[Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Privacy/Proxy and spam/botnets
Don Blumenthal
dblumenthal at pir.org
Mon Jan 20 18:01:20 UTC 2014
I¹m jumping in briefly to rename this thread.
And request that assertions of fact (spam percentages and origin of proxy
and privacy services to name a couple) be accompanied by documentation so
we can get a head start on assembling materials. It will have to happen
now or later.
Don
On 1/20/14, 12:47 PM, "Volker Greimann" <vgreimann at key-systems.net> wrote:
>As a European, I believe in data protection and data privacy.
>Information that needs to be public should be. Information that does not
>should not. "The public" indeed does not need that data. If you think
>that is extreme...
>
>BTW: I also have an issue with tapping phones, logging connection data,
>logging private communication, etc.
>
>Volker
>
>Am 20.01.2014 18:36, schrieb Bob Bruen:
>> Hi Volker,
>>
>> Law Enforcement has been compaining for years about access to whois
>> and still do. This is just an obstacle thrown up to slow down finding
>> who the bad actors are. Getting court orders and warrants just to see
>> who owns a domain (commercial) is way out there. The information was
>> intended to be public in the first place.
>>
>> It appears that you have decided that the general public does not
>> deserve access to public whois data. Again, I do not know what to say
>> to something so extreme.
>>
>> --bob
>>
>>
>> On Mon, 20 Jan 2014, Volker Greimann wrote:
>>
>>> No identities of criminals are effectively protected by privacy
>>> services, provided they are required to reveal such
>>> identities to law enforcement of appropriate jurisdiction.
>>>
>>> Private individuals, vigilantes or other interested parties on the
>>> other hand have no real legitimate interest to receive
>>> data on alleged criminals data unless they want to take matters best
>>> left to LEAs into their own hands.
>>>
>>> There is a reason why even criminals have the right to privacy and
>>> not to have their full names and likenesses published.
>>> Heck, in Japan, TV stations even mosaic handcuffs of suspects.
>>>
>>> Volker
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi Tim,
>>>
>>> The harm is protecting the identities of criminnals. And I
>>> consider undermining whois a harm, as well
>>>
>>> --bob
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, 20 Jan 2014, Tim Ruiz wrote:
>>>
>>> What are the problems commercial entities that use p/p
>>> have caused?
>>>
>>> On Jan 20, 2014, at 8:11 AM, "Bob Bruen"
>>> <bruen at coldrain.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi Volker,
>>>
>>> I was merely responding to Stephanie's comments
>>> about the difficulties, not advocating a
>>> position.
>>>
>>> However, as you are aware, I do advocate barring
>>> commercial entities from using p/p,
>>> because the use has already caused harm and we
>>> should fix that. The providers created
>>> the problem in the first place, so allowing them to
>>> continue to control it simply
>>> continues the problem.
>>>
>>> The discussion of all this is the point of this
>>> group (and other groups).
>>>
>>> --bob
>>>
>>> On Mon, 20 Jan 2014, Volker Greimann wrote:
>>>
>>> I agree that it would be possible to bar
>>> commercial entities from using p/p
>>> services, however I am not sure it is the
>>> sensible thing to do. Certainly, there is
>>> abuse, but by creating a blanket
>>> prohibition, i fear more damage will be done to
>>> legitimate interests than good is done to
>>> illegitimate ones.
>>> In the end it should be up to the provider
>>> which categories of clients it
>>> accepts.
>>> Volker
>>> Am 20.01.2014 02:08, schrieb Bob Bruen:
>>>
>>> Hi Stephanie,
>>>
>>> It is entirely possible to decide to bar
>>> commercial entities, create a
>>> definition of "comercial entities" and
>>> then deal with those which appear to
>>> problematical.
>>>
>>> The fraudsters probably will not be a
>>> set up as a legitimate bussiness,
>>> but their sites can be identified as
>>> spam, malware, etc types and thus taking
>>> money, therefore a business. I
>>> am sure there are other methods to deal
>>> with problem domain names.
>>>
>>> In general, exceptions or problems
>>> should not derail a process.
>>>
>>> --bob
>>>
>>> On Sun, 19 Jan 2014, Stephanie Perrin
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> I dont want to keep beating a dead
>>> horse here....but if there is
>>> a resounding
>>> response of "yes indeed, bar
>>> commercial entities from using P/P
>>> services", then
>>> how are you going to propose that
>>> p/p proxy service providers
>>> determine who is a
>>> commercial entity, particularly in
>>> jurisdictions which have
>>> declined to regulate
>>> the provision of goods and
>>> services over the Internet? I don't
>>> like asking
>>> questions that walk us into
>>> corners we cannot get out of. Do the
>>> fraudsters we
>>> are worried about actually apply
>>> for business numbers and
>>> articles of
>>> incorporation in the jurisdictions
>>> in which they operate? I
>>> operate in a
>>> jurisdiction where this
>>> distinction is often extremely difficult
>>> to make. THe
>>> determination would depend on the
>>> precise use being made of the
>>> domain
>>> name....which gets ICANN squarely
>>> into content analysis, and
>>> which can hardly be
>>> done for new registrations, even
>>> if t were within ICANN's remit.
