[Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] A slightly revised proposed approach for reviewing public comments
Volker Greimann
vgreimann at key-systems.net
Mon Jul 20 16:15:24 UTC 2015
Hi Paul,
I intended to post to the list, apologies if I misclicked.
I wanted to say that the truth is probably somewhere in the middle. No
one is served if the justice system takes months to process a simple
request, OTOH, this is not a reason for circumventing due process. Slow
justice is better than no justice or vigilantism.
I also think that the importance of the debate is of the essence here,
but that does not only include the interests of IP and trademark rights
holders but also those of those affected by anything we come up with,
i.e. civil society, private individuals and organizations, and their
rights and interests.
Best,
Volker
Am 20.07.2015 um 17:30 schrieb McGrady, Paul D.:
>
> Thanks Volker. I don’t think your comment appreciates the importance
> of the debate. Is there a reason that it was sent only to me and not
> to the list? Any object to me posting it on the list? Thanks.
>
> *From:*Volker Greimann [mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net]
> *Sent:* Monday, July 20, 2015 10:26 AM
> *To:* McGrady, Paul D.
> *Subject:* Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] A slightly revised proposed
> approach for reviewing public comments
>
> Hi Paul,
>
> it seems a good thing not to be in a common law country then, as over
> here usually a different axiom applies: "justice hurried along is bad
> justice". If a case is there, a court will be able to see that and
> issue an order. Getting injunctive relief can take as little as half a
> day.
>
> Best,
>
> Volker
>
>
> Am 20.07.2015 um 17:15 schrieb McGrady, Paul D.:
>
> Thanks Volker. I’m pretty sure it won’t do any good to get drawn
> into a conversation about the consequences of service providers
> being and permanently staying the RNH, since that is not what is
> really being discussed. The conversation has evolved well past
> that point and a long, long time ago.
>
> I would, however, appreciate your substantive thoughts on how we
> balance the need for consumers who are victims of scams and crime
> (even if those consumers don’t happen to be domain name
> registrants or P/P customers) within the “court order only”
> paradigm which on its face is woefully inadequate to bring about a
> timely remedy. It is now axiomatic in common law jurisdictions
> that “Justice delayed is justice denied.”
>
> I’m looking forward to your reply. Thanks for your time.
>
> Best,
>
> Paul
>
> *From:*Volker Greimann [mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net]
> *Sent:* Monday, July 20, 2015 9:03 AM
> *To:* McGrady, Paul D.; James Gannon; gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg at icann.org
> <mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg at icann.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] A slightly revised proposed
> approach for reviewing public comments
>
> Privacy or proxy services do not conflict with section 3.3.1.6 of
> the RAA (nor RA) as formally, the service provider is the RNH in a
> proxy form.
>
>
> Volker
>
> Am 20.07.2015 um 14:25 schrieb McGrady, Paul D.:
>
> Thanks James. The ship has already sailed on option a). See
> 3.3.1.6 of the RA noting the mandatory requirement of the
> disclosure of “The name and postal address of the Registered
> Name Holder.” What this team is discussing is how to develop
> an framework for exceptions to 3.3.1.6 that does not create a
> safe haven for human traffickers, cyber-bullies, and other
> nefarious types that would harm non-commercial users of the
> Internet. It is not within our remit to undo 3.3.1.6, no
> matter how many form comments are posted asking that we do
> so. Our remit is finding what circumstances warrant the
> exception through allowing WHOIS modification and which do
> not, the means to communicate to someone who is legitimately
> using such WHOIS modification services, and the terms upon
> which such allowable WHOIS modification will be terminated if
> it is being used to abuse others.
>
> Even if abolishing 3.3.1.6 were a possibility and the DNS
> wasn’t built on a series of contracts (which it is), I see no
> particular upside to telling parents of children being bullied
> online, geriatric victims of banking scams, and targets of
> pay-in-advance credit offers that they have to wait months
> while their local court order requiring disclosure makes its
> way through the Hague Convention service process in order to
> be effectuated by a far-away privacy service. Although we
> have heard much about protecting the rights of non-commercial
> users of the Internet who happen to be domain name registrants
> as well and who are using P/P services (and we should be
> concerned about them), we also need to keep in mind the other
> non-commercial users of the Internet who will also be affected
> – even if they have not contributed financially to the system
> by purchasing a domain name.
>
> I for one hope we can get back on track and discuss the
> substantive, relevant comments and reach final consensus on
> the handful of outstanding issues and get a report in to the
> GNSO that reflects a sensible balance.
>
> Regards,
>
> Paul
>
> *From:*gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org
> <mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org>
> [mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org] *On Behalf Of
> *James Gannon
> *Sent:* Monday, July 20, 2015 5:51 AM
> *To:* Volker Greimann; gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg at icann.org
> <mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg at icann.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] A slightly revised proposed
> approach for reviewing public comments
>
> Agreed Volker I would put my analysis in set A aswell.
