[Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] PPSAI Work Plan
James M. Bladel
jbladel at godaddy.com
Thu Feb 6 14:43:18 UTC 2014
I would be interested in seeing data that substantiates Bob's claim.
J.
> On Feb 6, 2014, at 6:22, "Bob Bruen" <bruen at coldrain.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> Hi Gema,
>
> I am in agreement with you. Based on years of practical experience, the bad actors far outnumber those who have a legitimate need for anonimity.
>
> --bob
>
>> On Thu, 6 Feb 2014, Campillos Gonzalez, Gema Maria wrote:
>>
>> How far apart we are in this! As a provider offering that option (reveal or abandon), it will attract political dissidents, persecuted religious minorities, whistleblowers... but it must be aware that it is luring into the service many wrongdoers, confidence tricksters, IPR pirate sites, illegal gambling sites, child abusers, malware distributors and the like. I´m not so sure it could claim it is not actively contributing to unlawful activity. But´s that another story.
>>
>> My point is that the mere possibility of offering that option damps the ability of public authorities to protect public interests and could be against the law. If, as most of you believe, the provider should only process requests coming from a LEA within their jurisdiction, requests aimed at dissidents, religious leaders ... would be stopped there.
>>
>> I´ve discovered only yesterday that IP providers and hosting services are acting sometimes as proxies for the real hosting service. So, the business thrives and diversifies to the despair of LEAs.
>>
>> Kind regards,
>>
>> Gema
>>
>>
>> -----Mensaje original-----
>> De: Wendy Seltzer [mailto:wendy at seltzer.com]
>> Enviado el: miércoles, 05 de febrero de 2014 16:19
>> Para: Michele Neylon - Blacknight; Volker Greimann; Campillos Gonzalez, Gema Maria; Tim Ruiz; gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg at icann.org
>> Asunto: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] PPSAI Work Plan
>>
>>> On 02/05/2014 09:40 AM, Michele Neylon - Blacknight wrote:
>>> Volker
>>>
>>> Yeah - that's something I was very conscious of when we discussed this
>>> in the EWG Simply pulling the service might not be enough to protect you as a provider .. and forcing all providers into that kind of situation seemed unreasonable . .
>>
>> That's not universally true in the law. I'd argue that under US law, there's no liability on a provider of domain registry services who does not encourage or knowingly contribute to unlawful activity. [long discussion of secondary liability elsewhere, including in past discussions of the legal absurdity of 3.7.7.3 ]
>>
>> So providers should be permitted to take that view.
>>
>> --Wendy
>>
>>> M
>>> --
>>> Mr Michele Neylon
>>> Blacknight Solutions
>>> Hosting & Colocation, Domains
>>> http://www.blacknight.co/
>>> http://blog.blacknight.com/
>>> http://www.technology.ie
>>> Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072
>>> Locall: 1850 929 929
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>>> Twitter: http://twitter.com/mneylon
>>> -------------------------------
>>> Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business
>>> Park,Sleaty Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,Ireland Company No.: 370845
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org
>>> [mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org] On Behalf Of Volker
>>> Greimann
>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 5, 2014 1:49 PM
>>> To: Wendy Seltzer; Campillos Gonzalez, Gema Maria; Tim Ruiz;
>>> gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg at icann.org
>>> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] PPSAI Work Plan
>>>
>>> While I understand this concern from a privacy standpoint, as a service provider this is problematic as one needs to be able to point to the responsible party in case of legal violations in order to avoid culpability and liability.
>>>
>>> Volker
>>>
>>>>> Dear Wendy, Tim, Volker and Group,
>>>>>
>>>>> As regards the last paragraph on Wendy´s message...
>>>>>
>>>>> I've proposed that registrants be offered the choice between potential reveal and potential termination of registration (that choice could be offered up-front at the time of registration, or at the time of the identification request). For some registrants, such as legitimate whistleblowers whose anonymity for fear of retaliation is more important than the persistence of their domain identifier, this choice may be important. I hope we're at least leaving the opportunity for a compliant service to offer an "unidentified de-registration" option, even though we don't need to mandate it for all.
