORBJPivVf5plDyNcYOvvW53lUwKnoVAkJwJ7A&s=yAYosNnJ6APsR6Jrrs0BPDse6Fe-J2L_bk75T2QeNw8&e=">https://community.icann.org/x/egchB[community.icann.org]</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span style="color:black"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span style="color:black">Thank you.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span style="color:black">Kind regards,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span style="color:black">Michelle </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span style="color:black"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span style="color:black">-------------------------------</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><b><u><span style="color:black">Adobe Connect chat transcript for Tuesday, 29 August 2017</span></u></b><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">Michelle DeSmyter:Dear All, Welcome to the New gTLD Subsequent Procedures WG call on Tuesday, 29 August 2017 at 03:00 UTC</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Michelle DeSmyter:Agenda wiki page: <a href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__community.icann.org_x_egchB&d=DwICaQ&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=8_WhWIPqsLT6TmF1Zmyci866vcPSFO4VShFqESGe_5iHWGlBLwwwehFBfjrsjWv9&m=yzninMJUEcEsjY_rqjBXp4chOAq5OMfl23tUJPFbQTw&s=eKZPz428zpWnX0aO88PnF1Z8uFgu_WNLm3ph-ErlNuM&e=">https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__community.icann.org_x_egchB&d=DwICaQ&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=8_WhWIPqsLT6TmF1Zmyci866vcPSFO4VShFqESGe_5iHWGlBLwwwehFBfjrsjWv9&m=yzninMJUEcEsjY_rqjBXp4chOAq5OMfl23tUJPFbQTw&s=eKZPz428zpWnX0aO88PnF1Z8uFgu_WNLm3ph-ErlNuM&e=</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Kavouss Arasteh:Hi Michelle</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Michelle DeSmyter:Hi there Kavouss!</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> vanda scartezini:hi everyone</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Michael Flemming:Afternoon, everyone.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Jeff Neuman:hello</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Anne Aikman-Scalese (IPC):yes Jeff</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Michael Flemming:Loud and clear.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Krishna Seeburn (Kris):loud and clear</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Kavouss Arasteh:Hi everybody</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Jeff Neuman:hello</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO):hi all</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Anne Aikman-Scalese (IPC):Hi Cheryl</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Jeff Neuman:Starting call soon</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Kavouss Arasteh:Good time to all,the participants of the most popular and crowded group</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Anne Aikman-Scalese (IPC):Hey Kavouss - hope this is a good time of day for you!</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> vanda scartezini:thanks kavouss</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Kavouss Arasteh:Hi avri, here is 05,00 local time, your voice is sounds sleepy</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Annebeth Lange, ccNSO:Hello, everyone</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Michael Flemming:Sarah</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Michael Flemming:We can't hear you too well</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Maxim Alzoba (FAITID):Hello All</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Karen Day:yes</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Rubens Kuhl:We can hear you.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Sara Bockey:no worries</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Kavouss Arasteh:not sufficiently high level</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Michael Flemming:I turned up the speakers. It might've just been me</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Rubens Kuhl:Since WT2 is so light on topics, we will be sending Question 18 to them... ;-)</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Rubens Kuhl:(Actually WT2 and WT3)</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Heather Forrest:Very cruel, Rubens</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Heather Forrest:Great to hear that we have one co-leader for new WT5. Hope we can appoint others soon. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO):Heather we just like to share ;-)</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Jeff Neuman:Nothing yet frm GAC, but I understand they may be discussing it on their leadership meeting later this week</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Heather Forrest:I can do my best (from GNSO Council Chair perspective) to answer any questions on the points Avri is raising re PDP guidelines</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Heather Forrest:No problem Avri - I'm just going to ask about our progress in nominating a GNSO co-leader</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Rubens Kuhl:There are no minority or majority concepts in a consensus-based decision making. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Kavouss Arasteh:Rubens, but there are some concerns about consensus meaning</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Rubens Kuhl:Kavouss, consensus in a GNSO PDP can only mean one thing... but it shares its properties with the IETF rough consensus tradition, where even one view can change the outcome. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Rubens Kuhl:This is for instance the case of many encryption standards (TLS) where a single Google comment was able to change the outcome, since they were recognized as having the experience to point out things
that don't work in scale. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Kavouss Arasteh:Ihope there would be no more than one person from each 4 group</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Steve Chan:You can review GNSO PDP decision making rules under section 3.6 here in the WG guidelines: <a href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__gnso.icann.org_en_council_annex-2D1-2Dgnso-2Dwg-2Dguidelines-2D01sep16-2Den.pdf&d=DwICaQ&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=8_WhWIPqsLT6TmF1Zmyci866vcPSFO4VShFqESGe_5iHWGlBLwwwehFBfjrsjWv9&m=yzninMJUEcEsjY_rqjBXp4chOAq5OMfl23tUJPFbQTw&s=dhgBGvxjYq17Hs2I0hlmuAFQE8WInVlxVrPrbzjeDAM&e=">https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__gnso.icann.org_en_council_annex-2D1-2Dgnso-2Dwg-2Dguidelines-2D01sep16-2Den.pdf&d=DwICaQ&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=8_WhWIPqsLT6TmF1Zmyci866vcPSFO4VShFqESGe_5iHWGlBLwwwehFBfjrsjWv9&m=yzninMJUEcEsjY_rqjBXp4chOAq5OMfl23tUJPFbQTw&s=dhgBGvxjYq17Hs2I0hlmuAFQE8WInVlxVrPrbzjeDAM&e=</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Heather Forrest:@Jeff, Avri, good to know that this is in progress, and in accordance with standard practice. I wouldn't anticipate that Council itself would make nominations (as that would come through the SSC)</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Rubens Kuhl:Kavouss, it's never about quantity. