[Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Issue-spotting for the WG's preliminary recommendations

Thu Aug 20 00:41:23 UTC 2015

Please be assured that I do understand how contracts work as a 
regulation mechanism at ICANN.  However, it is my observation that the 
contracts contain policy.  I cannot in all instances follow the thread 
back to a policy decision of the GNSO.
And if there is lobbying going on to express viewpoints etc, that is a 
problem in my view.  Greater transparency is in the public interest.
cheers Stephanie

On 2015-08-19 4:37, Volker Greimann wrote:
> The contract is not subject to the bottom up process. I suggest you 
> read up on the picket fence, and whats inside and outside of it.
>
> While there is an opportunity to provide input it is negotiated 
> between ICANN and registrars, and as in any contract, the 
> interpretation of the parties at the time of agreement is essential to 
> its meaning. There is no multi-stakeholder bottom up process in 
> contract interpretation except where it informed or influenced ICANN 
> or registrar positions.
>
> Also look at 7.5 of the RAA everytime you think the RAA creates an 
> obligation of a registrar towards you or any other third party.
>
> "V"
>
>
> Am 18.08.2015 um 19:07 schrieb Kiran Malancharuvil:
>> Indeed Stephanie, Volkers comments that the only two entities that 
>> matter in the interpretation/negotiation of the RAA are ICANN STAFF 
>> and the Registrars definitely flies in the face of the multi 
>> stakeholder bottom up process.
>>
>> To answer your question directly, law enforcements recommendations 
>> were the subject of public comments I believe. Certainly I recall 
>> civil society and others (such as the IPC) weighing in on multiple 
>> occasions. Not sure what value that has in the face of Volkers opinion.
>>
>> K
>>
>> Kiran Malancharuvil
>> Policy Counselor
>> MarkMonitor
>> 415-419-9138 (m)
>>
>> Sent from my mobile, please excuse any typos.
>>
>> On Aug 18, 2015, at 9:55 AM, Stephanie Perrin 
>> <stephanie.perrin at mail.utoronto.ca<mailto:stephanie.perrin at mail.utoronto.ca>> 
>> wrote:
>>
>> Was civil society present at these negotiations?  Certainly sets 
>> policy, which supposed to be a bottom up process at ICANN.
>> Stephanie Perrin
>>
>> On 2015-08-18 11:46, Terri Stumme wrote:
>> Volker, with all due respect, the law enforcement coalition was 
>> certainly involved in the negotiations. Law enforcement had meetings 
>> with the registrars (ICANN staff present), and also met with ICANN 
>> staff separately, as did the registrars, to discuss and resolve the 
>> issues that arose from the original RAA LE recommendations.  I 
>> therefore object to your conclusion that I was not at the table or 
>> part of the negotiations.  I was part of the LE coalition throughout 
>> the entire process.
>>
>> If the definition as it is written in the RAA is not the common 
>> understanding or accepted interpretation of the Registrars, then the 
>> definition should be revisited for modification in the RAA, not 
>> changed for purposes of the PPSAI report.
>>
>> 
>>
>> On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 6:42 AM, Volker Greimann 
>> <vgreimann at key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net>> wrote:
>> Terri, with all due respect, the language was negotiated between 
>> ICANN staff and registrars. LEAs may have had a hand in suggesting 
>> language for inclusion, but was not at the table or part of the 
>> negotiations. You were definitely not "involved in the negotiations", 
>> but you were invited to provide input.
>>
>> I therefore object to your conclusion that your interpretation 
>> reflects what the parties intended. It may very well have been the 
>> intention of LEAs when they suggested the language, but it was not 
>> the common understanding or accepted interpretation when registrars 
>> discussed the language with ICANN and agreed to it.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Volker
>>
>>
>> Am 17.08.2015 um 21:03 schrieb Terri Stumme:
>> In regard to Section 3.18.2 of the RAA -- the language is written and 
>> encompasses the exact meaning of what was submitted by LE, and 
>> accepted by the Registrars during the LE/Registrar negotiations. 
>> During the time that the RAA was negotiated, I worked for the US Drug 
>> Enforcement Administration and was involved in the negotiations.
