[Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Issue-spotting for the WG's preliminary recommendations

Wed Aug 19 14:45:06 UTC 2015

It might sound rough to the ears but I'm afraid Volker is right about this
one. Saying you made suggestions for language and amendments is not the
same as being at the table pushing a community's POV in negotiations.

I chaired the At-Large WHOIS WG for most of the time the RAA 2013 was in
negotiations.  And yes, At-Large interests caucused and 'threw things over
the fence' time and again but we could never be sure anyone was even
listening since we hardly got receipt acknowledgement.  So it would be a
stretch to say the RAA contract negotiation was a bottom-up process.

The ALAC did request observer status in the negotiations itself but was
politely rebuffed. So we did the next best thing; we began meeting directly
and regularly with a group of registrars and exchanged views. That facility
was negotiated by the then ALAC Chair Olivier Crepin-Leblond and organized
on the registrars' side by one Michele Neylon.

-Carlton

==============================
Carlton A Samuels
Mobile: 876-818-1799
*Strategy, Planning, Governance, Assessment & Turnaround*
=============================

On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 3:37 AM, Volker Greimann <vgreimann at key-systems.net>
wrote:

> The contract is not subject to the bottom up process. I suggest you read
> up on the picket fence, and whats inside and outside of it.
>
> While there is an opportunity to provide input it is negotiated between
> ICANN and registrars, and as in any contract, the interpretation of the
> parties at the time of agreement is essential to its meaning. There is no
> multi-stakeholder bottom up process in contract interpretation except where
> it informed or influenced ICANN or registrar positions.
>
> Also look at 7.5 of the RAA everytime you think the RAA creates an
> obligation of a registrar towards you or any other third party.
>
> "V"
>
>
> Am 18.08.2015 um 19:07 schrieb Kiran Malancharuvil:
>
>> Indeed Stephanie, Volkers comments that the only two entities that matter
>> in the interpretation/negotiation of the RAA are ICANN STAFF and the
>> Registrars definitely flies in the face of the multi stakeholder bottom up
>> process.
>>
>> To answer your question directly, law enforcements recommendations were
>> the subject of public comments I believe. Certainly I recall civil society
>> and others (such as the IPC) weighing in on multiple occasions. Not sure
>> what value that has in the face of Volkers opinion.
>>
>> K
>>
>> Kiran Malancharuvil
>> Policy Counselor
>> MarkMonitor
>> 415-419-9138 (m)
>>
>> Sent from my mobile, please excuse any typos.
>>
>> On Aug 18, 2015, at 9:55 AM, Stephanie Perrin <
>> stephanie.perrin at mail.utoronto.ca<mailto:
>> stephanie.perrin at mail.utoronto.ca>> wrote:
>>
>> Was civil society present at these negotiations?  Certainly sets policy,
>> which supposed to be a bottom up process at ICANN.
>> Stephanie Perrin
>>
>> On 2015-08-18 11:46, Terri Stumme wrote:
>> Volker, with all due respect, the law enforcement coalition was
>> certainly involved in the negotiations. Law enforcement had meetings with
>> the registrars (ICANN staff present), and also met with ICANN staff
>> separately, as did the registrars, to discuss and resolve the issues that
>> arose from the original RAA LE recommendations.  I therefore object to your
>> conclusion that I was not at the table or part of the negotiations.  I was
>> part of the LE coalition throughout the entire process.
>>
>> If the definition as it is written in the RAA is not the common
>> understanding or accepted interpretation of the Registrars, then the
>> definition should be revisited for modification in the RAA, not changed for
>> purposes of the PPSAI report.
>>
>> 
>>
>> On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 6:42 AM, Volker Greimann <
>> vgreimann at key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net>> wrote:
>> Terri, with all due respect, the language was negotiated between ICANN
>> staff and registrars. LEAs may have had a hand in suggesting language for
>> inclusion, but was not at the table or part of the negotiations. You were
>> definitely not "involved in the negotiations", but you were invited to
>> provide input.
>>
>> I therefore object to your conclusion that your interpretation reflects
>> what the parties intended. It may very well have been the intention of LEAs
>> when they suggested the language, but it was not the common understanding
>> or accepted interpretation when registrars discussed the language with
>> ICANN and agreed to it.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Volker
>>
>>
>> Am 17.08.2015 um 21:03 schrieb Terri Stumme:
>> In regard to Section 3.18.2 of the RAA -- the language is written and
>> encompasses the exact meaning of what was submitted by LE, and accepted by
>> the Registrars during the LE/Registrar negotiations. During the time that
>> the RAA was negotiated, I worked for the US Drug Enforcement Administration
>> and was involved in the negotiations.
>> I believe it is inappropriate to attempt to undermine the intent of this
>> section, or attempt to modify it in any way -- the language means exactly
>> what it says and was intended to mean.
>>
>> On Mon, Aug 17, 2015 at 11:41 AM, Volker Greimann <
>> vgreimann at key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net>> wrote:
>> Can we rephrase the responses to sound more neutral as to the result?
>>
>> 3.         Response to Question 3:  Does proposed requirement to label
>> p/p registrations as such have an impact on the benefit or value of such
>> registration and if what should be the result of this?  (Comments 18, 25,
>> 31)
>>
>> 4.            Response to Question 8:  Should providers be required to
>> forward all disclosure requests to customers, unless prohibited by law?
>> (Comments 17, 29)  (I.e., should this feature of Annex E be made applicable