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Kavouss Arasteh:That is not as simple as you qualified</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Robin Gross:Policy for generic names is guided by the GNSO under ICANNs bylaws. It sounds like some have a problem with the structure of ICANN.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO):very clear... thank you Arrive</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Anne Aikman-Scalese (IPC):I think it is a bit diifferent when ccNSO participates in a PDP. They don't really have quite the same policy-making process, do they?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Annebeth Lange, ccNSO:I am happy to hear that, Avri, since geographical names are of special interest to more groups than GNSO than any other gTLDs</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Jim Prendergast:so just to recap. the ccNSO has put forth someone, waiting on GNSO and ALAC but they are moving on it and we think GAC may be addressing it this week on leadership call. is that correct? and
what is the best guess on when the leadership will be settled?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Robin Gross:When does the GNSO get to participate in CCnso policy making?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Greg Shatan:Would it make sense to have a webinar on the GNSO PDP Working Group guidelines for those unfamiliar with them?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Philip Corwin:I don't understand how sincere outreach in the cause of inclusion could be regarded as an attempt to construct an 'alibi".</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Rubens Kuhl:Anne, ccNSO does have PDPs... their PDPs are usually less time-sensitive and less controversial, but they share some DNSO origins with GNSO, including PDPs. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Greg Shatan:That might allay some of these fears.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Karen Day:Good thought Greg.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Greg Shatan:It should be noted that GNSO PDP Working Groups are ALWAYS open to any participant from any group or no group.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Rubens Kuhl:Jim, GNSO Council will not be putting a name forward for GNSO. Those names were referred to reach out to the full WG chairs (Jeff and Avri) and come forward with their application. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Annebeth Lange, ccNSO:But Greg, in the end it will be the GNSO council that decides, will it not?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Anne Aikman-Scalese (IPC):It is a very positive that GAC representatives and ccNSO participate actively in Sub Pro.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Karen Day:@Kavouss - I can confirm that is the way this PDP is already operating with regard to work team co-leads. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Robin Gross:I'm trying to imagine what it would be like for GNSO participants to have equal footing with GAC in their working groups.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Greg Shatan:The Working Group's final report, after probably 2 rounds of public comment, and approval by the Working Group, will go to the Council for approval. But it is up to the WG to write and approve the
report.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Heather Forrest:The GNSO Council is required, under ICANN Bylaws, to vote on any recommendations of GNSO PDPs - but Council obviously respects the work of the PDP WGs</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Rubens Kuhl:Annebeth, GNSO Council is a process manager, not a legislative body... so the Council can verify if anything went outside of PDP process or conflicts with bylaws, but wouldn't replace the WG report
with their own views on something. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Heather Forrest:(Greg, Rubens and I have all just made the same point in different words - great minds think alike - and of course it would have to be that Council couldn't simply legislate on its own or we wouldn't
have or need PDP WGs)</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Greg Shatan:Good points Rubens and Heather (both on Council, by the way). The GNSO Council is also NOT a policy development body - that is the job of the (always open) Working Groups.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Greg Shatan:The role of the GNSO Council could be covered in the webinar as well.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Kavouss Arasteh:I suggest we say "SOME LEVEL"of preditabilty instead of "A LEVEL "</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Kavouss Arasteh:Ialso suggest to add the word"relative"before stability</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Annebeth Lange, ccNSO:I think there is a special sensitivity when it comes to geographical names among the other stakeholders, as many do not consider them "true generics". Since we only have 2 categories in
TLDs, these naturally fall under gTLDs. However, what I was reporting here were the concerns I hear. Since ICANN Bylaws are as they are, we have to try to make the best out of it to avoid the same problems we had in the last round, when many years of discussion
took place after the first AGB was produced.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Rubens Kuhl:Annebeth, I offer another angle on this: having the GNSO policy on those names defined is a kind of insurance that makes that if those names are considered gTLDs, they are also protected by reasonable
rules to assure they are not misused. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Jim Prendergast:don't forget impact of GAC advice as well</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Annebeth Lange, ccNSO:Thanks, Rubens</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Michael Flemming:Jeff, question for clarity. Predictability in our discussion is limited to the process itself and not necessarily the outcome as in delay in some TLDs to launch/use their TLD, correct?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Heather Forrest:Do we address specifically in this document how it is determined that something is policy as opposed to implementation (and vice versa)?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Michael Flemming:How about a sytem that allows the applications to be submitted in document format?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Michael Flemming:Ah, my apologies.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Maxim Alzoba (FAITID):RFP for system?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Maxim Alzoba (FAITID):at the first place</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Greg Shatan:It seems like the processes created by the Policy & Implementation Working Group should be applied to many of these instances.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Greg Shatan:Has this been considered?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Anne Aikman-Scalese (IPC):We lost heather.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Heather Forrest:We need to know what the vendor's timeline for fix is </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Anne Aikman-Scalese (IPC):Yes - Greg - I agree. The big issue here is Who should determine whether an issue involves policy or not. I think IRT should determine. I don't necessarily buy the notion that that