>> I believe it is inappropriate to attempt to undermine the intent of 
>> this section, or attempt to modify it in any way -- the language 
>> means exactly what it says and was intended to mean.
>>
>> On Mon, Aug 17, 2015 at 11:41 AM, Volker Greimann 
>> <vgreimann at key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net>> wrote:
>> Can we rephrase the responses to sound more neutral as to the result?
>>
>> 3.         Response to Question 3:  Does proposed requirement to 
>> label p/p registrations as such have an impact on the benefit or 
>> value of such registration and if what should be the result of this?  
>> (Comments 18, 25, 31)
>>
>> 4.            Response to Question 8:  Should providers be required 
>> to forward all disclosure requests to customers, unless prohibited by 
>> law?  (Comments 17, 29)  (I.e., should this feature of Annex E be 
>> made applicable to all disclosure requests, not just those relating 
>> to intellectual property?)
>>
>> 5.            Response to Question 8:  Should the option of 
>> registration cancellation in lieu of disclosure be maintained or 
>> prohibited?  (Comments 24, 31)
>> (Please also note that the cancellation of the registration may not 
>> even be a tool in the toolkit of the privacy provider, depending on 
>> his degree of integration with the registrar.)
>>
>> The law enforcement authority as discussed for the RAA was supposed 
>> to only include official state-run law enforcement bodies and such 
>> agencies designated by law with certain powers comparable to official 
>> LEAs. We have seen a small number of cases where the language was 
>> later used beyond what was intended to organizations that received no 
>> more than a latter from a government agency supporting that 
>> organizations work.
>> Our definition therefore should limit the scope of LEAs to that 
>> originally intended definition, not the unintended definition the 
>> language currently allows.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Volker
>>
>>
>> Am 14.08.2015 um 23:50 schrieb Metalitz, Steven:
>> Pursuant to Mary’s request, I suggest the following additional issues 
>> raised in comments contained in the public comment tool document 
>> summarized, for possible consideration by the WG:
>>
>> 3.            Response to Question 3:   Should the proposed 
>> requirement to label p/p registrations as such be dispensed with 
>> because it reduces the benefit or value of such registration? 
>> (Comments 18, 25, 31)
>>
>> 4.            Response to Question 8:  Should providers be required 
>> to forward all disclosure requests to customers, unless prohibited by 
>> law?  (Comments 17, 29)  (I.e., should this feature of Annex E be 
>> made applicable to all disclosure requests, not just those relating 
>> to intellectual property?)
>>
>> 5.            Response to Question 8:  Should the option of 
>> registration cancellation in lieu of disclosure be prohibited? 
>> (Comments 24, 31)
>>
>> In addition, with regard to issue #2 as summarized  below (“law 
>> enforcement authority” definition):  since the definition in our 
>> initial report was copied from the 2013 RAA, can any registrars in 
>> our group report on whether or not this definition has thus far 
>> caused difficulties in the RAA context (e.g., have there been 
>> problems in determining whether a complaint from a 
>> “quasi-governmental entity” should be handled under RAA section 
>> 3.18.2, with its 24-hour time limit, rather than under 3.18.1)?
>>
>> Steve Metalitz
>>
>> From: 
>> gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org> 
>> [mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org] On Behalf Of Mary Wong
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 11, 2015 4:04 PM
>> To: gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg at icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg at icann.org>
>> Subject: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Issue-spotting for the WG's preliminary 
>> recommendations
>>
>> Dear WG members,
>>
>> As noted on the WG call earlier today, please send to this your 
>> suggestions for issues arising out of specific public comments 
>> received on the WG’s Preliminary Recommendations #1 through #9 that 
>> you think should be discussed by the broader WG.
