[Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Updated document re disclosure standards - some comments and concerns

Kathy Kleiman kathy at kathykleiman.com
Mon Mar 2 22:59:23 UTC 2015

Hi All,

First, thank you, Steve, Graeme and All. I know a lot of people have 
spent a lot of time in the IP and Registrar Communities working on this 
draft. Tx you – and appreciate your invitation to comments and concerns!

I have reviewed the Draft carefully and have some initial comments to 
share.Although I spoke with people in the WG while preparing them, these 
comments are my own.(If there is problem with the formatting below, 
please let me know.)

1.General Comments

a.`Let’s make the wording more neutral. Let’s add “alleged” or “claimed” 
in all references of infringement (e.g., trademarks, copyrights of 
domain names/websites. Another good term would be “claimed infringement” 
-- which is the one used in similar sections of the Digital Millennium 
Copyright Act to the sections we are working on here.

2.More substantive comments

a.Are we missing levels of protections for the Customer/Registrant?In 
the Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA), there were two levels of 
protections for the “users.”

i.The first was sanctions for misrepresentation. Basically, any company 
which knowingly materially misrepresents that material or activity is 
infringing is liable for damages, including costs and attorney fees 
caused from injury resulting from the misrepresentation. Don’t we need 
similar sanctions here?

ii.A much higher bar for revealing the identity of the alleged 
infringer. The DMCA allows rapid takedown based on statements very 
similar to the one we proposing, but Reveal is a whole different 
story.The standard is much higher and goes through Court. Thus US 
Copyright Code, Sec 512(h), requires a subpoena to reveal data:


`(1) REQUEST- A copyright owner or a person authorized to act on the 
owner's behalf may request the clerk of any United States district court 
to issue a subpoena to a service provider for identification of an 
alleged infringer in accordance with this subsection…

Shouldn’t we have a higher standard too?It seems important to balance 
the rights of both sides, including whether the Allegation of Illegality 
sufficiently outweighs the Privacy Interests and Rights of the Battered 
Women’s Shelter, Online Magazine or Bloggers posting unpopular views of 

iii.A deep concern about default. As I read the rules, if you don’t 
respond, you lose and your data is revealed.But this is a problem 
because we can think of many reasons why Customers/Registrants would not 
respond. For example:

a.Request came at the beginning of August,

b.Request disappeared into spam;

c.Registrant/Customer is unable to respond (perhaps language barriers); 

d.Registrant/Customer is scared to respond.

2.I would submit that in something as important as revealing identity 
and physical locations, there should be no automatic default. It is 
completely possible that a) the allegations are incorrect on their face 
(no jurisdictional overlap, for example), or b) that there are clear 
defenses on “its face,” e.g., on the website.

Thus, an anti-bullying group may post the copyrighted logo of a gang 
engaging in bullying (or worse) in a local school or neighborhood; is 
so, the gang’s allegation of copyright infringement could be clearly 
weighed against the “safe neighborhoods for all” activity taking place 
on the website.

Similarly, an online publication in Europe may have every right to use 
the logo and trademark of a large multinational it is criticizing, or 
the image of Mohammed, without having its identity and address revealed 
without due process.

Ditto for a battered women’s shelter posting a copyright logo, motto or 
design and urging women to watch for it and those bearing it.

Due process is not automatic default, but a full and fair review of the 
website and other reachable information, even if the Customer/Registrant 
is unable to respond for herself or himself.

3.Option: we might consider Third Party or Independent Review. This is 
something that Steve and Graeme’s draft have already suggested for 
rejections of IP Owner Requests. It could serve Customers too by 
creating a review of default situations – or perhaps an independent 
forum for Service Providers who choose to outsource this difficult 

iv.Privacy of communication between Customers and their Providers . The 
rules of Section III(A) seem to bar private communication with your 
Provider. Everything a Customer/Registrant might write to their Provider 
must be passed on verbatim (if I read this correctly).But that’s a 
problem for those with English as a second language (or third) or those 
without lawyers, and those simply trying to explain in clear and 
informal language to explain this situation. 0What will happen, I am 
concerned, is that whatever informal response a Customer provides to its 
Provider will operate (unintended) as an Admission Against Interest or 
an unintended Waiver.

Further, the Customer/Registrant might inadvertently reveal a bit about 
their identity or even location – trying to explain their position 
clearly to the Provider – and this should not be passed on to the 
Requester automatically either. I am not sure of th answer here as IP 
Owners should know something about the response, but not necessarily the 
full communication of the Customer (e.g., he is stalking me).

Thanks for reading!