staff or some informal discussion can determine whether or not policy issues are involved. Current draft of Predictability Framework says "staff will collaborate with the community". I honestly don't know what that means in terms of decision-making. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Heather Forrest:@Jeff - one of the factors is the stress on the system. Having a "round" or "window" only opened for a brief time, with a definite closing day makes this more of an issue.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Kavouss Arasteh:Agree with Greg</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Jim Prendergast:I wouldn't say the don't care about it. ensuring the application process is secure and fair is critical to the trust int he program. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Kavouss Arasteh:If an issue came up where ICANN had to change application process, is this purely implementation? Is it something the community should weigh in on?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Kavouss Arasteh:Ifully agree with that</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Heather Forrest:Looks like we have 2 different conversations here in the chat - one on policy vs implementation, the other on the system</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Anne Aikman-Scalese (IPC):@Heather - the policy and implementation WG determined that it is not valuable to try to decide whether or not an issue is policy or implementation - it is only important to determine
how the policy maker (GNSO) decides to treat that topic - whether or not it involves policy.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Michael Flemming:Depends on the issue, no?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Heather Forrest:I agree with Jeff but it's not clear to me how we determine whether something goes back to the IRT or not</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Michael Flemming:Couldn't we have development of the system by one third party and then a risk analysis by another third party?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Rubens Kuhl:I don't think we can avoid an IRT, since this is a PDP WG . Non-PDP WGs perhaps could chose that. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Kavouss Arasteh:There is a background tlks</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Anne Aikman-Scalese (IPC):I have commented on the list that IRT should be "standing" - to be consulted whenever an issue arises.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Greg Shatan:I think trying to say some of these are not implementation issues is causing confusion.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Greg Shatan:Just as implementation problems raise policy issues, execution problems raise implementation issues.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Kavouss Arasteh:Jeff, I have some difficulties with you new term execution versus implemenation</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Greg Shatan:Maybe we need an Implementation & Execution Working Group....</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Rubens Kuhl:Jeff, the type of issues you mentioned sounds similar to the IANA CSC (Customer Standing Committee) to me. Perhaps we could recomend something in that direction ? NTAG (New gTLD Applicant Group) and
BRG (Brand Registry Group) both made interesting interactions with staff during the program. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Kavouss Arasteh:Jeff, may we avoid to use "Execution" ias it may cause some confusion with implemenation</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Kavouss Arasteh:eff, may we avoid to use "Execution" as it may cause some confusion with implemenation</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Jeff Neuman:@Kavouss - is there a better word to use?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Maxim Alzoba (FAITID):name collisions were poor third party report issue</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Jim Prendergast:name collision was actually a security and stability issue but your point is still valid</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Rubens Kuhl:Name collisions actually surfaced during policy development, nobody cared... surfaced during implementation, nobody cared... it ended up being defined at execution time, but it was not execution. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Kavouss Arasteh:Not to use it at all but stay with implementation only</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> avri doria:27 minutes left on meeting.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Anne Aikman-Scalese (IPC):Msut leave Adobe - can stay on the phone</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Rubens Kuhl:If CSC doesn't have a say in preventing a matter to be discussed at IRT, then when don't have to discuss what is execution, what is implementation, what is policy... </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Rubens Kuhl:I'm not, sorry. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Rubens Kuhl:(then we)</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> avri doria:if we decide to use execution, we will obviously need to define it. I suggest we try and base our discrimination between the two based on the analysis done by the GNSO and published as a report.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Kavouss Arasteh:Yes</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> avri doria:and as Anee said, it determined that the two were never completely disentagled, though at the beginning of a project it was mostly policy and at the end it was mostly implementation.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> avri doria:apologies: as Annne said ...</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Greg Shatan:How would the ExCSC differ from the IRT?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Kavouss Arasteh:yes to the question you raised</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Rubens Kuhl:Greg, usually less members, with roles representing different parties. In IANA they are gTLD registries, non-registries GNSO, ccTLD registries, RIRs, protocols;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Kavouss Arasteh:Jeff, as you suggested ,we need to give a hand to ICANN Staff in those circumstances</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Michael Flemming:Greg has his hand raised</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Rubens Kuhl:For a SubPro CSC, it could be "applicants", "current registries", "objectors" and "communities" or something like that.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Trang Nguyen:The process documentation work that we recently did can help to clarify the phases. There is the policy development process, carried out by the community. Once the Board adopts, then it's the policy
