[Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Issue-spotting for the WG's preliminary recommendations

Wed Aug 19 16:01:54 UTC 2015

I suspect that a lot of law enforcement folks would be a little surprised
if you told them that they weren't part of the negotiations. :) Although I
wasn't personally involved in negotiations the multi-stakeholder process
that resulted in the RAA, I think it might be helpful to step back and
think about the larger context of the discussion here and the history as I
understand it (and I'm not sure I still have sight of the relevance to P/P
issues, but hey -- whatev...). I think that ICANN policy and policy
documents -- including the RAA -- are developed and refined based on input
from a lot of parties; I've heard a few stakeholders *including registrars* say
over the last couple of years that certain provisions in the 2013 RAA are
there "because law enforcement (or the GAC) wanted it" or "as a result of
negotiations with law enforcement" (or "the GAC"). I've also heard that
from at least one ICANN staff person. So, argue about the terminology all
you want -- and this may come down to nothing but terminology -- but it
seems pretty clear that the GAC and/or law enforcement -- even if not a
party to the RAA -- had a pretty important voice and were asked if they
"could accept" certain things. As, I hope, did others.

But I also think that in general, a long-standing historic legal principle
is useful to keep in mind any time that a question comes up regarding the
RAA or some other contract or document. If the meaning of text (e.g, in a
contract or regulation) is clear and easily understood to an average
reader, then that language -- not attempts to claim "That's not what we
meant!" -- is controlling. Usually, "legislative history" or the
contractual parties' subjective intent is only relevant in the case of
ambiguous language -- not as a strategy to undermine or neutralize clear,
easily understandable text.

Over and out.

John Horton
President and CEO, LegitScript

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On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 7:45 AM, Carlton Samuels <carlton.samuels at gmail.com>
wrote:

