[Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Company Disclosures - Irish Case

Tue Aug 18 16:12:01 UTC 2015

Indeed and as it is content that is problematic for most use cases, the 
information should be where the content is, not where the address label 
is registered.

Volker

Am 18.08.2015 um 18:08 schrieb Kiran Malancharuvil:
> Agreed. So the question remains on the table.
>
> Thanks James.
>
> Kiran
>
> Kiran Malancharuvil
> Policy Counselor
> MarkMonitor
> 415-419-9138 (m)
>
> Sent from my mobile, please excuse any typos.
>
>> On Aug 18, 2015, at 9:07 AM, James M. Bladel <jbladel at godaddy.com> wrote:
>>
>> I agree with this.  I also agree with the reverse: That simply because one
>> form of transparency (website operator) is required by law, it does not
>> necessarily extend to other platforms (WHOIS, business directories, etc.)
>>
>> Thanks‹
>>
>> J.
>>
>>
>>
>> On 8/18/15, 10:39 , "gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org on behalf of
>> Kiran Malancharuvil" <gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org on behalf of
>> Kiran.Malancharuvil at markmonitor.com> wrote:
>>
>>> It doesn't really. How does an affirmative obligation to disclose one
>>> thing divest of any discussion about transparency in another regard?
>>>
>>> Kiran Malancharuvil
>>> Policy Counselor
>>> MarkMonitor
>>> 415-419-9138 (m)
>>>
>>> Sent from my mobile, please excuse any typos.
>>>
>>> On Aug 18, 2015, at 8:32 AM, Thomas Rickert
>>> <rickert at anwaelte.de<mailto:rickert at anwaelte.de>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Kiran,
>>> in Germany (and mostly throughout the EU based on harmonized law), there
>>> are information and disclosure requirements for telemedia services. The
>>> information duties are different depending on the service or information
>>> offered, but they are conclusive, i.e. if you follow what is explicitly
>>> requested by law, then you are compliant. There is no such requirement
>>> for whois.
>>>
>>> I hope this helps.
>>>
>>> Best,
>>> Thomas
>>> ---
>>> rickert.net<http://rickert.net>
>>>
>>>
>>> Am 18.08.2015 um 16:26 schrieb Kiran Malancharuvil
>>> <Kiran.Malancharuvil at markmonitor.com<mailto:Kiran.Malancharuvil at markmonito
>>> r.com>>:
>>>
>>> Thanks Michele,
>>>
>>> I did read the entire document as well as the "leaflet" linked. Thanks
>>> again for providing.
>>>
>>> It hasn't been my experience that the absence of a direct reference to a
>>> parallel or complimentary issue in a law means that there is no law or
>>> legal standard governing or guiding that parallel or complimentary issue.
>>>
>>> Nor would I draw the somewhat surprising conclusion that Volker makes
>>> that requiring disclosure on a website makes Whois unnecessary.
>>>
>>> Question: who enforces this provision? How do consumers or consumer
>>> protection companies submit requests where that information is missing or
>>> incorrect?
>>>
>>> K
>>>
>>> Kiran Malancharuvil
>>> Policy Counselor
>>> MarkMonitor
>>> 415-419-9138 (m)
>>>
>>> Sent from my mobile, please excuse any typos.
>>>
>>> On Aug 18, 2015, at 7:09 AM, Michele Neylon - Blacknight
>>> <michele at blacknight.com<mailto:michele at blacknight.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Kiran
>>>
>>> If you read the entire document and the ³leaflet² linked to they only
>>> talk about websites and pages on websites. There¹s also an advisory that
>>> they put out some time back about email communications.
>>>
>>> There is nothing anywhere that refers to whois in any shape or form.
>>>
>>> If all the contact details, company number etc., are on the website (and
>>> probably in the emails) then I doubt anyone really cares about what may
>>> or may not be in the public whois records.
>>>
>>> Bear in mind also that the .ie ccTLD public whois contains less detail
>>> than that of a gTLD:
>>> domain:       blacknight.ie<http://blacknight.ie>
>>> descr:        Blacknight Internet Solutions Limited
>>> descr:        Body Corporate (Ltd,PLC,Company)
>>> descr:        Corporate Name
>>> admin-c:      AAE553-IEDR
>>> tech-c:       AAM456-IEDR
>>> registration: 21-August-2003
>>> renewal:      21-August-2016
>>> holder-type:  Billable
>>> wipo-status:  N
>>> ren-status:   Active
>>> in-zone:      1
>>> nserver:
>>> ns.blacknightsolutions.com<http://ns.blacknightsolutions.com>
