[Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] PPSAI WG -- questions for list
James M. Bladel
jbladel at godaddy.com
Fri May 23 20:06:13 UTC 2014
Hi folks. Just a couple of points I’d like to add to this thread….
1. The P/P customer/Registrant is not always a party to the commercial transaction occurring on the associated website. A good example of this would be a broader service like eBay or Amazon or Etsy that acts as a marketplace platform, and allows individual vendors to sell via dedicated sites or third-level domains (e.g. mystore.online-marketplace.tld). In this case, using any information from WHOIS to dispute a commercial transaction is misdirected, akin to my trying to get a refund for merchandise purchased from a store at my local shopping mall by looking up who pays their utility bill.
2. A domain name is not a critical component in any financial transaction. It does not serve the same role as a credit card merchant account or payment gateway (PayPal, Google Wallet, etc.), and those usually have separate mechanisms (and requirements) regarding disclosure of identities and resolving disputed transactions. These things can also be done in the absence of domain names (apps, numeric IPs, etc.)
Thanks—
J.
From: John Horton <john.horton at legitscript.com<mailto:john.horton at legitscript.com>>
Date: Friday, May 23, 2014 at 14:51
To: Chris Pelling <chris at netearth.net<mailto:chris at netearth.net>>
Cc: "gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg at icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg at icann.org>" <gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg at icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg at icann.org>>
Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] PPSAI WG -- questions for list
Thanks, Chris -- one point to correct or clarify (my fault for not being more clear in my email): in the second paragraph, I was trying to summarize what I understood to be other people's argument (that is, I was trying to summarize what I understood Volker, Michele, Stephanie and others to be positing), not making that argument myself. (I don't think that changes the point you were making, but thought I'd clarify regarding my second paragraph.)
John Horton
President, LegitScript
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On Fri, May 23, 2014 at 12:44 PM, Chris Pelling <chris at netearth.net<mailto:chris at netearth.net>> wrote:
HI Guys,
With respect to your point in your first paragraph John re: "website holds the info/whois uses PP", putting the full information on a website can mean the information cannot be data mined, certain techniques that stops automated tools from grabbing it. Whereas in WHOIS it can be data mined via simple parsing. I hope that helps ?
I think it is up to the individual registrant if they wish to place a PP service on the whois, either commercial or non commercial. As long as there are certain procedures in place that allows for LEA or court order to gain the proper whois information from the PP provider this is proper and above board - this still obviously needs to be debated and will no doubt be discussed later in this WG at some point or another.
I disagree with your point I think *correct me if wrong* you are trying to make in the second paragraph, it is not for us to lay down law - thats not in our remit, my point above makes perfect sense, and more importantly stops data harvesters out there should the commercial entity want too. I think this discussion will continue mind you, but I for one would allow the "registrant" to make the choice if they want to or not.
I'll allow others to continue the other paragraphs you mentioned.
Kind regards,
Chris
On 23/05/14 18:18, John Horton wrote:
But if one agrees that it's good policy for commercial-use websites to put the contact information accurately and transparently on the website, then why would it be bad policy to require the same in the domain name's Whois record? :) What would be the additional burden on a registrant to also provide the same accurate and transparent (non-p/p) information in the Whois record? (And, if they have to disclose the information on their website, why would they need to use privacy/proxy in the first place?)
Allow me to respond to a couple of policy arguments made in other emails on this thread. First, I think that the point that some people were trying to make -- please correct me if I'm misstating this -- is that the average Internet user doesn't know what "Whois" is; therefore, if we care about consumer protection or corporate transparency, the better policy is to require disclosure of that information in the content of the website, as the EU appears to require. This makes the information more readily and more easily available to Internet users, where a good or service is being sold on or via the website. Therefore (with direct relevance to our task), requiring commercial use-registrations to not use p/p is specious. Am I summarizing that portion of the argument correctly?
I'd ask the group to consider two contrary points: the AOC and how derivative use benefits consumer trust. First, the Affirmation of Commitments explicitly references law enforcement and consumer trust with reference to Whois in Section 9.3.1: "ICANN additionally commits to enforcing its existing policy relating to WHOIS...(which) requires that ICANN implement measures to maintain timely, unrestricted and public access to accurate and complete WHOIS information...(and at various intervals)...ICANN will organize a review of WHOIS policy and its implementation to assess the extent to which WHOIS policy is effective and its implementation meets the legitimate needs of law enforcement and promotes consumer trust." The point I'm making here is that there's already a recognition in ICANN policy that consumer trust and legitimate law enforcement needs are relevant objectives in setting Whois policy.
