[Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] MP3 PPSAI WG - Tuesday 20 May 2014 at 1400 UTC

Terri Agnew terri.agnew at icann.org
Tue May 20 21:10:04 UTC 2014

Dear All,


Please find the MP3 recording for the Privacy and Proxy Services
Accreditation Issues PDP Working group call held on Tuesday 20 May 2014 at
14:00 UTC at:




On page: 



The recordings and transcriptions of the calls are posted on the GNSO Master
Calendar page:

 <http://gnso.icann.org/calendar/> http://gnso.icann.org/calendar/



Tim Ruiz - RrSG

Steve Metalitz - IPC

Kathy Kleiman - RySG

Justin Macy - BC

James Bladel - RrSG

Griffin Barnett - IPC

Alex Deacon - IPC

Laura Jedeed - BC

Sarah Wyld - RrSG

Holly Raiche - ALAC

John Horton - BC

Roy Balleste - NCUC

Kiran Malancharuvil - IPC

Volker Greimann - RrSG

Libby Baney - BC

Michele Neylon - RrSG

Chris Pelling - RrSG

Stephanie Perrin - NCSG

David Cake - NCSG

Valeriya Sherman - IPC

Susan Prosser- RrSG

Phil Marano - IPC

Paul McGrady - IPC

Jennifer Standiford - RrSG

Kristina Rosette - IPC

Brian Winterfeldt - IPC

Christian Dawson - ISPCP

Osvaldo Novoa - ISPCP

Don Moody - IPC



Graeme Bunton - RrSG

Darcy Southwell - RrSG

Amr Elsadr - NCUC

Tobias Sattler - RrSG

Don Blumenthal - RySG

Maria Farrell - NCUC



ICANN staff:

Marika Konings

Amy Bivins

Joe Catapano 

Terri Agnew


** Please let me know if your name has been left off the list **


Mailing list archives:



Wiki page:

 <https://community.icann.org/x/9iCfAg> https://community.icann.org/x/9iCfAg


Thank you.

Kind regards,

Terri Agnew




 Adobe Connect chat transcript for Tuesday 20 May 2014: 

Marika Konings:Welcome to the PPSAI WG Meeting of 20 May 2014

  steve metalitz:awaiting entry to audio bridge

  Paul McGrady:Good morning!

  Marika Konings:Same here...

  John Horton:Morning, all.

  Bladel:Wiating on the operator....

  Val Sherman:good morning all

  Tim Ruiz:Good morning

  Michele Neylon:waiting .. 

  Kathy K:Morning All!

  Kiran Malancharuvil:I'm on audio now too

  Terri Agnew:Kristina Rosette has joined

  Terri Agnew:David Cake has joined

  Terri Agnew:Brian Winterfeldt has joined

  Kiran Malancharuvil:I propose we use the GNSO guidelines to determine the
level of consensus and the terms that the GNSO as carefully constructed

  Kiran Malancharuvil:Do NOT agree that leaving such a strong phrase in as a
"placeholder" is appropriate.  Sorry. 

  Marika Konings:the GNSO WG Guidelines use the term 'most agree' or 'most
support' - would that work?

  Terri Agnew:Stephanie Perrin has joined

  Kiran Malancharuvil:Marika, I still think we need to have a better
determination of what the group really thinks first

  Kiran Malancharuvil:in addition to the language issue

  Volker Greimann:James+1, but we need a vote for that

  Kiran Malancharuvil:Because number of voices is not how consensus is

  John Horton:Marika, I would concur with Kiran that it would be ideal to
use the GNSO guidelinesn to assess the level of support.

  John Horton:And I think we do need to have a better sense of exactly where
the group is.

  Bladel:Not a vote necessarily, but a consensus test.

  Volker Greimann:fully agreed

  Bladel:ANd this particularl quesiton needs to be opened up to a larger
audience (outside of ICANN, the consumers of these services.)

  Volker Greimann:We should use the correct terminology, when we know where
we are

  Terri Agnew:Roy Balleste has joined

  Marika Konings:All, I've posted the relevant language from the GNSO
Working Group Guidelines on the right hand side

  Kiran Malancharuvil:I don't think it matters in what context it's being
used.  It's still not an appropriate term

  Marika Konings:The WG Guidelines also explain the process that is
typically use to make a determination (which normally does NOT include

  Michele Neylon:just delete the term "overwhelming" and move on

  Kristina Rosette:To be clear, I'm not suggesting we vote.  I am suggesting
that we ensure that all WG members who want to weigh in have done so or have
indicated that their positions are still under development.