>
> -James
>
> *From:*gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org
> <mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org>
> [mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org] *On Behalf Of
> *Volker Greimann
> *Sent:* Monday, July 20, 2015 11:37 AM
> *To:* gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg at icann.org
> <mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg at icann.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] A slightly revised proposed
> approach for reviewing public comments
>
> Hi Steve,
>
> these comments can be read in different ways:
>
> a) ICANN should not implement policy that requires disclosure
> without a court order, or
> b) no disclosure should be allowed without a court order.
>
> I tend to interpret the comments as being in the a) column.
>
> Best,
>
> Volker
>
> Am 17.07.2015 um 21:42 schrieb Metalitz, Steven:
>
> No, James, we should certainly consider those concerns but
> not necessarily change the report.
>
> The single concern raised more often than any other, I am
> positive, is that proxy services should not be permitted
> to disclose any information on their customer without a
> court order. That is not a standard that your service or
> any other that I know of can meet. We can change our
> report to make that a requirement for privacy/proxy
> service providers. Should we?
>
> Steve
>
> *From:*James M. Bladel [mailto:jbladel at godaddy.com]
> *Sent:* Friday, July 17, 2015 3:35 PM
> *To:* Metalitz, Steven
> *Cc:* Kathy Kleiman; gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg at icann.org
> <mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg at icann.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] A slightly revised
> proposed approach for reviewing public comments
>
> Steve:
>
> With respect, if several thousand commenters raised issues
> that concern them, but are not addressed by our report,
> the our focus should be on changing the report, not
> discounting the comments.
>
> Thank you,
>
> J.
>
> ____________
>
> James Bladel
>
> GoDaddy
>
>
> On Jul 17, 2015, at 21:20, Metalitz, Steven <met at msk.com
> <mailto:met at msk.com>> wrote:
>
> I am all in favor of people identifying topics they
> believe need to be addressed by the WG. However,
> Kathy, I have to disagree with your premise, which is
> that the ten thousand plus comments reflect responses
> to our questions or even statements of agreement or
> disagreement to our consensus positions or report
> proposals. A much smaller (though still significant)
> number of comments do that, and those should be our
> top priority for review and response. But the vast
> majority of comments clearly are not responses to our
> report. These mass comments raise a very limited
> number of issues, which I don’t think we will that
> much difficulty dealing with once we have addressed
> the responses to our questions and the reasoned
> statements of agreement or disagreement with specific
> proposals we have made.
>
> Let’s get started on the more substantive comments,
> starting with the questions we did pose. We have
> subteams forming to start to tackle that, and the
> staff (and Graeme!) are providing some tools to try to
> help facilitate that. For those who don’t wish to
> join subteams, again, I agree it would be useful to
> identify (as you put it) the “major issues and
> concerns” that you find in the comments, with
> citations to those comments that you believe raise
> those major issues and concerns.
>
> Steve
>
> *From:*gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org
> <mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org>
> [mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org] *On
> Behalf Of *Kathy Kleiman
> *Sent:* Thursday, July 16, 2015 6:34 PM
> *To:* gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg at icann.org
> <mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg at icann.org>
> *Subject:* [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] A slightly revised
> proposed approach for reviewing public comments
>
> Hi Don, Steve, Graeme, Mary and all WG members,
> I would like recommend that we take a slightly
> different approach. We received over ten thousand
> comments, many coming from those who do not ordinarily
> participate in the ICANN process. They wrote to us us
> not only in response to our specific questions, but
> also to share agreement (and disagreement) to our
> consensus positions/report proposals, and to explain
> why proxy/privacy registrations are important to them.
> There has been a huge outpouring particularly on the
> last issue.
>
> While a few topics for cataloging these comments were
> presented on the call, with great respect, I do not
> think we have dealt with or cataloged all of the major
> issues and concerns raised by the comments yet. Before
> we leap forward to subteams and analysis, shouldn't we
> ask further, in writing, and with the whole of the WG
> participating -- have we gotten the topics right? Have
> we created sufficient topics to allow us to catalog
> the broad range of information, concerns and comments
> shared with us by so many commenters?
>
> I would like to request that we be able to take big
> breath, and a slightly (only slightly!) different
> approach. In preparation for Tuesday's call, could we
> all skim the comments -- with our array of expertise,
> insight, knowledge of aspects of our commenter base --
> to come up with topics that we think the WG should
> evaluate in tour review? Perhaps if we can circulate
> the topics online, and then discuss them on Tuesday.
>
> Then we discuss how these topics/this substance might
> be overlaid on the subteam process laid out below and
> shared for the first time on last week's call. We will
> then have both substance and process! And we will know
> that we have considered all of the major issues
> arising from these important comments.
>
> If we go forward now without this evaluation, I fear
> we may be missing much of what the comments have to offer.