> It might sound rough to the ears but I'm afraid Volker is right about this
> one. Saying you made suggestions for language and amendments is not the
> same as being at the table pushing a community's POV in negotiations.
>
> I chaired the At-Large WHOIS WG for most of the time the RAA 2013 was in
> negotiations.  And yes, At-Large interests caucused and 'threw things over
> the fence' time and again but we could never be sure anyone was even
> listening since we hardly got receipt acknowledgement.  So it would be a
> stretch to say the RAA contract negotiation was a bottom-up process.
>
> The ALAC did request observer status in the negotiations itself but was
> politely rebuffed. So we did the next best thing; we began meeting directly
> and regularly with a group of registrars and exchanged views. That facility
> was negotiated by the then ALAC Chair Olivier Crepin-Leblond and organized
> on the registrars' side by one Michele Neylon.
>
> -Carlton
>
>
> ==============================
> Carlton A Samuels
> Mobile: 876-818-1799
> *Strategy, Planning, Governance, Assessment & Turnaround*
> =============================
>
> On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 3:37 AM, Volker Greimann <
> vgreimann at key-systems.net> wrote:
>
>> The contract is not subject to the bottom up process. I suggest you read
>> up on the picket fence, and whats inside and outside of it.
>>
>> While there is an opportunity to provide input it is negotiated between
>> ICANN and registrars, and as in any contract, the interpretation of the
>> parties at the time of agreement is essential to its meaning. There is no
>> multi-stakeholder bottom up process in contract interpretation except where
>> it informed or influenced ICANN or registrar positions.
>>
>> Also look at 7.5 of the RAA everytime you think the RAA creates an
>> obligation of a registrar towards you or any other third party.
>>
>> "V"
>>
>>
>> Am 18.08.2015 um 19:07 schrieb Kiran Malancharuvil:
>>
>>> Indeed Stephanie, Volkers comments that the only two entities that
>>> matter in the interpretation/negotiation of the RAA are ICANN STAFF and the
>>> Registrars definitely flies in the face of the multi stakeholder bottom up
>>> process.
>>>
>>> To answer your question directly, law enforcements recommendations were
>>> the subject of public comments I believe. Certainly I recall civil society
>>> and others (such as the IPC) weighing in on multiple occasions. Not sure
>>> what value that has in the face of Volkers opinion.
>>>
>>> K
>>>
>>> Kiran Malancharuvil
>>> Policy Counselor
>>> MarkMonitor
>>> 415-419-9138 (m)
>>>
>>> Sent from my mobile, please excuse any typos.
>>>
>>> On Aug 18, 2015, at 9:55 AM, Stephanie Perrin <
>>> stephanie.perrin at mail.utoronto.ca<mailto:
>>> stephanie.perrin at mail.utoronto.ca>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Was civil society present at these negotiations?  Certainly sets policy,
>>> which supposed to be a bottom up process at ICANN.
>>> Stephanie Perrin
>>>
>>> On 2015-08-18 11:46, Terri Stumme wrote:
>>> Volker, with all due respect, the law enforcement coalition was
>>> certainly involved in the negotiations. Law enforcement had meetings with
>>> the registrars (ICANN staff present), and also met with ICANN staff
>>> separately, as did the registrars, to discuss and resolve the issues that
>>> arose from the original RAA LE recommendations.  I therefore object to your
>>> conclusion that I was not at the table or part of the negotiations.  I was
>>> part of the LE coalition throughout the entire process.
>>>
>>> If the definition as it is written in the RAA is not the common
>>> understanding or accepted interpretation of the Registrars, then the
>>> definition should be revisited for modification in the RAA, not changed for
>>> purposes of the PPSAI report.
>>>
>>> 
>>>
>>> On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 6:42 AM, Volker Greimann <
>>> vgreimann at key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net>> wrote:
>>> Terri, with all due respect, the language was negotiated between ICANN
>>> staff and registrars. LEAs may have had a hand in suggesting language for
>>> inclusion, but was not at the table or part of the negotiations. You were
>>> definitely not "involved in the negotiations", but you were invited to
>>> provide input.
>>>
>>> I therefore object to your conclusion that your interpretation reflects
>>> what the parties intended. It may very well have been the intention of LEAs
>>> when they suggested the language, but it was not the common understanding
>>> or accepted interpretation when registrars discussed the language with
>>> ICANN and agreed to it.
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> Volker
>>>
>>>
>>> Am 17.08.2015 um 21:03 schrieb Terri Stumme:
>>> In regard to Section 3.18.2 of the RAA -- the language is written and
>>> encompasses the exact meaning of what was submitted by LE, and accepted by
>>> the Registrars during the LE/Registrar negotiations. During the time that
>>> the RAA was negotiated, I worked for the US Drug Enforcement Administration
>>> and was involved in the negotiations.
>>> I believe it is inappropriate to attempt to undermine the intent of this
>>> section, or attempt to modify it in any way -- the language means exactly
>>> what it says and was intended to mean.
>>>
>>> On Mon, Aug 17, 2015 at 11:41 AM, Volker Greimann <
>>> vgreimann at key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net>> wrote:
>>> Can we rephrase the responses to sound more neutral as to the result?
>>>
>>> 3.         Response to Question 3:  Does proposed requirement to label
>>> p/p registrations as such have an impact on the benefit or value of such
>>> registration and if what should be the result of this?  (Comments 18, 25,
>>> 31)
>>>
>>> 4.            Response to Question 8:  Should providers be required to
>>> forward all disclosure requests to customers, unless prohibited by law?
>>> (Comments 17, 29)  (I.e., should this feature of Annex E be made applicable
>>> to all disclosure requests, not just those relating to intellectual
>>> property?)
>>>
>>> 5.            Response to Question 8:  Should the option of registration
>>> cancellation in lieu of disclosure be maintained or prohibited?  (Comments
>>> 24, 31)
>>> (Please also note that the cancellation of the registration may not even
>>> be a tool in the toolkit of the privacy provider, depending on his degree
>>> of integration with the registrar.)
>>>
>>> The law enforcement authority as discussed for the RAA was supposed to
>>> only include official state-run law enforcement bodies and such agencies
>>> designated by law with certain powers comparable to official LEAs. We have
>>> seen a small number of cases where the language was later used beyond what
>>> was intended to organizations that received no more than a latter from a
>>> government agency supporting that organizations work.
>>> Our definition therefore should limit the scope of LEAs to that
>>> originally intended definition, not the unintended definition the language
>>> currently allows.
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> Volker
>>>
>>>
>>> Am 14.08.2015 um 23:50 schrieb Metalitz, Steven:
>>> Pursuant to Mary’s request, I suggest the following additional issues
>>> raised in comments contained in the public comment tool document
