[Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] For review - updated templates Cat B, questions 1 and 2

Stephanie Perrin stephanie.perrin at mail.utoronto.ca
Sat Mar 1 16:45:30 UTC 2014 

Thanks, clearly I need new glasses.  I am even more confused now though....that is a very circular definition of illegal activity, but it seems to focus on use of a domain name prohibited by applicable law.  So does a law prohibiting, for instance, the trafficking of illegal drugs, have to have a clause in it specifically prohibiting sale over the INternet for this to kick in?  And who is a quasi-governmental body? and are there policy regulations that stipulate exactly what reasonable action a registrar, operating an abuse contact point, is supposed to take?  I am comforted by the line stating that the registrar does not have to break the law to do this, but a bit of clarity about exactly what they must do would be welcome to newbies such as myself.  It looks as if they just have to publish what they do, and keep all records.  I am sorry to ask these basic questions, but I find, from a data protection perspective, these procedures to be remarkably one-sided in favor of investigation, less so on the data protection side.  Doubtless the data retention requirements act in favour of innocent, law abiding registrants, in cases where their website or data has been misused, but it is still remarkably intrusive. 
Apologies for all the naive questions.
Stephanie
> Hi Stephanie,
> 
> Sure -- it's actually Section 3.18, here (sub-sections 3.18.1 and 3.18.2, primarily). It's most helpful to read it in conjunction with Section 1.13.  
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> John Horton
> President, LegitScript
>  
> 
> Follow LegitScript: LinkedIn  |  Facebook  |  Twitter  |  YouTube  |  Blog  |  Google+
> 
> 
> On Fri, Feb 28, 2014 at 8:10 PM, Stephanie Perrin <stephanie.perrin at mail.utoronto.ca> wrote:
> Sorry, but I can’t seem to find any 3.1.8 on the version on the ICANN website.  Admittedly, the numbering in that document is pretty confusing…would you mind citing the section to which you refer in your last paragraph  (train having left station).
> SP
> 
> On Feb 28, 2014, at 10:39 PM, Tim Ruiz <tim at godaddy.com> wrote:
> 
>> So to make your invsetigation of 150 cases easier (which I question in any event) millions of users are needlessly  hassled. Makes perfect sense in today's world I guess.
>> 
>> Tim
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Feb 28, 2014, at 5:32 PM, "John Horton" <john.horton at legitscript.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> Hi all,
>>> 
>>> Verification and re-verification of registration data would be enormously useful and important in identifying, mapping and deterring malfeasance. Just to share our background to put our comments in context, we've assisted in over 150 drug or supplement investigations by conducting cybercrime research, and each project typically involved research into dozens, hundreds or even thousands of Whois records plus corresponding IP/NS/MX etc. information. There are numerous instances in which either 1) the accurate Whois data (including, accurate data behind a Whois privacy/proxy service) "broke open" the case, or 2) submitting a WDRPS complaint in instances where we could show that the Whois data was inaccurate resulted in modified Whois information that then "broke open" the case, either by virtue of the modified Whois information itself, or from derivative information (e.g., additional reverse queries on Whois, name server, IP address or other records). Keep in mind too that sometimes showing that the Whois record is falsified results in the suspension of the domain name, which also has the effect of stopping the harmful use of that particular domain name. Verification would result in some instances of inaccurate registration data becoming accurate, or alternatively, of discontinuing registration services.
>>> 
>>> In the interests of brevity, I hope that summary is enough explanation, but if anyone still doesn't understand how (or agree that) verified registration data -- or by extension, verification and some sort of periodic re-verification -- is useful, I'm happy to provide a couple of real life examples of investigations we've worked on where either the a) accuracy of the Whois record or b) response to the inaccuracy finding was extremely useful, although I'll modify the domain names. Again, I'm happy to provide real-life examples, with redacted information. It's not just occasionally or mildly useful. It's enormously important. 
>>> 
>>> One additional point: keep in mind that when researching criminal networks, there are typically multiple (hundreds or even thousands) of domain names at play, and even if -- as Tim pointed out -- the verified email and phone number have nothing to do with the person's real identity, good cybercrime research across the thousands of Whois records can often result in derivative information pointing to the real identity of the criminal entities. 
>>> 
>>> As to the point that the domain name isn't harmful but the content may be, I suspect that there are minds that won't be changed in this group on both sides of that argument. :) But, I'd point out that that train has left the station, so to speak: Section 3.18 of the 2013 RAA clearly contemplates harmful use of a domain name. 