>>>>>
>>>>> I have deep concerns with offering such a service. If the P&P service receives a request to reveal the identity and contact data of the registrant, I doubt it can refuse to relay them on account of the de-registration of the domain name (which should be done through the registrar). If the request comes from an individual or organization holding a legitimate interest, there may be situations in which they would still be entitled to get those data (I´m thinking of a prospective file suit or extrajudicial request for redress). But, let us discuss thoroughly at the appropriate time in the Work Plan.
>>>> I believe it should be legitimate to offer a service that has no
>>>> possibility of identifying the registrant. Instead, it has other
>>>> accountability, namely that the domain name stops resolving upon
>>>> receipt of a legitimate complaint. That's the tradeoff I propose,
>>>> that there be some situations in which it is by design impossible to
>>>> get the identification of the registrant, but it's also impossible to
>>>> keep the name in the face of a complaint.
>>>>
>>>> --Wendy
>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>
>>>>> Gema
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Mensaje original-----
>>>>> De: gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org
>>>>> [mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org] En nombre de Tim Ruiz
>>>>> Enviado el: martes, 04 de febrero de 2014 16:58
>>>>> Para: Wendy Seltzer; Volker Greimann; gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg at icann.org
>>>>> Asunto: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] PPSAI Work Plan
>>>>>
>>>>> Wendy, I believe Kathy made sure that was captured in our call today.
>>>>> ________________________________________
>>>>> From:
>>>>> gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces
>>>>> @
>>>>> icann.org>
>>>>> <gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounce
>>>>> s @icann.org>> on behalf of Wendy Seltzer
>>>>> <wendy at seltzer.com<mailto:wendy at seltzer.com>>
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2014 10:47 AM
>>>>> To: Volker Greimann;
>>>>> gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg at icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg at icann.org>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] PPSAI Work Plan
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 01/30/2014 09:13 AM, Volker Greimann wrote:
>>>>>> Hi Gema,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> One note to Main issue 3 as it is proposed: This assumes that the
>>>>>> provider has that kind of access or ability. In many cases, the
>>>>>> privacy service just allows for the provision of its data and acts
>>>>>> as a forwarding service. In the case of the provider affiliated
>>>>>> with us, the provider has one ability only: Request the removal of
>>>>>> its data from the whois. Other privacy services may have even less
>>>>>> influence over the
>>>>>> registration-
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So requiring a takedown or disabling/terminating the registrants'
>>>>>> access may not be something that a privacy or proxy service
>>>>>> provider is set up to do, depending on how he is integrated with
>>>>>> the registrar/reseller/registrant.
>>>>>> In the past we have always talked about relay and reveal. These are
>>>>>> the main opptions every provider should have in my opinion.
>>>>>> Anything beyond that may not be feasible and may not even be in the remit of the provider.
>>>>> If we're considering what should be required of services under a new proposed accreditation regime, then we should be prepared to think of what the system should have, not just what it can currently accommodate.
>>>>>
>>>>> I've proposed that registrants be offered the choice between potential reveal and potential termination of registration (that choice could be offered up-front at the time of registration, or at the time of the identification request). For some registrants, such as legitimate whistleblowers whose anonymity for fear of retaliation is more important than the persistence of their domain identifier, this choice may be important. I hope we're at least leaving the opportunity for a compliant service to offer an "unidentified de-registration" option, even though we don't need to mandate it for all.
