[Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Proposal contactability
Volker Greimann
vgreimann at key-systems.net
Mon Aug 18 17:27:48 UTC 2014
Hi Susan,
I do not see it as necessarily as a different treatment. The registrant
is still required to provide accurate and reliable contact details,
these details are just not published. Just in the same way I can have a
functioning email address but route undesired mails to the trashcan
automatically prior to retrieving the mails, so can other automated or
manual means be employed to filter undesired communications. A privacy
service is just another of those means.
Can the data the registrant be provided be relied upon? Of course, since
the service provider needs to be able to contact them. In case of a full
or partial reveal, the data will be revealed as reliable. Accurate and
reliable date does not suddenly become unreliable data by the mere fact
that it is hidden. The data is just as reliable or unreliable whether it
is public or hidden.
If I as a registrant wanted to build my details in a way that any mail
sent to me would be met with an automated responder that instructs the
sender to fill in a webform, that would be perfectly fine. Sure, I
cannot be reached through that address, but I can be contacted. Why
should privacy services be different?
Best,
Volker
Am 18.08.2014 18:24, schrieb Susan Kawaguchi:
>
> What I do not understand is why a proxy registration should be treated
> so differently than the other 75% of gTld domain name registrations?
>
> In the 2013 RAA section 3.7.7.1 it states the following:
>
> 3.7.7.1 The Registered Name Holder shall provide to Registraraccurate
> and reliable contact details and correct and update them within seven
> (7) days of any change during the term of the Registered Name
> registration, including: the full name, postal address, e-mail
> address, voice telephone number, and fax number if available of the
> Registered Name Holder; name of authorized person for contact purposes
> in the case of an Registered Name Holder that is an organization,
> association, or corporation; and the data elements listed in
> Subsections 3.3.1.2, 3.3.1.7 and 3.3.1.8.
>
> Creating a new method of contacting the registered name holder and
> underlying licensee or not relaying communications via email or to the
> postal address does not appear to fulfill the requirement of “accurate
> and reliable contact details”
>
> A proxy registration information may be accurate but currently the
> information fails as reliable contact details.
>
> Requiring a webform be filled out and submitted to contact the
> Registered name holder and underlying licensee when the other 75% of
> gTld domain name registrations are required to have a reliable email
> address and postal address sets the proxy registrations apart. The
> webform is not listed as a requirement in section 3. 7.7.1. Why
> would we afford this special treatment to the proxy registrations?
>
> I realize the service has developed in this manner but it is also the
> reason we are continuing to discuss this issue.
>
> Susan Kawaguchi
>
> Domain Name Manager
>
> Facebook Legal Dept.
>
> Phone - 650 485-6064
>
>
> From: <Williams>, Todd <Todd.Williams at turner.com
> <mailto:Todd.Williams at turner.com>>
> Date: Monday, August 18, 2014 at 8:19 AM
> To: "James M. Bladel" <jbladel at godaddy.com
> <mailto:jbladel at godaddy.com>>, Volker Greimann
> <vgreimann at key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net>>,
> "gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg at icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg at icann.org>"
> <gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg at icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg at icann.org>>
> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Proposal contactability
>
> Thanks James. Quick question: if, as you note, most of your P/P
> customers engage the service to avoid being spammed – why is that
> objective/purpose not sufficiently protected by a standard that says
> “A provider must relay all electronic requests received (including
> emails and via web forms), but may implement commercially reasonable
> safeguards (including CAPTCHA) to filter out spam.”?
>
> By asking the question I don’t necessarily mean to make a judgment on
> your “access whitelist” idea. I’m just not sure I understand its
> utility on this specific question (relay), where a means to address
> the problem that it is trying to solve (i.e., spam) appears to have
> already been baked in.
>
> Thanks
>
>
> TW.
>
> *From:*gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org
> <mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org>
> [mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org] *On Behalf Of *James M.
> Bladel
> *Sent:* Sunday, August 17, 2014 6:23 PM
> *To:* Volker Greimann; gnso <mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg at icann.org>(most
> of our P/P customers engage the service to avoid being spammed).
>
> *Subject:* Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Proposal contactability
>
> Thanks to Volker for getting this conversation started. I also share
> the belief that we should define a system that assures reporters their
> claims will be relayed by P/P services. However, I disagree on some
> key points raised by Volker and others.