implementation phase carried out by ICANN and IRT. This phase concludes upon the effective date of the policy, which in this context would be the opening of the application process. Then it moves into the operations phase. The CPIF and IRT are applicable to
the policy implementation phase. Once the policy is in operation and issues arise, we need some guidance on how to deal with issues, particularly issues where the policy is silent on.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Rubens Kuhl:Trang, operations phase is so much better than execution. Execution reminds me of people being killed. ;-)</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> vanda scartezini:quite clear Trang. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> avri doria:i do not think there are any inherent limitations in the amont of time an IRT serves.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Rubens Kuhl:But I would hope that issues where the policy is silent on should go back to the IRT, because it looks like some policy guidance was expected but not available. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> avri doria:and the WG makes recommendations on how an IRT will be formed and run.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Greg Shatan:If policy guidance is needed, then the P&IWG processes are supposed to be used.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Greg Shatan:I don't think "confusion" is the issue....</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> avri doria:i agree a graphic will be useful.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> avri doria:15 minutes left to meeting</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Michael Flemming:Wouldn't it be an ORT in that case?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Michael Flemming:poor joke, sorry</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Kavouss Arasteh:How we are ensured that such action does not have any impact on policy developped</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Kavouss Arasteh:How we are ensured that such action wuld not have any impact on policy developped</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Rubens Kuhl:@Kavouss, that can be a post-facto control: somebody would file an RfR (Request for Consideration) for such action. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Rubens Kuhl:I did care a lot for that particular change Jeff mentioned. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Kavouss Arasteh:There is some voice in the backgroud when Greg speaking</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Greg Shatan:Apologies, I have guests. My cousin has just arrived from Los Angeles. My wife is entertaining him while I do this.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Maxim Alzoba (FAITID):I think multistakeholder model works with policy and not with at implementation </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Kavouss Arasteh:Maxim +1</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Greg Shatan:I told them I was helping to run the Internet. They were not impressed.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Greg Shatan:I absolutely disagree with the idea that the multistakeholder model doesn't work with implemementation.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Greg Shatan:IRTs are multistakeholder.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Kavouss Arasteh:I also have difficulties the MSH be involved in the implementation process</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Trang Nguyen:The discussion around taking things back to IRTs imply that implementation needs to be changed/modified when in fact I think of the example about PDT test specs as operational evolution. From that
perspective, I like Jeff's suggestion of a standing panel.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Maxim Alzoba (FAITID):ICANN staff implements, and they do not allow us to interfere directly :)</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> avri doria:I tend to beleive that all processes in ICANN should be mulitstakeholder at their base.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Greg Shatan:Oh, those pesky multistakeholders. They keep wanting to stay in the room....</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Greg Shatan:I don</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Greg Shatan:I don't consider the role of the community to be "interference".</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Rubens Kuhl:Greg, I like the multistakeholders in the room... but sometimes we need the ones directed affected by something to come forward. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Greg Shatan:It is guidance and review.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Greg Shatan:It sounds like some people don't like the idea of IRTs?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> avri doria:i think that directly affected and indirectly affected are incredibly hard to disentangle.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Greg Shatan:The indirectly affected can be more objective about the issues.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> avri doria:3 minutes</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Kavouss Arasteh:Any thing that slow down the process should be avoided</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Cheryl Langdon-Orr:lots to think ovver from todays call... Thanks everyone</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Maxim Alzoba (FAITID):bye all</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Heather Forrest:Thanks Avri and Jeff</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Sara Bockey:thanks all</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Cheryl Langdon-Orr:Bye for now then</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Aslam G Mohamed:Thanks everyone. See you in Abu Dhabi</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Greg Shatan:Bye all!</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> vanda scartezini:thanks all</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> Annebeth Lange, ccNSO:Bye</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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