>>>>>
>>>>> --Wendy
>>>>>
>>>>>> Volker
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Am 30.01.2014 13:09, schrieb Campillos Gonzalez, Gema Maria:
>>>>>>> Dear Group,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I have worked on the PPSAI Charter Questions Grouping and here you
>>>>>>> have the result.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Gema Campillos
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Deputy Director of Information Society Services
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Secretary of State for Telecommunications and Information Society
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> SPAIN
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *De:*gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org
>>>>>>> [mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org] *En nombre de *Mary
>>>>>>> Wong *Enviado el:* miércoles, 29 de enero de 2014 16:57
>>>>>>> *Para:*
>>>>>>> gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg at icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg at icann.org>
>>>>>>> *Asunto:* Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] PPSAI Work Plan
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Dear Don, Jim and everyone,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> One of the various items for consideration in developing the WG's
>>>>>>> Work Plan will involve the planned timing of deliverables relating
>>>>>>> to each category of questions (however many there ultimately are
>>>>>>> or whether each category is tackled by a different sub-team). The
>>>>>>> WG may wish to consider, for example, whether certain
>>>>>>> questions/categories need to be addressed before others.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hopefully our next iteration of the Mind Map and proposed
>>>>>>> timeline/work plan will assist the WG in discussing Jim's
>>>>>>> suggestions, which reflects the methodology used in a couple of
>>>>>>> other WGs (and it is good to know that your team felt the IGO-INGO
>>>>>>> WG experience was productive and helpful, Jim!). The work plan is
>>>>>>> likely change over time depending on the nature and outcome of the
>>>>>>> WG (or
>>>>>>> sub-team) discussions, and as Jim notes certain categories (e.g.
>>>>>>> Main
>>>>>>> Issues) may be more organic than others.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Should the WG decide to proceed via sub-teams, another thing to
>>>>>>> consider would be ensuring that the work is spread evenly across
>>>>>>> the WG rather than have a small group of people spread across
>>>>>>> various sub-teams (especially if the deliverables from those are
>>>>>>> due in short order!).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I hope these thoughts are useful. To assist with your review of
>>>>>>> Jim's suggestions, I attach an updated version of Jim's document
>>>>>>> which adds the threshold question for Section III discussed on the
>>>>>>> call yesterday (using Steve's suggested wording) and with a couple
>>>>>>> of comments inserted to help provide context to one or two
>>>>>>> sub-questions that Kathy had asked about.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks and cheers
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Mary
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Mary Wong
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Senior Policy Director
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Telephone: +1 603 574 4892
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Email: mary.wong at icann.org<mailto:mary.wong at icann.org>
>>>>>>> <mailto:mary.wong at icann.org>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> * One World. One Internet. *
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *From: *Don Blumenthal <dblumenthal at pir.org
>>>>>>> <mailto:dblumenthal at pir.org>>
>>>>>>> *Date: *Wednesday, January 29, 2014 9:45 AM
>>>>>>> *To: *Jim Bikoff <jbikoff at sgbdc.com
>>>>>>> <mailto:jbikoff at sgbdc.com<mailto:jbikoff at sgbdc.com%20<mailto:jbiko
>>>>>>> f f at sgbdc.com>>>, "gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg at icann.org
>>>>>>> <mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg at icann.org><mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg at icann.org%20<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg at icann.org>>"
>>>>>>> <gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg at icann.org
>>>>>>> <mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg at icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg at icann.
>>>>>>> org%20<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg at icann.org>>>
>>>>>>> *Subject: *Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] PPSAI Work Plan
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Jim,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks very much for all the work you put in on this. I am very
>>>>>>> anxious to see the group's thoughts on it. I will reserve mine for
>>>>>>> now except to note that reviewing seven reports each week is
>>>>>>> inducing cold sweats already. :)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I will note up front though that apart from process
>>>>>>> considerations, staff support availability will have to be part of
>>>>>>> our work plan decisions.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Don
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *From: *Jim Bikoff <jbikoff at sgbdc.com <mailto:jbikoff at sgbdc.com<mailto:jbikoff at sgbdc.com%20<mailto:jbikoff at sgbdc.com>>>
>>>>>>> *Date: *Tuesday, January 28, 2014 at 6:04 PM
>>>>>>> *To: *Don Blumenthal <dblumenthal at pir.org
>>>>>>> <mailto:dblumenthal at pir.org>>, PPSAI <gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg at icann.org
>>>>>>> <mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg at icann.org>>
>>>>>>> *Subject: *PPSAI Work Plan
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Dear Don,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As you indicated, a Work Plan should help guide our Group's