>>> nserver:
>>> ns2.blacknightsolutions.com<http://ns2.blacknightsolutions.com>
>>> source:       IEDR
>>> person:       Blacknight.com<http://Blacknight.com> Hostmaster
>>> nic-hdl:      AAE553-IEDR
>>> source:       IEDR
>>> person:       Blacknight.ie<http://Blacknight.ie> Hostmaster
>>> nic-hdl:      AAM456-IEDR
>>> source:       IEDR
>>>
>>> If more detail, such as physical address, etc., were required under Irish
>>> law I¹m pretty sure the .ie ccTLD would include in their whois output.
>>>
>>> It¹s also worth noting that the whois for .ie in common with most other
>>> ccTLDs rate limits queries.
>>>
>>> Regards
>>>
>>> Michele
>>>
>>> --
>>> Mr Michele Neylon
>>> Blacknight Solutions
>>> Hosting, Colocation & Domains
>>> http://www.blacknight.host/
>>> http://blog.blacknight.com/
>>> http://www.blacknight.press - get our latest news & media coverage
>>> http://www.technology.ie
>>> Intl. +353 (0) 59  9183072
>>> Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090
>>> Social: http://mneylon.social
>>> Random Stuff: http://michele.irish
>>> -------------------------------
>>> Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business
>>> Park,Sleaty
>>> Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,Ireland  Company No.: 370845
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 18/08/2015 14:55, "Kiran Malancharuvil"
>>> <Kiran.Malancharuvil at markmonitor.com<mailto:Kiran.Malancharuvil at markmonito
>>> r.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Michele,
>>>
>>> I'm missing the part of the law that expressly states that this doesn't
>>> apply to Whois?  (implicit exclusions of the laws applicability would
>>> work too) Could you send that? Or maybe it's a case?
>>>
>>> Kiran Malancharuvil
>>> Policy Counselor
>>> MarkMonitor
>>> 415-419-9138 (m)
>>>
>>> Sent from my mobile, please excuse any typos.
>>>
>>> On Aug 18, 2015, at 5:25 AM, Michele Neylon - Blacknight
>>> <michele at blacknight.com<mailto:michele at blacknight.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>> One of the arguments some people put forward against privacy / proxy is
>>> one of ³transparency²
>>>
>>> Under Irish law limited companies (not businesses / sole traders) have
>>> disclosure obligations on their website(s)
>>> These do NOT apply to whois
>>>
>>> ³Every limited liability company which has a website is also required to
>>> display either on its homepage or to be identified on its homepage, a
>>> readily accessible webpage on which the following appear:
>>>
>>> the name and legal form of the company
>>> the place of registration of the company and the number with which it is
>>> registered
>>> the address of the registered office of the company
>>> in the case of a company exempt from the obligation to use the company
>>> type (Companies Limited by Guarantee/Designated Activity Companies) as
>>> part of its name, the fact that it is such a company.
>>> in the case of a company which is being wound up, the fact that it is
>>> being wound up
>>> if the share capital of a company is mentioned on the website, the
>>> reference must be to the paid-up share capital"
>>>
>>> And
>>> https://www.cro.ie/Registration/Company/Incidental-Obligations/Letterheads
>>>
>>>
>>> So you will find Irish companies that are using proxy / privacy on the
>>> whois but who publish all their contact details on their website(s)
>>>
>>> You¹ll also notice that many of the European registrars (myself included)
>>> have our company details in our email signatures - whereas most Non-EU
>>> based companies don¹t Š.
>>>
>>> Regards
>>>
>>> Michele
>>>
>>> --
>>> Mr Michele Neylon
>>> Blacknight Solutions
>>> Hosting, Colocation & Domains
>>> http://www.blacknight.host/
>>> http://blog.blacknight.com/
>>> http://www.blacknight.press - get our latest news & media coverage
>>> http://www.technology.ie
>>> Intl. +353 (0) 59  9183072
>>> Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090
>>> Social: http://mneylon.social
>>> Random Stuff: http://michele.irish
>>> -------------------------------
>>> Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business
>>> Park,Sleaty
>>> Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,Ireland  Company No.: 370845
>>>
>>>
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