  Kiran Malancharuvil:No, because majority is also not potentially accurate

  Terri Agnew:Phil Marano has joined

  Michele Neylon:This is a massive waste of time

  Michele Neylon:we're 20 minutes into this call and we're arguing over two

  Michele Neylon:in a single paragraph

  Alex Deacon:@michele +1 delete the term and move on.  

  Kiran Malancharuvil:Not to us Michele, and frankly I'm getting sick of you
labeling things that you don't feel are important as a waste of time.  

  Michele Neylon:or put it to a vote

  Tim Ruiz:A consensus of WG members believed that proxy/privacy services
should be available to all entities.

  Kiran Malancharuvil:It's not respectful in this environment. 

  Kristina Rosette:Do we have consensus (sorry) that we should replace
overwhelming majority with the corresponding consensus characterization.

  Kiran Malancharuvil:@Kristina, it's too early to determine consensus

  Michele Neylon:Maybe just put it to a vote

  Michele Neylon:or put brackets around the entire thing until we can put it
to a vote

  Kristina Rosette:@Kiran: Got it.  Perhaps we should bracket text that
needs to be revisited.

  Kiran Malancharuvil:Probably a good idea, but don't want to include terms
that may sway the issues in one direction or another

  Val Sherman:+1 Kristina

  Terri Agnew:Christian Dawson has joined

  Kathy K:Should there be a difference in the data fields to be displayed if
the domain name is registered or used by a commercial entity? - is that your
recommended rewording, Steve?

  steve metalitz:@Kathy, Yes for initial discussion.  

  Michele Neylon:Kathy's snubbing me? :)

  Chris Pelling:Or as Mochele pointed out where does it start, where will it
end,, ie what other "fields" will be worked into a whois service that
already cant cope and is still not totally standard

  Chris Pelling:@Kathy you will have lots of additional fields - I think
personally this is something that should not be added

  Holly Raiche:@Kathy +1

  Tim Ruiz:I think at best, we could only recommend considering this or that
the next time a WHOIS PDP or other WG considers changes to WHOIS. P/P
services cannot enforce anything in the WHOIS.

  Chris Pelling:@Tim +1

  Bladel:Agree with Kathy.  

  Chris Pelling:@Kathy +1

  Bladel:This is about how PP services use WHOIS, 

  Bladel:THey do not control output.

  Tim Ruiz:Kathy is correct.

  Terri Agnew:Osvaldo Novoa has joined

  Bladel:So a "partial" proxy?

  Bladel:I don't agree with leaving "hints" in WHOIS.

  Bladel:or if they have an SSL cert

  Libby Baney:I don't agree with Michele's assumption that people don't use
WHOIS, rather just rely on the About Us/Contact section of a website. As
noted in the paper I circulated,  WHOIS is an important  mechanism for
consumers -- and having transparent WHOIS is consistent with the AoC for
consumer trust

  Kiran Malancharuvil:WHOIS is an extremeley important tool for consumer

  Bladel:aka "net vigiliantes"

  Tim Ruiz:John, what does that have to do with C3?

  Stephanie Perrin:I would like to see the consumer research that supports
the assertion that whois is actually being used extensively by consumers for
consumer protection.  I understand that governments who have not regulated
e-commerce rely on it, but I have not found  those studies indicating the
average consumer is using it,  I did check with a couple of my contacts in
consumer affairs  here isn Canada. 

  Tim Ruiz:Kiran, waht 

  Kathy K:+1 James, I was just looking for the Whois Review Team report

  Kathy K:It would be useful for us now. 

  Kiran Malancharuvil:@Tim, are you asking me a question? 

  Tim Ruiz:Sorry. Kiran, what does that have to do with C3?

  David Cake:There are a number of commercial services that might be legal
in their jurisdiction, providing services as described, but controversial
enough to want to use privacy or proxy services to deter harrassment. 

  Kiran Malancharuvil:@Tim, it was in response to what was being discussed
by John and MIchele 

  Tim Ruiz:Ok, thanks.

  Kathy K:"Overall, awareness of WHOIS is low. When asked to find a website
domain owner, most Users do not think to utilize the WHOIS site."  - from
Whois Review Team commissioned outside study

 Laura Jedeed:+1 Kiran

  Stephanie Perrin:+1 Kathy!

  Tim Ruiz:what is th 

  Susan Prosser:+1 Kiran

  Tim Ruiz:Sorry again. What is the problem we are trying to solve? Why is
commercial use of a private name bad?