>>> summarized, for possible consideration by the WG:
>>>
>>> 3.            Response to Question 3:   Should the proposed requirement
>>> to label p/p registrations as such be dispensed with because it reduces the
>>> benefit or value of such registration?  (Comments 18, 25, 31)
>>>
>>> 4.            Response to Question 8:  Should providers be required to
>>> forward all disclosure requests to customers, unless prohibited by law?
>>> (Comments 17, 29)  (I.e., should this feature of Annex E be made applicable
>>> to all disclosure requests, not just those relating to intellectual
>>> property?)
>>>
>>> 5.            Response to Question 8:  Should the option of registration
>>> cancellation in lieu of disclosure be prohibited?  (Comments 24, 31)
>>>
>>> In addition, with regard to issue #2 as summarized  below (“law
>>> enforcement authority” definition):  since the definition in our initial
>>> report was copied from the 2013 RAA, can any registrars in our group report
>>> on whether or not this definition has thus far caused difficulties in the
>>> RAA context (e.g., have there been problems in determining whether a
>>> complaint from a “quasi-governmental entity” should be handled under RAA
>>> section 3.18.2, with its 24-hour time limit, rather than under 3.18.1)?
>>>
>>> Steve Metalitz
>>>
>>> From: gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org<mailto:
>>> gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org> [mailto:
>>> gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org] On Behalf Of Mary Wong
>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 11, 2015 4:04 PM
>>> To: gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg at icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg at icann.org>
>>> Subject: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Issue-spotting for the WG's preliminary
>>> recommendations
>>>
>>> Dear WG members,
>>>
>>> As noted on the WG call earlier today, please send to this your
>>> suggestions for issues arising out of specific public comments received on
>>> the WG’s Preliminary Recommendations #1 through #9 that you think should be
>>> discussed by the broader WG.
>>>
>>>  From the call today, two issues with Recommendation #1 were identified
>>> for WG consideration:
>>>
>>>    *   Whether the definitions include lawyers and law firms that
>>> provide proxy registration services for their clients other than as a
>>> primary business offering;
>>>    *   The possible breadth/vagueness of the proposed definition of “law
>>> enforcement authority” as including quasi-governmental and other entities
>>> Since the WG Public Comment Review Tool for these nine recommendations
>>> have been in circulation since 20 July, please treat this email as a “last
>>> call” for issue-spotting concerning these nine recommendations – as such,
>>> please send any issues you spot to this list by Friday 14 August. Please
>>> also indicate in your email which comment(s)/commenter(s) you are referring
>>> to as raising the issue(s) you identify. Note that, as confirmed during the
>>> WG call today, this exercise is for purposes of issue-spotting only at the
>>> moment rather than final resolution, which will depend on further
>>> discussions, as appropriate.
>>>
>>> Staff will compile the issues so identified for review by the WG on our
>>> next call.
>>>
>>> Thanks and cheers
>>> Mary
>>>
>>> Mary Wong
>>> Senior Policy Director
>>> Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN)
>>> Telephone: +1 603 574 4889<tel:%2B1%20603%20574%204889>
>>> Email: mary.wong at icann.org<mailto:mary.wong at icann.org>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg mailing list
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>>> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
>>>
>>> Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
>>>
>>> Volker A. Greimann
>>> - Rechtsabteilung -
>>>
>>> Key-Systems GmbH
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>>> CEO: Alexander Siffrin
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>>>
>>> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
>>> www.keydrive.lu<http://www.keydrive.lu>
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>>>
>>> --
>>> Terri Stumme
>>> Intelligence Analyst
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
>>>
>>> Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
>>>
>>> Volker A. Greimann
>>> - Rechtsabteilung -
>>>
>>> Key-Systems GmbH
>>> Im Oberen Werk 1
>>> 66386 St. Ingbert
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>>>
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>>> - legal department -
>>>
>>> Key-Systems GmbH
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>>> --
>>> Terri Stumme
>>> Intelligence Analyst
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>
>> --
>> Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
>>
>> Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
>>
>> Volker A. Greimann
>> - Rechtsabteilung -
>>
>> Key-Systems GmbH
>> Im Oberen Werk 1
>> 66386 St. Ingbert
>> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
>> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
>> Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net
>>
>> Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net
>> www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com
>>
>> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:
>> www.facebook.com/KeySystems
>> www.twitter.com/key_systems
>>
>> Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin
>> Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
>> Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534
>>
>> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
>> www.keydrive.lu
>>
>> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen
>> Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder
>> Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese
>> Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per
>> E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
>>
>> --------------------------------------------
>>
>> Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact
>> us.
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Volker A. Greimann
>> - legal department -
>>
>> Key-Systems GmbH
>> Im Oberen Werk 1
>> 66386 St. Ingbert
>> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
>> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
>> Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net
>>
>> Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net
>> www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com
>>
>> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay
>> updated:
>> www.facebook.com/KeySystems
>> www.twitter.com/key_systems
>>
>> CEO: Alexander Siffrin
>> Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
>> V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
>>
>> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
>> www.keydrive.lu
>>
>> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom
>> it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of
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>> If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly
>> notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
>>
>>
>>
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>
>
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