>
> First, I do not believe there should be any attempt to filter
> submitted reports based on content. That approach does not scale, and
> simply results in an arms race where would-be spammers attempt to
> circumvent the filters. Also, I do not believe P/P services should
> relay —all—reports. This treats the P/P email point of contact as an
> email “alias” for the beneficial user’s real address, and completely
> defeats the purpose of the service
>
> I favor an approach that is modeled after ICANN’s Invalid WHOIS
> Reporting System, and one that many Registrars have implemented to
> guard against WHOIS harvesting – an access whitelist. Speaking
> generally, such a system would require reporters to identify
> themselves when submitting a claim for relay. Is reporter should also
> have to designate the email address from which relay claims will
> originate, and the service provider agrees to honor relay request from
> that Address without discriminating on its content. The P/P service
> provider can then monitor the use of the relay system by each
> reporter, and suspend or terminate access for any reporter that is
> found to be abusing the system.
>
> If this sounds familiar, it is blatantly copied from the EWG's
> proposed RDS concept. I think this idea has merit, and regardless of
> what happens to the rest of the EWG's recommendations, we should
> consider opportunities to implement this proposal in existing contexts.
>
> Look forward to continuing our discussions on this point on Tuesday.
>
> Thanks—
>
> J.
>
> *From: *Volker Greimann <vgreimann at key-systems.net
> <mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net>>
> *Date: *Wednesday, August 13, 2014 at 4:27
> *To: *"gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg at icann.org
> <mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg at icann.org>" <gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg at icann.org
> <mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg at icann.org>>
> *Subject: *[Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Proposal contactability
>
> As Susan and Steve have repeatedly asked what my proposal would be to
> ensure contactability of the beneficial owner/registrant.
>
> As a basis, a spec derivative of the WAP spec to the RAA would have to
> be developed. I took the liberty of modifying the WAP for this purpose
> as a basis for discussion.
> This would bring the obligation of the privacy service provider to
> validate and verify the contact details to the same level of that of
> the registrar, thus ensuring the Service Provider has either accurate
> details or a duty to verify and validate.
>
> Now, I would agree that some level of a contactibility guarantee is
> warranted. This could be something to this tune, as a basis for
> discussion:
>
> /"Service Provider are required provide a means for third parties to
> directly or indirectly communicate with the Beneficial Owner. Such
> means may include any of the following:
> a) providing a postal mail forwarding address
> b) providing a collective email point of contact for all domain names
> under the Service (such as abuse at service.provider
> <mailto:abuse at service.provider>)
> c) providing an individual email point of contact for each domain name
> under the Service (such as string at domain.name
> <mailto:string at domain.name> or domain.name at service.provider
> <mailto:domain.name at service.provider>)
> ...
> ...
>
> Service Provider must inform potential complainants about the accepted
> means of communication on its website. Service provider may refuse to
> forward, process or even accept communications sent by a non-accepted
> means of communication. In case forwarding of postal communications is
> offered, Service Provider may charge complainant reasonable handling
> fees and costs for the forwarding service and defer the forwarding of
> communications until payment is received.
>
> Service Provider may refuse to forward spam, duplicate messages,
> purchase or business inquiries, harrassing communications, anonymous
> communications and/or unwanted communications. Service Provider is
> authorized to update or modify the means of communication from time to
> time. Service Provider is authorized to blacklist complainants with a
> history of abusing the provided means of communication."/
>
> All subject to further discussion, ofc.
>
> I realize this draft goes into detail more than we should in this WG,
> but having been asked for a proposal, I felt it necessary in order to
> move the discussion ahead.
> Terms:
> Service Provider - Privacy/Proxy Service Provider
> Beneficial Owner - Replaces "Registrant"
> filter - not deliver to Beneficial owner
> Service - the privacy/proxy services
>
> --
> Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
>
> Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
>
> Volker A. Greimann
> - Rechtsabteilung -
>
> Key-Systems GmbH
> Im Oberen Werk 1
> 66386 St. Ingbert
> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
> Email:vgreimann at key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net>
>
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>
> --------------------------------------------
>
> Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Volker A. Greimann
> - legal department -
>
> Key-Systems GmbH
> Im Oberen Werk 1
> 66386 St. Ingbert
> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
> Email:vgreimann at key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net>
>
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> V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
>
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>
--
Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Volker A. Greimann
- Rechtsabteilung -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net
Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net
www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com
Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:
www.facebook.com/KeySystems
www.twitter.com/key_systems
Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin
Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
www.keydrive.lu
Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
--------------------------------------------
Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
Best regards,
Volker A. Greimann
- legal department -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net
Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net
www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com
Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:
www.facebook.com/KeySystems
www.twitter.com/key_systems
CEO: Alexander Siffrin
Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
www.keydrive.lu
This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
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