>>> 
>>> Thanks, 
>>> 
>>> John Horton
>>> President, LegitScript
>>>  
>>> 
>>> Follow LegitScript: LinkedIn  |  Facebook  |  Twitter  |  YouTube  |  Blog  |  Google+
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Fri, Feb 28, 2014 at 12:36 PM, Tim Ruiz <tim at godaddy.com> wrote:
>>> It doesn't. I can use perfectly good information, including a verifiable phone number and email address, that has nothing to do with who I really am. As we have tried to argue before, unsuccessfully, is that all verification does is push the "miscreants" to be better at obfiscating who they are (and it just isn't that hard). As you said, it only results in making it difficult for everyone for the acts of a few.
>>> 
>>> Tim
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Feb 28, 2014, at 2:07 PM, "Stephanie Perrin" <stephanie.perrin at mail.utoronto.ca> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> My apologies I totally mis-read that. So how does verification catch that then?
>>>> On 2014-02-28, at 1:52 PM, John Horton wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> Well, because absent an accurate Whois record, it can be difficult to know who to hold accountable.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Stephanie, to clarify: I was saying that 95% of Whois data in a certain sub-category of criminal or miscreant behavior (spam, malware, phishing) is inaccurate (not "accurate"). 
>>>>> 
>>>>> John Horton
>>>>> President, LegitScript
>>>>>  
>>>>> 
>>>>> Follow LegitScript: LinkedIn  |  Facebook  |  Twitter  |  YouTube  |  Blog  |  Google+
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Fri, Feb 28, 2014 at 9:44 AM, Stephanie Perrin <stephanie.perrin at mail.utoronto.ca> wrote:
>>>>> I agree, it is all about risk...but what risk are we really talking about?   I dont understand why a P/P provider should be forced to take on more risk than other registrars.  Further,why should the registrar be accountable for verified data, once the original data verification is done.  If John is correct and in 95% of cases the data from the P/P service provider was proven accurate, then how does any amount of data verification solve the problem?  The accountability for miscreant behaviour of all kinds rests with the domain name user.  IF the data is inaccurate, ramp up the penalties if it can be shown that the data was rendered inaccurate for the purposes of fraudulent activity.  
>>>>> At the risk of sounding overly philosophical, It seems to me that the Internet ecosystem is somehow being held to account for the actions of individuals.  It is the individuals that should be held to account.  Not the domain name, or the company that issued it. Particularly, I think that if products sold are tainted, then there is plenty of other consumer protection law that applies...why are we trying to solve that problem?  
>>>>> Cheers Stephanie perrin
>>>>> 
>>>>> On 2014-02-28, at 12:29 PM, Carlton Samuels wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> ..which seems to me all about risk management on part of the provider.  Its the results that matter.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> So, for all the possible permutations, in line with those enumerated by Volker, might it not be more useful to refer 'verified credentials' as a requirement on the provider, allow them to accept the business risk and leave it to them to decide how to do it.......and, inherently, the risks acceptable to them for provisioning the service?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> -Carlton 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> ==============================
>>>>>> Carlton A Samuels
>>>>>> Mobile: 876-818-1799
>>>>>> Strategy, Planning, Governance, Assessment & Turnaround
>>>>>> =============================
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Fri, Feb 28, 2014 at 6:29 AM, Volker Greimann <vgreimann at key-systems.net> wrote:
>>>>>> Hi John, 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I am having a bit of a hard time understanding your point here.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> You are describing three different cases here, two of which will not benefit from verification in the least bit and one might, but only in some cases:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> a) The data is accurate, but stolen: Here verification would not uncover any issues with the data as it is essentially correct and will most likely  be identified as accurate.
>>>>>> b) The data is false: Here, depending on the methods used, the inaccuracy may be uncovered and would lead to an automated request to provide updated data or deactivation after a set time. Remember, in order to keep providing services in a sensible manner, this needs to be automated in some form, i.e. no individual record would likely see any manual review.
>>>>>> c) The data is already accurate: If the data is already correct, what purpose does verification fulfill?  The data cannot become more accurate. Verification in this case seems like an exercise in self-gratification.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> That said, even if there is a benefit to be derived from verification, such benefits are achieved once verification concludes. Re-verification of already verified data fulfills no purpose whatsoever. So if a set of data has already been verified by the registrar, there is no need for the p/p provider to again verify the same data. Only if no verification is or can be performed on the registrar level does verification by providers come into play.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Volker
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Am 28.02.2014 00:32, schrieb John Horton:
>>>>>>> Thanks, Marika. I also wanted to provide a comment pertaining to Question 2 in the attachments (relating to periodic checks).