>>
>>  From the call today, two issues with Recommendation #1 were 
>> identified for WG consideration:
>>
>>    *   Whether the definitions include lawyers and law firms that 
>> provide proxy registration services for their clients other than as a 
>> primary business offering;
>>    *   The possible breadth/vagueness of the proposed definition of 
>> “law enforcement authority” as including quasi-governmental and other 
>> entities
>> Since the WG Public Comment Review Tool for these nine 
>> recommendations have been in circulation since 20 July, please treat 
>> this email as a “last call” for issue-spotting concerning these nine 
>> recommendations – as such, please send any issues you spot to this 
>> list by Friday 14 August. Please also indicate in your email which 
>> comment(s)/commenter(s) you are referring to as raising the issue(s) 
>> you identify. Note that, as confirmed during the WG call today, this 
>> exercise is for purposes of issue-spotting only at the moment rather 
>> than final resolution, which will depend on further discussions, as 
>> appropriate.
>>
>> Staff will compile the issues so identified for review by the WG on 
>> our next call.
>>
>> Thanks and cheers
>> Mary
>>
>> Mary Wong
>> Senior Policy Director
>> Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN)
>> Telephone: +1 603 574 4889<tel:%2B1%20603%20574%204889>
>> Email: mary.wong at icann.org<mailto:mary.wong at icann.org>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>>
>> -- 
>> Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
>>
>> Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
>>
>> Volker A. Greimann
>> - Rechtsabteilung -
>>
>> Key-Systems GmbH
>> Im Oberen Werk 1
>> 66386 St. Ingbert
>> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 
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>>
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>> --------------------------------------------
>>
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>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Volker A. Greimann
>> - legal department -
>>
>> Key-Systems GmbH
>> Im Oberen Werk 1
>> 66386 St. Ingbert
>> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 
>> 901<tel:%2B49%20%280%29%206894%20-%209396%20901>
>> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 
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>>
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>>
>> CEO: Alexander Siffrin
>> Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
>> V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
>>
>> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
>> www.keydrive.lu<http://www.keydrive.lu>
>>
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>> _______________________________________________
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>>
>>
>> -- 
>> Terri Stumme
>> Intelligence Analyst
>>
>>
>> -- 
>> Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
>>
>> Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
>>
>> Volker A. Greimann
>> - Rechtsabteilung -
>>
>> Key-Systems GmbH
>> Im Oberen Werk 1
>> 66386 St. Ingbert
>> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 
>> 901<tel:%2B49%20%280%29%206894%20-%209396%20901>
>> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 
>> 851<tel:%2B49%20%280%29%206894%20-%209396%20851>
>> Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net>
>>
>> Web: www.key-systems.net<http://www.key-systems.net> / 
>> www.RRPproxy.net<http://www.RRPproxy.net>
>> www.domaindiscount24.com<http://www.domaindiscount24.com> / 
>> www.BrandShelter.com<http://www.BrandShelter.com>
>>
>> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:
>> www.facebook.com/KeySystems<http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems>
>> www.twitter.com/key_systems<http://www.twitter.com/key_systems>
>>
>> Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin
>> Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
>> Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534
>>
>> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
>> www.keydrive.lu<http://www.keydrive.lu>
>>
>> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den 
>> angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, 
>> Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist 
>> unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so 
>> bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in 
>> Verbindung zu setzen.
>>
>> --------------------------------------------
>>
>> Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to 
>> contact us.
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Volker A. Greimann
>> - legal department -
>>
>> Key-Systems GmbH
>> Im Oberen Werk 1
>> 66386 St. Ingbert
>> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 
>> 901<tel:%2B49%20%280%29%206894%20-%209396%20901>
>> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 
>> 851<tel:%2B49%20%280%29%206894%20-%209396%20851>
>> Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net>
>>
>> Web: www.key-systems.net<http://www.key-systems.net> / 
>> www.RRPproxy.net<http://www.RRPproxy.net>
>> www.domaindiscount24.com<http://www.domaindiscount24.com> / 
>> www.BrandShelter.com<http://www.BrandShelter.com>
>>
>> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay 
>> updated:
>> www.facebook.com/KeySystems<http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems>
>> www.twitter.com/key_systems<http://www.twitter.com/key_systems>
>>
>> CEO: Alexander Siffrin
>> Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
>> V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
>>
>> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
>> www.keydrive.lu<http://www.keydrive.lu>
>>
>> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to 
>> whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any 
>> content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or 
>> rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has 
>> misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this 
>> e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -- 
>> Terri Stumme
>> Intelligence Analyst
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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