Second, in considering consumer trust, it's important to consider direct use and derivative use of Whois, and how both relate to consumer trust and law enforcement. I think that Volker, Stephanie and others are likely right that the average Internet user may not be familiar with Whois, and may not use it directly. (However, I would strongly argue that there are, indeed, average Internet users who do know what Whois is and occasionally look to see who has registered a domain name.) However, there are ample derivative benefits to consumer trust. Consider three examples:
1. The widely-used Web-of-Trust reputational plugin (mywot.com<http://mywot.com>). The direct user of the WOT plugin does not see the Whois data, but it is plain to see in the WOT forums that many of the reputational determinations are derived from information about truthful/accurate, inaccurate or protected Whois.
2. Credit card networks' and banks' risk assessments relating to merchant fraud. The cardholder does not see Whois records, but firms like ours help determine merchant risk rely in part on Whois to make that determination (e.g., also looking to see if the same Whois record is connected with other fraudulent commercial activity); the cardholder (consumer) is not directly accessing Whois, but benefits derivatively.
3. Monitoring services for search advertising or e-commerce for fraud or illegal activity. Here too, the customer does not directly access the Whois record, but derivatively benefits since Whois analysis is one component of verifying seller identification.
In any case, I'm making two intertwined points in this email. First, consumer trust is a recognized objective of Whois policy; and second, in evaluating how consumer trust is affected by Whois policy, we have to consider both direct and derivative use. The argument that few people directly use Whois, and therefore consumers aren't benefiting from it anyway (and therefore it's fine to allow p/p for commercial-use domain names), fails to account for the derivate ways in which consumers are protected via third-parties' use of Whois.
Cheers,
John Horton
President, LegitScript
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On Fri, May 23, 2014 at 2:40 AM, Michele Neylon - Blacknight <michele at blacknight.com<mailto:michele at blacknight.com>> wrote:
Volker
It’s a legal requirement under Irish law – it’s also why you get all my contact details in every single email I send including the company’s address and registered number. The Irish legislation is worded in such a way that it just makes sense to put it all out there in every electronic communication rather than risk falling foul of the law.
We’re also obliged to follow the EU legislation with respect to cookies (not the edible variety unfortunately) and the Irish DPA has pursued Irish companies who were not complying.
As for levels of consensus and how they are reached, I’d tend to agree with your characterisation of matters.
Regards
Michele
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Blacknight Solutions
Hosting & Colocation, Domains
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From: Volker Greimann [mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net>]
Sent: Friday, May 23, 2014 9:26 AM
To: John Horton; Michele Neylon - Blacknight
Cc: gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg at icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg at icann.org>
Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] PPSAI WG -- questions for list
Hi John,
maybe I am too European, but I actually think that putting your business details on your website is the norm and good practice. In fact, in the EEC, it is the law. When a service does not do this, or not properly, that is a usually a good sign that something is fishy. Usually a better sign than anything whois details can tell me.
At least all over Europe, lawmakers have thought long and hard about where to require this data to be placed, and they have agreed that the website is the best way to do it. I believe this should serve as a signal for our deliberations as well.
I think the use of "where similar legal requirements already exist" clearly makes the point that this is not the case around the world (yet).
Best,
Volker
Am 22.05.2014 18:47, schrieb John Horton:
I'd agree with Kiran that if possible, it's helpful to edit an existing document, so that everyone can see the tracked changes, including what's been removed. I'd be particularly interested in knowing what phrases seem inaccurate to others, or (to cite Volker's concern) drafted to favor one position. We (genuinely) are trying to propose a balanced statement that reflects the divergent views in the group, and welcome edits.
Although my sense was that Libby's version was fair and balanced, I'd like to flag my concern (with respect and appreciation for the draft, Volker!) about this sentence in Volker's version:
However, a number of other WG members, also representing their SO/AC/C, noted that where similar legal requirements already exist for the "online world", such disclosure is usually required to be contained under a prominent link on the web site as in the translation from the "offline world" to the "online world" legislators usually focussed on the content available under the domain name, not the domain name registration itself.
I understand that the paragraph includes the phrase "where similar legal requirements already exist" perhaps makes the statement technically accurate -- it's sort of a truism -- but it's really not a common enough legal requirement around the world that (in my opinion) it has relevance for this discussion or the WG's written answer. I think it leads the reader to (inaccurately) conclude that such requirements generally exist, and therefore any disclosure requirement in the Whois record for commercial-use entities would be duplicative. I don't believe that the data exist to support that conclusion. Reasonable minds can disagree as to the answer to Question 1, but I don't think we should imply that "Yes" is simply duplicative of already-existing legal requirements, as I think that phrase is (unintentionally, I'm sure) likely to favor the other position.
John Horton
President, LegitScript
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On Thu, May 22, 2014 at 9:19 AM, Michele Neylon - Blacknight <michele at blacknight.com<mailto:michele at blacknight.com>> wrote:
Thanks for this Volker
I would be supportive of this language
Regards
Michele
--
Mr Michele Neylon
Blacknight Solutions
Hosting & Colocation, Domains
http://www.blacknight.co/
http://blog.blacknight.com/
http://www.technology.ie
Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072<tel:%2B353%20%280%29%2059%C2%A0%209183072>
Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090<tel:%2B353%20%280%2959%209183090>
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Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,Sleaty
Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,Ireland Company No.: 370845
From:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org>] On Behalf Of Volker Greimann
Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2014 4:57 PM
To: gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg at icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg at icann.org>
Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] PPSAI WG -- questions for list
I can't support the amended language for obvious reasons. The draft proposed here is clearly drafted to favor one position. If we want to get anywere, we need a more balanced approach.