On 3/2/2015 9:54 AM, Metalitz, Steven wrote:
> PPSAI WG members,
> Attached please find an updated version of the document Graeme and I 
> circulated prior to last week’s meeting.  This updated version 
> includes three or four wording tweaks, intended to reflect the 
> discussion on last week’s call.  Looking forward to further discussion 
> on tomorrow’s call.
> Steve Metalitz
> *From: *<Metalitz>, Steven <met at msk.com <mailto:met at msk.com>>
> *Date: *Monday, February 23, 2015 at 11:57
> *To: *"'PPSAI (gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg at icann.org 
> <mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg at icann.org>)'" <gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg at icann.org 
> <mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg at icann.org>>
> *Subject: *Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Category F -- updated status report 
> and text for discussion
>     PPSAI WG members,
>     This follows up on our note of Feb. 3 providing a status report on
>     subgroup  discussions among some IP interests and p/p service
>     providers regarding p/p disclosure standards.  To reiterate, the
>     group’s work is not meant to obviate or displace the work of the
>     larger PPSAI WG on this issue – rather, it is meant to
>     constructively contribute to the discussion by producing one
>     proposal on this issue for the larger group’s consideration.
>     In light of further consideration and of the need to move forward
>     the WG discussion on Category F, we present the attached document
>     that we hope will help provide a framework for discussion of the
>     disclosure issue in the WG.  We emphasize that this is not a
>     proposal from IPC, the Registrar Stakeholder Group, or any subset
>     of either, and that we fully anticipate the text to be modified
>     and improved through further discussion at the WG level. (We also
>     acknowledge that the WG may find the proposal wholly
>     unsatisfactory but hope that it will at least help advance debate.)
>     The attached is put forward as a starting point, to use
>     intellectual property infringement complaints as one illustrative
>     example of minimum disclosure standards, in a framework that
>     addresses  (1) a service provider process for intake of requests;
>     (2) general templates that requests would have to meet in order to
>     trigger service provider action; and (3) principles governing
>     service provider action in response to a conforming request.
>     We look forward to the discussion of this document among WG members.
>     Graeme Bunton
>     Steve Metalitz
>     *From:*Metalitz, Steven
>     *Sent:* Tuesday, February 03, 2015 3:57 PM
>     *To:* PPSAI (gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg at icann.org
>     <mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg at icann.org>)
>     *Subject:* Category F -- status report
>     Dear WG colleagues,
>     As you know, several PPSAI Working Group members, including
>     representatives of the IPC and privacy and proxy service
>     providers, have endeavored to develop a collaborative proposal on
>     the minimum standards for disclosure (Category F). The group’s
>     work is not meant to obviate or displace the work of the larger
>     group on this issue – rather, it is meant to constructively
>     contribute to the discussion by producing one proposal on this
>     issue for the larger group’s consideration. This is an update on
>     this sub-group’s progress.
>     But first, a little background: At the face-to-face meeting of the
>     PPSAI Working Group in Los Angeles on October 10, 2014, one
>     important topic was minimum standards for disclosure of contact
>     information of customers of privacy/proxy services who may or may
>     not be using their private domain name registrations to carry out
>     infringing or other abusive activities.
>     Prior to the face-to-face meeting, IPC participants in the Working
>     Group circulated a proposal on this topic.  A responsive redline
>     was circulated to the WG by Volker Greimann.
>     Following extensive discussion of these proposals and of the topic
>     in general at the face-to-face meeting, a sub-group of WG
>     participants have continued this discussion.  The sub-group
>     includes participants from the IPC and privacy/proxy service
>     providers. Meeting by teleconference and working over e-mail, the
>     sub-group has sought to develop a text that could be jointly
>     presented to the PPSAI Working Group as a framework for further
>     discussion on the issue of standards for disclosure.
>     Some progress has been made, and the sub-group is continuing its
>     efforts with the goal of producing a document for presentation to
>     the PPSAI Working Group as soon after the Singapore ICANN meeting
>     as feasible.  If such a document is completed, it is hoped that it
>     would be a constructive contribution to eventual WG approval of a
>     set of recommendations on “Category F” for inclusion in the Draft
>     Report of the WG.
>     Unlike the documents discussed by the full WG last October, the
>     framework under discussion does not purport to establish a single
>     general policy for when disclosure of contact information in cases
>     of alleged abusive activities would be available.  Instead, it
>     seeks to focus more narrowly on intellectual property infringement
>     complaints as one illustrative example of minimum disclosure
>     standards.  The framework would describe (1) a service provider
>     process for intake of requests; (2) general templates that
>     requests would have to meet in order to trigger service provider
>     action; and (3) principles governing service provider action in
>     response to a conforming request.  While considerable progress has
>     been made in the first two areas, a number of critical issues
>     remain to be resolved in the third area, and discussion has not
>     been concluded on any of the areas.
>     The expressed common goal of the discussion group participants is
>     a framework that would give requestors a higher degree of
>     certainty and predictability as to if, when and how they could
>     obtain what level of disclosure; that would preserve for service
>     providers a sufficient degree of flexibility and discretion in
>     acting upon requests for disclosure; and that would include
>     reasonable safeguards and procedures to protect the legitimate
>     interests of customers of accredited proxy/privacy service
>     providers.  Of course, balancing these interests is the difficult
>     task before our working group. As stated, participants in the
>     discussion group hope to be able to make a constructive
>     contribution to the WG’s efforts to do so.
>     Graeme Bunton
>     Steve Metalitz
> _______________________________________________
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