[Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] MP3 PPSAI WG - Tuesday 13 May 2014 at 1400 UTC

Terri Agnew terri.agnew at icann.org
Tue May 13 16:23:36 UTC 2014

Dear All,


Please find the MP3 recording for the Privacy and Proxy Services
Accreditation Issues PDP Working group call held on Tuesday 13 May 2014 at
14:00 UTC at:




On page: 



The recordings and transcriptions of the calls are posted on the GNSO Master
Calendar page:

 <http://gnso.icann.org/calendar/> http://gnso.icann.org/calendar/



Luc Seufer - RrSG

Tim Ruiz - RrSG

Steve Metalitz - IPC

Kathy Kleiman - RySG

Darcy Southwell - RrSG

Justin Macy - BC

David Heasley - IPC

James Bladel - RrSG

Phil Marano - IPC

Christian Dawson - ISPCP

Griffin Barnett - IPC

Alex Deacon - IPC

Laura Jedeed - BC

Sarah Wyld - RrSG

Holly Raiche - ALAC

Tatiana Khramstova -  RrSG

John Horton - BC

Jim Bikoff - IPC

Don Blumenthal - RySG

Roy Balleste - NCUC

Kiran Malancharuvil - IPC

Volker Greimann - RrSG

Libby Baney - BC

Michele Neylon - RrSG

Chris Pelling - RrSG

Frank Michlick - RrSG

Stephanie Perrin - NCSG

David Cake - NCSG

Valeriya Sherman - IPC




Graeme Bunton - RrSG

Amr Elsadr - NCUC

Susan Prosser- RrSG

Tobias Sattler - RrSG

Don Moody - IPC


ICANN staff:

Marika Konings

Mary Wong

Amy Bivins

Joe Catapano 

Nathalie Peregrine


** Please let me know if your name has been left off the list **


Mailing list archives:



Wiki page:

 <https://community.icann.org/x/9iCfAg> https://community.icann.org/x/9iCfAg


Thank you.

Kind regards,

Terri Agnew




 Adobe Connect chat transcript for Tuesday 13 May 2014: 

  Terri Agnew:Dear all, welcome to the PPSAI WG call on the 13th May 2014

  Bladel:Dialing in...

  Terri Agnew:Luc Seufer has joined

  Terri Agnew:James I have added you to attendance list

Kathy K:Tx Don!

  Terri Agnew:Frank Michlick has joined

  Terri Agnew:Justin Macy has joined

  Frank Michlick:Sorry - just watching a the moment still in a call.

  Terri Agnew:Phil Marano has joined

  Kiran Malancharuvil:I think it's still a mischaracterization to call it an
overwhelming majority, especially since a lot of the voices are in the same
SG.  If you are going to throw around the term consensus, we need to
actually parse out who (and what SG or C) is saying what.  

  Kiran Malancharuvil:and that goes for both "sides" of the issue

  Don Blumenthal:More than one group has a lot of voices in favor of No

  Kiran Malancharuvil:and more than one group has a lot of Yes's or please
explore DOn

  John Horton:Don, I'd agree with Kiran. I think "consensus" generally means
"no significant disagreement." I wouldn't say that's the case here. 

  Don Blumenthal:Definitions of "consensus" don't have the consensus you

  Kiran Malancharuvil:I especially think it's inappropriate to call
consensus before we explored Libby's good work which was circulated in
response to a request for information last week.  

  Terri Agnew:Stephanie Perrin has joined

  Michele Neylon:This is out of scope

  Michele Neylon:ICANN is not a consumer protection agency

  John Horton:Merriam-Webster defines "consensus" as: : a general agreement
about something : an idea or opinion that is shared by all the people in a

  Michele Neylon:John - GNSO has consensus defined

  John Horton:Ah -- link to definition?

  Marika Konings:@John - in the GNSO context, consensus is defined as
'Consensus - a position where only a small minority disagrees, but most

  John Horton:Ah, thanks. 

  Michele Neylon:John - Marika can give you a link

  Marika Konings:this is contained in the GNSO Operating Procedures (Annex 1
- GNSO WG Guidelines)

  Marika Konings:I'll dig out the link now

  Kiran Malancharuvil:Thanks to IOC/RCRC, I'm well aware of the GNSO
definition and still don't think it's appropriate in this context

  John Horton:Right. I appreciate the definition, but I agree it shouldn't
be a consensus. 

pdf - section 3.6 Standard Methodology for Making Decisions

  Chris Pelling:Totally agree

  Stephanie Perrin:+1 Michele

  Marika Konings:And just for the record, I'm not suggesting that there is
or isn't consensus according to the definition ;-)

  Kiran Malancharuvil:The AoC demands accountability to consumers 

  Marika Konings:The process for making that determination is also outlined
in that same section, by the way.

  Chris Pelling:Michele hit the nail on the head, we are here to define, not
to state "who" and "who doesnt" / cant use it

  Libby Baney:Good point Don re GNSO charter

  Libby Baney:Yes, you're right - the paper addresses commercial "activity"
not commercial "entities"

  Bladel:Can someone show me in our Charter where we are authorized to
create policy regarding content of website(s)?  

  Don Blumenthal:I will not in the margins that not all domains have web
sites. How can/should their purposes be determined by outside review

  Luc Seufer:@Bladel can we extend that question to ICANN by-laws?

  Kathy K:Threshold question revisited: Currently, proxy/privacy services
are available to companies, noncommercial organizations and individuals.
Should there be any change to this aspect of the current system in the new
accreditation standards?

  Don Blumenthal:Content isn't in our remit; category issues and how they
might work are.