How about this:
1)
c)
As noted above, the WG appears to unanimously agree that the mere fact of a domain being registered as a commercial entity, or conducting commercial activity in other spheres, should not prevent the use of p/p domain name registration services.
A number of WG members, representing their SO/AC/C, noted that in the “offline world” businesses often are required to register with the relevant authority as well as disclose details about their identity and location. These members suggested that domains used for commercial purposes should be ineligible for privacy and proxy registrations. However, a number of other WG members, also representing their SO/AC/C, noted that where similar legal requirements already exist for the "online world", such disclosure is usually required to be contained under a prominent link on the web site as in the translation from the "offline world" to the "online world" legislators usually focussed on the content available under the domain name, not the domain name registration itself. Further, these members argue that there may be valid reasons why domain name registrants using their domain names for commercial purposes may legitimately need the availability of such services.
There is further divergence within the WG between those members expressing the view that it is both necessary and practical to distinguish in the whois between domains used for a commercial purpose and those domains that are not used for a noncommercial purpose, and those members that expressed the view that it is neither practical nor necessary to require p/p service providers to make that distinction.
Volker
Am 22.05.2014 16:55, schrieb Libby Baney:
All -- as evidenced on last week's call, there is concern about the language in the draft conclusion for Cat C threshold question. Per the request for specific edits, attached are redlined edits to the template submitted for the group's consideration by FWD Strategies Int'l, LegitScript, MarkMonitor and DomainTools. We look forward to your comments and further discussion if needed.
Thanks,
Libby
www.FWDstrategies.com<http://www.FWDstrategies.com>
On Wed, May 21, 2014 at 5:42 AM, Marika Konings <marika.konings at icann.org<mailto:marika.konings at icann.org>> wrote:
Following on from Steve's emails, please find attached the updated templates for C3 and D1, incorporating the notes from the meeting (if I've missed anything, please share your comments / edits with the mailing list). To re-emphasise the action items from the meeting:
1. Please provide your input on the draft preliminary conclusion for C threshold, C1 and C2 as circulated by Don. Several of you suggested removing the word 'overwhelming' from the draft. Are there any other proposed edits?
2. Please provide your input on question C3, especially if you are of the view that there should be differences in the data fields displayed for commercial entity and natural person P/P registrations.
3. Please provide your input on question D1, especially whether it would be desirable to have a public registry of P/P services contact information and a requirement to respond to enquiries both from P/P customers as well as those looking to contact P/P customers. Input on what would qualify as a 'response' and a possible timeframe for responses are also encouraged.
4. Kathy and James will provide an update at the next meeting on issues surrounding transfers between registrars of P/P registrations and possible questions the WG may want to address in this context.
Best regards,
Marika
From: <Metalitz>, Steven <met at msk.com<mailto:met at msk.com>>
Date: Tuesday 20 May 2014 18:06
To: Marika Konings <marika.konings at icann.org<mailto:marika.konings at icann.org>>, "gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg at icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg at icann.org>" <gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg at icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg at icann.org>>
Subject: PPSAI WG -- questions for list
Thanks to all participants on today’s call. Following up on requests made on the call ----
Regarding Don’s draft preliminary text regarding questions C(threshold), C 1 and C2, please circulate your comments and (especially welcomed!) proposed edits. Don’s draft is re-attached here for ready reference.
Regarding question C.3: If the following applies to you, please respond on the list:
IF you believe that privacy/proxy services ought to be open to commercial entities under some circumstances, THEN should there be a difference in the data displayed for such registrations (vs. what is displayed for p/p registrations by natural persons)? If the answer is YES, please specify the differences.
For myself I will say that my answer is NO, but I hope that any YES people will step forward on the list.
Thanks!
Steve Metalitz, vice chair
From:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org] On Behalf Of Marika Konings
Sent: Monday, May 19, 2014 3:39 PM
To: gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg at icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg at icann.org>
Subject: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Proposed Agenda - PPSAI WG Meeting
Dear All,
Please find below the proposed agenda for tomorrow's PPSAI WG Meeting.
Best regards,
Marika
Proposed Agenda – PPSAI WG Meeting – 20 May 2014
1. Roll Call / SOI
2. Review proposed preliminary conclusion for threshold question, C1 and C2 (as circulated by Don)
3. Review C3 – is additional response/discussion needed in light of item 2? (see template attached)
4. Continue deliberations on D1 (see updated template attached)
5. Next steps / confirm next meeting
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