>>> I am honestly
>>> not trying to be difficult, but I
>>> just have not heard a good
>>> answer to this
>>> problem.
>>> Stephanie Perrin
>>> On 2014-01-19, at 4:38 PM, Holly
>>> Raiche wrote:
>>>
>>> Jin and all
>>> I agree with Jim here (and Don
>>> earlier). The important task here
>>> is
>>> agreeing on the questions to be
>>> asked of the SO/ACs. So we need
>>> to get
>>> back to framing the questions -
>>> not answering them, however
>>> tempting that
>>> may be.
>>>
>>> So the question of whether
>>> 'commercial entities' should be barred
>>> is still
>>> a useful question to ask. The next
>>> question would be whether
>>> there are
>>> possible distinctions that should
>>> be drawn between an entity that
>>> can use
>>> the service and one that can't
>>> and, if so, where is the line
>>> drawn. I agree
>>> with the discussion on how
>>> difficult that will be because many
>>> entities
>>> that have corporate status also
>>> have reasonable grounds for
>>> wanting the
>>> protection of such a service
>>> (human rights organisations or
>>> women's refuges
>>> come to mind). But that is the
>>> sort of response we are seeking
>>> from
>>> others outside of this group - so
>>> let's not prejudge answers.
>>> Let's only
>>> frame the questions that will help
>>> us come to some sensible
>>> answers.
>>> Otherwise, we'll never get to the
>>> next steps.
>>>
>>> And my apologies for the next
>>> meeting. I have a long day ahead
>>> on
>>> Wednesday (Sydney time) and taking
>>> calls at 2.00am won't help.
>>> So Ill read
>>> the transcript and be back in a
>>> fortnight (2 weeks for those who
>>> do not use
>>> the term)
>>>
>>> Holly
>>>
>>> On 16/01/2014, at 5:39 AM, Jim
>>> Bikoff wrote:
>>>
>>> Don and all,
>>>
>>> As we suggested earlier, and
>>> discussed in the last Group
>>> teleconference, it might be
>>> helpful, as a next step, if we
>>> reached a
>>> consensus on the groups of
>>> questions before sending them out to
>>> SO/ACs and SG/Cs.
>>>
>>> This would involve two steps:
>>> First, agreeing on the name of each
>>> group; and second, streamlining
>>> the questions in each group.
>>>
>>> In the first step, we could
>>> consider alternative headings
>>> (perhaps
>>> REGISTRATION instead of
>>>MAINTENANCE).
>>>
>>> And in the second step, we could
>>> remove duplicative or vague
>>> questions.
>>>
>>> This crystallization would make
>>> the questions more approachable,
>>> and
>>> encourage better responses.
>>>
>>> I hope these ideas are helpful.
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> Jim
>>>
>>> James L. Bikoff
>>> Silverberg, Goldman & Bikoff, LLP
>>> 1101 30th Street, NW
>>> Suite 120
>>> Washington, DC 20007
>>> Tel: 202-944-3303
>>> Fax: 202-944-3306
>>> jbikoff at sgbdc.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> From: Don Blumenthal
>>> <dblumenthal at pir.org>
>>> Date: January 14, 2014 11:09:23 AM
>>> EST
>>> To: PPSAI
>>> <gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg at icann.org>
>>> Subject: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg]
>>> Carlton's closing chat question
>>> Carlton posted an issue that
>>> shouldn¹t wait a week:
>>>
>>> ³John came up with 4 groups. Do we
>>> have a notion that others
>>> might be extracted? And where do
>>> we include/modify questions
>>> to address Stephanie's issue?"
>>>
>>> Jim had four groups and an
>>> umbrella Main category, which may be
>>> instructive in itself in guiding
>>> how we proceed
>>> organizationally. Regardless, the
>>> consensus of commenters has
>>> been that his document is a
>>> significant improvement over where
>>> we were before, and I suggest that
>>> we use it as a baseline.
>>> However, we still have work to do
>>> on it. Feel free to suggest
>>> modifications.
>>>
>>> Don
>>>
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>>>
>>> --
>>> Dr. Robert Bruen
>>> Cold Rain Labs
>>> http://coldrain.net/bruen
>>> +1.802.579.6288
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>
>
>--
>Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
>
>Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
>
>Volker A. Greimann
>- Rechtsabteilung -
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>
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