>> to all disclosure requests, not just those relating to intellectual
>> property?)
>>
>> 5.            Response to Question 8:  Should the option of registration
>> cancellation in lieu of disclosure be maintained or prohibited?  (Comments
>> 24, 31)
>> (Please also note that the cancellation of the registration may not even
>> be a tool in the toolkit of the privacy provider, depending on his degree
>> of integration with the registrar.)
>>
>> The law enforcement authority as discussed for the RAA was supposed to
>> only include official state-run law enforcement bodies and such agencies
>> designated by law with certain powers comparable to official LEAs. We have
>> seen a small number of cases where the language was later used beyond what
>> was intended to organizations that received no more than a latter from a
>> government agency supporting that organizations work.
>> Our definition therefore should limit the scope of LEAs to that
>> originally intended definition, not the unintended definition the language
>> currently allows.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Volker
>>
>>
>> Am 14.08.2015 um 23:50 schrieb Metalitz, Steven:
>> Pursuant to Mary’s request, I suggest the following additional issues
>> raised in comments contained in the public comment tool document
>> summarized, for possible consideration by the WG:
>>
>> 3.            Response to Question 3:   Should the proposed requirement
>> to label p/p registrations as such be dispensed with because it reduces the
>> benefit or value of such registration?  (Comments 18, 25, 31)
>>
>> 4.            Response to Question 8:  Should providers be required to
>> forward all disclosure requests to customers, unless prohibited by law?
>> (Comments 17, 29)  (I.e., should this feature of Annex E be made applicable
>> to all disclosure requests, not just those relating to intellectual
>> property?)
>>
>> 5.            Response to Question 8:  Should the option of registration
>> cancellation in lieu of disclosure be prohibited?  (Comments 24, 31)
>>
>> In addition, with regard to issue #2 as summarized  below (“law
>> enforcement authority” definition):  since the definition in our initial
>> report was copied from the 2013 RAA, can any registrars in our group report
>> on whether or not this definition has thus far caused difficulties in the
>> RAA context (e.g., have there been problems in determining whether a
>> complaint from a “quasi-governmental entity” should be handled under RAA
>> section 3.18.2, with its 24-hour time limit, rather than under 3.18.1)?
>>
>> Steve Metalitz
>>
>> From: gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org<mailto:
>> gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org> [mailto:
>> gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org] On Behalf Of Mary Wong
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 11, 2015 4:04 PM
>> To: gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg at icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg at icann.org>
>> Subject: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Issue-spotting for the WG's preliminary
>> recommendations
>>
>> Dear WG members,
>>
>> As noted on the WG call earlier today, please send to this your
>> suggestions for issues arising out of specific public comments received on
>> the WG’s Preliminary Recommendations #1 through #9 that you think should be
>> discussed by the broader WG.
>>
>>  From the call today, two issues with Recommendation #1 were identified
>> for WG consideration:
>>
>>    *   Whether the definitions include lawyers and law firms that provide
>> proxy registration services for their clients other than as a primary
>> business offering;
>>    *   The possible breadth/vagueness of the proposed definition of “law
>> enforcement authority” as including quasi-governmental and other entities
>> Since the WG Public Comment Review Tool for these nine recommendations
>> have been in circulation since 20 July, please treat this email as a “last
>> call” for issue-spotting concerning these nine recommendations – as such,
>> please send any issues you spot to this list by Friday 14 August. Please
>> also indicate in your email which comment(s)/commenter(s) you are referring
>> to as raising the issue(s) you identify. Note that, as confirmed during the
>> WG call today, this exercise is for purposes of issue-spotting only at the
>> moment rather than final resolution, which will depend on further
>> discussions, as appropriate.
>>
>> Staff will compile the issues so identified for review by the WG on our
>> next call.
>>
>> Thanks and cheers
>> Mary
>>
>> Mary Wong
>> Senior Policy Director
>> Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN)
>> Telephone: +1 603 574 4889<tel:%2B1%20603%20574%204889>
>> Email: mary.wong at icann.org<mailto:mary.wong at icann.org>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>>
>> --
>> Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
>>
>> Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
>>
>> Volker A. Greimann
>> - Rechtsabteilung -
>>
>> Key-Systems GmbH
>> Im Oberen Werk 1
>> 66386 St. Ingbert
>> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
>> <tel:%2B49%20%280%29%206894%20-%209396%20901>
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>> Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net>
>>
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>> --------------------------------------------
>>
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>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Volker A. Greimann
>> - legal department -
>>
>> Key-Systems GmbH
>> Im Oberen Werk 1
>> 66386 St. Ingbert
>> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
>> <tel:%2B49%20%280%29%206894%20-%209396%20901>
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>>
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>>
>> CEO: Alexander Siffrin
>> Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