>>>>>>> efforts over the upcoming weeks. We have some suggestions, based
>>>>>>> on our positive experience in the IGO/INGO PDP Working Group.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Please give us the benefit of your thoughts on the following
>>>>>>> suggested Work Plan:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 1. Summarize and compile Working Group survey
>>>>>>> responses --possibly in an Excel file, circulated among Group
>>>>>>> members. This should be a task for ICANN Staff.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 2.Based on Working Group survey responses, clarify the terminology
>>>>>>> and issues in each Group of the Charter questions. Identify
>>>>>>> consensus or near-consensus responses and hold Consensus Call on
>>>>>>> these issues.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 3.Create Working Group sub-teams to work on issues by group: (a)
>>>>>>> Registration; (b) Maintenance; (c) Contact; (d) Relay; (e) Reveal;
>>>>>>> (f) Publication; (g) Termination. Note that the current groupings
>>>>>>> of questions do not include "Publication" or "Termination"
>>>>>>> categories. We propose adding these categories, which would
>>>>>>> include questions taken out of other current categories, as
>>>>>>> identified in the attached redline draft. Note also that the
>>>>>>> remaining questions in the Main Issues group, an overarching
>>>>>>> category, would be addressed organically as a result of this
>>>>>>> proposed process.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> a) Each sub-team produces a report, which is delivered to Don by
>>>>>>> each Friday or Saturday at the latest, so it can be combined by
>>>>>>> staff with the other sub-team reports and discussed at the
>>>>>>> upcoming Tuesday Working Group teleconference.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> b) When the responses to the survey come in from the other
>>>>>>> constituencies, ICANN staff summarizes the responses for the
>>>>>>> Working Group. Each sub-team then analyzes the constituencies' and
>>>>>>> Working Group's responses (including majority and minority
>>>>>>> views) in its area, and delivers the result to Don by Friday or
>>>>>>> Saturday, so ICANN staff can combine it all in one document, such
>>>>>>> as an Excel file, for full Working Group review.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 4. Working Group holds Consensus Call and revises final Excel file
>>>>>>> of responses to survey accordingly.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 5.Draft report presenting (1) Consensus Proposals (if any); (2)
>>>>>>> Non-Consensus Proposals w/ Levels of Support; (3) Minority Views
>>>>>>> w/Levels of Support.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 6. Present Report for Public Comment.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This process will provide a means to circle back to the remaining
>>>>>>> Main Issues questions.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Jim
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> James L. Bikoff
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Silverberg, Goldman & Bikoff, LLP
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 1101 30th Street, NW
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Suite 120
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Washington, DC 20007
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Tel: 202-944-3303
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Fax: 202-944-3306
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> jbikoff at sgbdc.com<mailto:jbikoff at sgbdc.com>
>>>>>>> <mailto:jbikoff at sgbdc.com>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg mailing list
>>>>>>> Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg at icann.org<mailto:Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg at icann.org>
>>>>>>> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg mailing list
>>>>>> Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg at icann.org<mailto:Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg at icann.org>
>>>>>> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Wendy Seltzer -- wendy at seltzer.org<mailto:wendy at seltzer.org> +1
>>>>> 617.863.0613 Policy Counsel, World Wide Web Consortium (W3C) Fellow,
>>>>> Berkman Center for Internet & Society at Harvard University Visiting
>>>>> Fellow, Yale Law School Information Society Project
>>>>> http://wendy.seltzer.org/ https://www.chillingeffects.org/
>>>>> https://www.torproject.org/ http://www.freedom-to-tinker.com/
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg mailing list
>>>>> Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg at icann.org<mailto:Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg at icann.org>
>>>>> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg mailing list
>>>>> Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg at icann.org<mailto:Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg at icann.org>
>>>>> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg
>>>
>>> --
>>> Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
>>>
>>> Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
>>>
>>> Volker A. Greimann
>>> - Rechtsabteilung -
>>>
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>>
>>
>> --
>> Wendy Seltzer -- wendy at seltzer.org +1 617.863.0613 Policy Counsel, World Wide Web Consortium (W3C) Fellow, Berkman Center for Internet & Society at Harvard University Visiting Fellow, Yale Law School Information Society Project http://wendy.seltzer.org/ https://www.chillingeffects.org/ https://www.torproject.org/ http://www.freedom-to-tinker.com/
>> _______________________________________________
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>
> --
> Dr. Robert Bruen
> Cold Rain Labs
> http://coldrain.net/bruen
> +1.802.579.6288
> _______________________________________________
> Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg mailing list
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