>
> Best and tx,
> Kathy
>
>
> *From:* gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org
> <mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org>
> [mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org] *On
> Behalf Of *Mary Wong
>
>
>
> *Sent:*14 July 2015 23:50
> *To:* gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg at icann.org
> <mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg at icann.org>
> *Subject:* [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] A proposed approach for
> reviewing public comments
>
> Dear WG members,
>
> Following from the WG call earlier today, the
> co-chairs and staff after some consultation would like
> to propose the following approach for your consideration:
>
> _1. Use of Sub Teams for Specific Topics_:
>
> * Sub-teams comprising a few WG volunteers each can
> be formed to do the initial review of public
> comments received on the three topics suggested by
> Steve on the call, i.e. (1) Section 1.3.2 of the
> Initial Report (on escalation of relay requests
> and the handling of disclosure/publication
> requests from third parties other than IP rights
> holders); (2) Section 1.3.3 (on the open question
> regarding online financial transactions); and (3)
> Annex E (the Illustrative Disclosure Framework).
> * To assist the WG evaluate the usefulness of sub
> teams, a sub team for Section 1.3.2 can be formed
> first and serve as a “test case” for the exercise.
> * As outlined on the call, a sub team will do a
> “first pass” through a template, based on the
> Public Comment Review Tool, that staff will
> populate with all the input received on that
> particular issue. The sub team will report back to
> the full WG in a timely fashion, including
> suggesting a WG response and/or proposed action in
> relation to the comments received.
> * Sub teams may elect to do their work via email and
> online tools (e.g. Google Docs or a wiki page),
> with or without supplemental conference calls. Any
> calls will be recorded and transcribed for
> transparency purposes, and drafts and other
> documents prepared using online tools will also be
> made available to the full WG. (Do note, however,
> that depending on call scheduling and timing,
> staff support may not be available for all
> requested calls if several sub teams are used
> concurrently.)
>
> *PLEASE VOLUNTEER FOR SUB TEAM 1.3.2 IF YOU ARE
> INTERESTED IN ASSISTING WITH THIS INITIAL REVIEW.
> *Staff will endeavor to provide the template tool for
> 1.3.2 to the sub team as soon as possible, hopefully
> by Monday.
>
> _2. Full WG Review of Other Comments to Continue in
> Parallel_:
>
> * Staff will “collapse” (per James’ suggestion on
> the call) all those template responses received
> that were simply a Yes or No answer to a question,
> without any further comment added – these will be
> reflected in the Public Comment Review Tool
> accordingly, as a single collective entry. The
> current Tool (covering Preliminary Recommendations
> 1 through 9) will be updated in time for the WG to
> begin this review on the next call.
>
> _3. Collated Information_:
>
> * In addition to the updated spreadsheet just
> circulated by Graeme, we can also send you
> archived mail files of the contributions received
> to the public comment forum, should you or your
> group wish to conduct searches through each
> comment yourselves.
>
> We hope the above will be helpful in facilitating good
> progress on the work to be done in preparation for the
> Final Report.
>
> Thanks and cheers
>
> Mary
>
> Mary Wong
>
> Senior Policy Director
>
> Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN)
>
> Telephone: +1 603 574 4889
>
> Email: mary.wong at icann.org <mailto:mary.wong at icann.org>
>
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> Volker A. Greimann
>
> - Rechtsabteilung -
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> www.keydrive.lu <http://www.keydrive.lu>
>
> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
>
> --------------------------------------------
>
> Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Volker A. Greimann
> - legal department -
>
> Key-Systems GmbH
> Im Oberen Werk 1
> 66386 St. Ingbert
> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
> Email:vgreimann at key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net>
>
> Web:www.key-systems.net <http://www.key-systems.net> /www.RRPproxy.net <http://www.RRPproxy.net>
> www.domaindiscount24.com <http://www.domaindiscount24.com> /www.BrandShelter.com <http://www.BrandShelter.com>
>
> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:
> www.facebook.com/KeySystems <http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems>
> www.twitter.com/key_systems <http://www.twitter.com/key_systems>
>
> CEO: Alexander Siffrin
> Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
> V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
>
> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
> www.keydrive.lu <http://www.keydrive.lu>
>
> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
>
>
>
>
> The contents of this message may be privileged and confidential.
> Therefore, if this message has been received in error, please delete
> it without reading it. Your receipt of this message is not intended to
> waive any applicable privilege. Please do not disseminate this message
> without the permission of the author.
--
Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Volker A. Greimann
- Rechtsabteilung -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net
Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net
www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com
Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:
www.facebook.com/KeySystems
www.twitter.com/key_systems
Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin
Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
www.keydrive.lu
Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
--------------------------------------------
Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
Best regards,
Volker A. Greimann
- legal department -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net
Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net
www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com
Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:
www.facebook.com/KeySystems
www.twitter.com/key_systems
CEO: Alexander Siffrin
Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
www.keydrive.lu
This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
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