  Tim Ruiz:No.

  Michele Neylon:Tim - cos it's um .. 

  Michele Neylon:oh I don't know

  Michele Neylon:Kathy - thanks for that quote

  Kathy K:@Tim, I don't think commercial use is bad, nor do I see the vast
majority of commercial users engaged directly with consumers. Most business
use is business-to-business which is governed by entirely different rules.

  Kiran Malancharuvil:@Tim, I think the white paper might be worth reading
if you're still unclear about why consumer protection advocates like myself
are advocating our position

  Kathy K:+1 Volker - domain names are multi-use, and available for so many
uses: listserves, FTP, websites, emails.... 

  Stephanie Perrin:Excellent point Volker, re assets in bankruptcy.

  Kiran Malancharuvil:End use consumers still have a right to know who
isbehind the B2B transactions.  For example, I have a right to know who
makes the processor in my computer even if they refuse to sell it directly
to me.  

  Kathy K:@Kiran: I have no idea who Fios/Verizon buys its fiber optic cable
from - although it serves my house - and they would never let me see those

  Volker Greimann:Kiran: Then go to your local government and ask them to
legislate a requirement to put an imprint on the webpage

  Kiran Malancharuvil:but you would have the right to find out

  Volker Greimann:It worked VERY well in Europe

  Kathy K:+1 Tim

  Libby Baney:@Tim -- I think there is a difference between using a p/p
service vs providing different (but transparent) contact information for
domain names engaged in commercial activities

  Volker Greimann:no imprint on the page, don't do business

  Kiran Malancharuvil:@Volker, are you suggesting that I have no place in
THIS process? 

  Volker Greimann:not at all, but I am arguing that the right to know who
you are doing business with belongs on the webpage, not the whois

  Kiran Malancharuvil:I disagree, and I have that right, and in my opinion,
the obligation

  Libby Baney:@Volker -- how does that position square with the AoC?

  Kiran Malancharuvil:The respect level for divergent opinions in this group
is so low.  

  Kiran Malancharuvil:It's very discouraging.  

  Kathy K:@Libby, I think it does square with the AOC

Volker Greimann:as the AoC is on the way out, we will have to see...

  Tim Ruiz:Kiran, disagreement is not disrespect.

  Stephanie Perrin:The AoC does not and must not substitute for  normal
regulatory activity of governments.  

  Kiran Malancharuvil:The tone of the disagreement is what I'm addressing

  Bladel:Didn't we have some other homework regarding Transfers & other

  Kathy K:Because final answers were not mandated by the AOC. 

  Paul McGrady:Agree that a list of accredited providers makes sense.

  Volker Greimann:just checked, the AoC states: " enforcing its existing
policy". I see an emphasis on "existing" there

  Bladel:Responsiveness doesn't guarantee you'll get the answer you want. :)

  Michele Neylon:exactly

  Michele Neylon:"Can I buy your domain for 10 euro"

  Michele Neylon:no - get lost

  Michele Neylon:"weh weh - I don't like that reply"

  Michele Neylon::)

  Chris Pelling:and more importantly lsat week, an answer to general joe
may/will be different to that of LEA

  Chris Pelling:both in time and tone

  Michele Neylon:Chris - agreed

  Terri Agnew:Don Moody has joined

  Michele Neylon:An Garda Siochana tend to phone 

  Paul McGrady:I would like to hear more about the transfer issue than the 2
minutes remaining would allow today.  Can we get it on the list for next

  Michele Neylon:1 minute...

  Chris Pelling:Paul, just make sure we dont spend 20 minutes clarrifying
"wording" last week it was 1 word, this week 2 words...

  John Horton:James, very late response on the "net vigilantes" point --
keep in mind it is sometimes customers too, who (in my world) got a drug
that didn't work, and trying to figure out more information about the
website they ordered from! :) So not just vigilantees...

  Bladel:Agree.  Let's get it on the agenda for next time.

  Justin Macy:@Volker "Such existing policy requires that ICANN implement
measures to maintain timely, unrestricted and public access to accurate and
complete WHOIS information, including registrant, technical, billing, and
administrative contact information. ...   ICANN will organize a review of
WHOIS policy and its implementation to assess the extent to which WHOIS
policy is effective and its implementation meets the legitimate needs of law
enforcement and promotes consumer trust."

  Tim Ruiz:Thanks Steve! Bye all.

  Kathy K:Tx Steve and All!

  Bladel:thx all.




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