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> In a few of the recent discussions, there's been some reference to criminals always or nearly always being untruthful in their Whois records (even if privacy-protected), leading to the conclusion that there is little purpose in having a registrar or any third party have to verify or re-verify the information (especially if it is difficult to prove that the data is falsified). I wanted to share our experience and observations on that point, in the hope that it's relevant to future discussion regarding Question 2.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Our consistent observation has been that when it comes to a particular sub-category of criminal activity, spam, phishing, malware, and so forth, it's probably safe to say that that statement is true -- the registrant's Whois information is nearly always inaccurate. Even in cases, such as some where we've worked with law enforcement, when the Whois record for a domain name involved in spam, phishing or malware is privacy-protected and is subsequently unmasked, the Whois record is still not accurate behind the privacy curtain. There are probably exceptions, but that's what we've seen well over 95% of the time. On occasion, it's a real address and phone number, just not one genuinely connected to the registrant. 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> But there are other types of criminal activity where the Whois record is not so regularly obfuscated. For example, we investigate a lot of websites selling tainted dietary supplements that end up containing some toxin or adulterant that harms people. In those cases, we've overwhelmingly seen that even if the Whois record is privacy-protected, the trend is that the underlying Whois record is accurate. The same has been true for illegal or counterfeit medical device websites that we've researched. On illegal Internet pharmacies not engaged in spam, it's probably 50-50. (It might be a shell corporation, but that's still valuable information.)
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> One important point to consider is that the Whois registration can be relevant information from a banking perspective for commercial entities. That is, some banks are going to look at an online merchant's domain name registration record and if it's either inaccurate or protected, they may require disclosure, or ask about any discrepancy, which can be an incentive for criminals selling products online who nevertheless want to get paid via credit card to have an accurate Whois. Hackers, malware providers and spammers will find a way around that, but they don't necessarily constitute "most" criminal activity.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> The point here is, I think verification can still be a useful and necessary tool in either scenario, even if it doesn't uncover useful information a portion of the time. I realize that only pertains to a portion of the issues related to Question 2, but I hope that our observations on that are relevant. 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Thanks, 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> John Horton
>>>>>>> President, LegitScript
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Follow LegitScript: LinkedIn  |  Facebook  |  Twitter  |  YouTube  |  Blog  |  Google+
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Wed, Feb 26, 2014 at 2:39 AM, Marika Konings <marika.konings at icann.org> wrote:
>>>>>>> Dear All,
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Following our call yesterday, please find attached the updated templates for Category B – questions 1 & 2. Please review these templates to make sure the WG discussions have been accurately reflected and feel free to share any comments / edits you may have with the mailing list. We've created a page on the wiki where we'll post the templates that have been finalised for now (noting that for some of these the WG will need to come back to the template at a later date), see https://community.icann.org/x/ihLRAg. 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> The WG will continue its deliberations on Category B – Question 2 next week. Some of the questions that came up during the conversation yesterday and which you are encouraged to share your views on (and/or add additional questions that need to be considered in this context) are:
>>>>>>> What would be the arguments for not using the same standards / requirements for validation and verification as per the 2013 RAA?
>>>>>>> Should there be a requirement for re-verification, and if so, what instances would trigger such re-verification?
>>>>>>> In case of affliction between the P/P service and the registrar, if the registration information has already been verified by the registrar, should this exempt the P/P provider from doing so?
>>>>>>> Should the same requirements apply to privacy and proxy services or is there a reason to distinguish between the two?
>>>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Marika
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg mailing list
>>>>>>> Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg at icann.org
>>>>>>> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
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>>>>>> 
>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>> Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Volker A. Greimann
>>>>>> - Rechtsabteilung -
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Key-Systems GmbH
>>>>>> Im Oberen Werk 1
>>>>>> 66386 St. Ingbert
>>>>>> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
>>>>>> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
>>>>>> Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net
>>>>>> www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:
>>>>>> www.facebook.com/KeySystems
>>>>>> www.twitter.com/key_systems
>>>>>> 
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>>>>>> Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
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>>>>>> 
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>>>>>> 
>>>>>> --------------------------------------------
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Volker A. Greimann
>>>>>> - legal department -
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Key-Systems GmbH
>>>>>> Im Oberen Werk 1
>>>>>> 66386 St. Ingbert
>>>>>> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
>>>>>> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
>>>>>> Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net
>>>>>> www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:
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>>>>>> www.twitter.com/key_systems
>>>>>> 
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>>>>>> Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken 
>>>>>> V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
>>>>>> www.keydrive.lu 
>>>>>> 
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>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
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>>>>> 
>>>>> 
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