  Michele Neylon:So how the hell are we meant to know what our clients do
with their email?

  Michele Neylon:assuming the domain is only for email 

  Bladel:Indeed.  Why does spam still exist?

  Don Blumenthal:I asked you first. :)

  Michele Neylon:Bladel - well I may have found a way of monetising that :)

  Terri Agnew:David Cake has joined

  Kiran Malancharuvil:possibly on mute... 

  Kiran Malancharuvil:having computer issues

  Kiran Malancharuvil:will call in, no worries please move on

  David Cake:My apologies for turning up so late. 

  Kathy K:+1 Holly

  David Cake:FWIW, I'm a pretty strong no on C2. 

  Terri Agnew:Val Sherman has joined

  John Horton:+1 on Kiran's comments. 

  Libby Baney:+1 to Kiran

  Kiran Malancharuvil:I also do not think it's a "massive waste of time" 

  Libby Baney:@Kathy - I agree, more time would be valuable

  Libby Baney:@kathy - we intended to address the sole/mom&pop businesses in
the paper. Happy to have more discussion on this point

  Kathy K:But Libby - commercial groups use proxy/privacy services

  Kathy K:They have since the beginning, and they use their lawyers in huge

  Kathy K:(for registration of domain names)

  Kiran Malancharuvil:@James - a question for the ages.  we've been trying
for outreach on so many issues!

  Kathy K:Why are the deemed unworthy now?

  Justin Macy:Re: Scope.   Each GNSO question in our charter uses the "using
the domain name for [X]" syntax. I don't see a way to read the use of the
domain name out of our remit.

  Kiran Malancharuvil:I would support that Steve.  Commercial entities
should be allowed to use p/p for non-commercial purposes 

  John Horton:Steve, don't want to jump the queue, but happy to suggest an
answer there based on the paper.

  Libby Baney:@Steve re timing of distinction, see page 26-27 of the paper

  Libby Baney:@John, feel free to chime in

  Libby Baney:@Stephanie - I'd welcome and appreciate your edits. You've
been very helpful o these issues

  Kiran Malancharuvil:Why would we be uncomfortable with research presented
(in response to a request)

  Kiran Malancharuvil:and can you please submit your response rather than
just ask for it to be taken off the table? 

  Kathy K:Steve, could you please share again the view of the IPC or CSG
that you posted at the end of meeting last week (in the chat room, I think)

  Bladel:@Don - Agree.

  Kiran Malancharuvil:There hasn't been a consensus developed in the IPC
that I'm aware of 

  Stephanie Perrin:Unfortunately, being free to submit anything, means we
are going to spend the rest of our lives here.

  Bladel:But then the paper(s) should be treated on par with any ohter
comment submitted to the list.

  steve metalitz:Agree with Don that contributions like the paper are
welcomed.  Although I do not agree with its conclusions.  

  Bladel:which was my opnion.

  Stephanie Perrin:To what extent does ICANN have ambitions to regulate all
activity on the internet

  Libby Baney:@John - agreed, welcome feedback

  steve metalitz:The IPC osition is set forth in the template for C1.  

  Libby Baney:@all - re the paper being "dropped" on the group, I just want
to note for the record that the group essentially gave us a week to provide
argument as to why the distinction is worthwhile... we got the paper out as
fast as possible in response to last week's discussion

  Kathy K:Tx Steve

  John Horton:Right -- I should have mentioned that as well, Libby. 

  Kiran Malancharuvil:It's REALLY disturbing the level of hyperbole that
exists here in an effort to attempt to silence discussion on this issue (and
it would be disturbing on any issue).  "We will be here for the rest of our
lives" or we are attempting to "regulate all activity" 

  Kiran Malancharuvil:discussion, in the form of a papers or discussion
should ALWAYS be welcome 

  Kiran Malancharuvil:that's the nature of ICANN

  Kiran Malancharuvil:+1 Libby...  what a shame that you were asked to
provide it and then chastised for following through

  Libby Baney:@thanks for the support Kiran

  Stephanie Perrin:Frankly, Idont regard regulate all activity as hyperbole.
AS MIchele said earlier, determining the ongoing purpose and use of domain
names or email used by registrants strikes me as an interminable exercise,
new every morning as it were.  So given that task falling on the shoulders
of the registrars, either they give up on that line of business, or they
lose money providing the purpose detection function.  

  Don Blumenthal:Kiran, overstatement is part of the process from all sides
in any contentioius ICANN 

  Don Blumenthal:discussion

  Kiran Malancharuvil:I understand that Don, but that doesn't mean I have to
be okay with it.  

  Don Blumenthal:Stephanie and John, please clear your raised hands.

  John Horton:Oops. Thanks, Don. 

  Michele Neylon:Why would we reveal to an out of jurisdiction request?

  Michele Neylon:respond - sure

  Val Sherman:+1 @Steve

  Michele Neylon:but I don't see why I should give the Chinese government my
clients' details

  Michele Neylon:or did I mishear him?

  Luc Seufer:because there may be another ICANN meeting held in China in the
future. And we don't want to lose our chair

  Luc Seufer:;-)

  Don Blumenthal:I appreciate it. :)

  Bladel:California? :)

  Luc Seufer:The UK?

  steve metalitz:we're talking here about whether they respond ,not whether
they answer yes.  That will be a topic for e.g. reveal.  

  Kathy K:Is there any concern or opposition to posting a point of contact
to the world for p/p contact?

  Kathy K:Tx All

  Luc Seufer:Thanks

  David Cake:Thank you Don, and everyone. 

  Michele Neylon:kathy - short answer - no

  Darcy Southwell:Thank you!


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