>> V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
>>
>> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
>> www.keydrive.lu<http://www.keydrive.lu>
>>
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>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg mailing list
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>> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg
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>>
>>
>> --
>> Terri Stumme
>> Intelligence Analyst
>>
>>
>> --
>> Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
>>
>> Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
>>
>> Volker A. Greimann
>> - Rechtsabteilung -
>>
>> Key-Systems GmbH
>> Im Oberen Werk 1
>> 66386 St. Ingbert
>> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
>> <tel:%2B49%20%280%29%206894%20-%209396%20901>
>> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
>> <tel:%2B49%20%280%29%206894%20-%209396%20851>
>> Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net>
>>
>> Web: www.key-systems.net<http://www.key-systems.net> / www.RRPproxy.net<
>> http://www.RRPproxy.net>
>> www.domaindiscount24.com<http://www.domaindiscount24.com> /
>> www.BrandShelter.com<http://www.BrandShelter.com>
>>
>> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:
>> www.facebook.com/KeySystems<http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems>
>> www.twitter.com/key_systems<http://www.twitter.com/key_systems>
>>
>> Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin
>> Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
>> Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534
>>
>> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
>> www.keydrive.lu<http://www.keydrive.lu>
>>
>> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen
>> Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder
>> Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese
>> Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per
>> E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
>>
>> --------------------------------------------
>>
>> Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact
>> us.
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Volker A. Greimann
>> - legal department -
>>
>> Key-Systems GmbH
>> Im Oberen Werk 1
>> 66386 St. Ingbert
>> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
>> <tel:%2B49%20%280%29%206894%20-%209396%20901>
>> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
>> <tel:%2B49%20%280%29%206894%20-%209396%20851>
>> Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net>
>>
>> Web: www.key-systems.net<http://www.key-systems.net> / www.RRPproxy.net<
>> http://www.RRPproxy.net>
>> www.domaindiscount24.com<http://www.domaindiscount24.com> /
>> www.BrandShelter.com<http://www.BrandShelter.com>
>>
>> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay
>> updated:
>> www.facebook.com/KeySystems<http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems>
>> www.twitter.com/key_systems<http://www.twitter.com/key_systems>
>>
>> CEO: Alexander Siffrin
>> Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
>> V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
>>
>> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
>> www.keydrive.lu<http://www.keydrive.lu>
>>
>> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom
>> it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of
>> this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail.
>> If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly
>> notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Terri Stumme
>> Intelligence Analyst
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>>
>
> --
> Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
>
> Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
>
> Volker A. Greimann
> - Rechtsabteilung -
>
> Key-Systems GmbH
> Im Oberen Werk 1
> 66386 St. Ingbert
> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
> Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net
>
> Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net
> www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com
>
> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:
> www.facebook.com/KeySystems
> www.twitter.com/key_systems
>
> Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin
> Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
> Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534
>
> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
> www.keydrive.lu
>
> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen
> Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder
> Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese
> Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per
> E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
>
> --------------------------------------------
>
> Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact
> us.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Volker A. Greimann
> - legal department -
>
> Key-Systems GmbH
> Im Oberen Werk 1
> 66386 St. Ingbert
> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
> Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net
>
> Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net
> www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com
>
> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay
> updated:
> www.facebook.com/KeySystems
> www.twitter.com/key_systems
>
> CEO: Alexander Siffrin
> Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
> V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
>
> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
> www.keydrive.lu
>
> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it
> is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of
> this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail.
> If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly
> notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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