<div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;color:#073763">No problem at all, Don. :) Thanks for the input. As I mentioned, we are finalizing some specific input and recommended edits, but felt that some additional background context might be helpful prior to that first, also in the context of Gema's earlier email. My apologies for the delay on the specifics. Safe travels. </div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all"><div><div dir="ltr"><font color="#073763" face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif">John Horton<br>President, LegitScript</font><div> <img src="https://static.legitscript.com/assets/logo-smaller-cdb8a6f307ce2c6172e72257dc6dfc34.png" width="96" height="21"><br>
<div><div><p style="margin:0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px;font:12.0px Helvetica"><br></p><p style="margin:0px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-size:12px;line-height:normal;font-family:Helvetica"><b><font color="#444444">Follow</font><font color="#0b5394"> </font><font color="#000000">Legit</font><font color="#0b5394">Script</font></b>: <a href="http://www.linkedin.com/company/legitscript-com" style="font-weight:normal" target="_blank"><font color="#cc0000">LinkedIn</font></a> | <a href="https://www.facebook.com/LegitScript" style="font-weight:normal" target="_blank"><font color="#6aa84f">Facebook</font></a> | <a href="https://twitter.com/legitscript" style="font-weight:normal" target="_blank"><font color="#674ea7">Twitter</font></a> | <a href="https://www.youtube.com/user/LegitScript" style="font-weight:normal" target="_blank"><font color="#bf9000">YouTube</font></a> | <font color="#ff9900"><u><a href="http://blog.legitscript.com" target="_blank">Blog</a></u></font> |<font color="#ff9900"> <font style="font-weight:normal"><a href="https://plus.google.com/112436813474708014933/posts" target="_blank">Google+</a></font></font></p>
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<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Jan 7, 2014 at 7:31 AM, Don Blumenthal <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:dblumenthal@pir.org" target="_blank">dblumenthal@pir.org</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div style="font-size:14px;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;word-wrap:break-word">
<div>I apologize for this note. I intended to add more to complete my intended point, which I will do later, but must have triggered Send when I put my phone in the airport security bin..</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Don</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<span>
<div style="border-right:medium none;padding-right:0in;padding-left:0in;padding-top:3pt;text-align:left;font-size:11pt;border-bottom:medium none;font-family:Calibri;border-top:#b5c4df 1pt solid;padding-bottom:0in;border-left:medium none">
<span style="font-weight:bold">From: </span>Don Blumenthal <<a href="mailto:dblumenthal@pir.org" target="_blank">dblumenthal@pir.org</a>><br>
<span style="font-weight:bold">Date: </span>Tuesday, January 7, 2014 at 10:14 AM<br>
<span style="font-weight:bold">To: </span>Michele Blacknight <<a href="mailto:michele@blacknight.com" target="_blank">michele@blacknight.com</a>><br>
<span style="font-weight:bold">Cc: </span>PPSAI <<a href="mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org" target="_blank">gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org</a>><div><div><br>
<span style="font-weight:bold">Subject: </span>Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] EWG privacy & proxy survey: draft questions<br>
</div></div></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div><div><div>
<div style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<div>But at least Gems made some substantive points, and suggested some letter edits in another post.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>In airport security. Hope to have time to join the call. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Sent from my phone</div>
<br>
<div>----- Reply message -----<br>
From: "John Horton" <<a href="mailto:john.horton@legitscript.com" target="_blank">john.horton@legitscript.com</a>><br>
To: "Michele Neylon - Blacknight" <<a href="mailto:michele@blacknight.com" target="_blank">michele@blacknight.com</a>><br>
Cc: "<a href="mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org" target="_blank">gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org</a>" <<a href="mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org" target="_blank">gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org</a>><br>
Subject: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] EWG privacy &amp; proxy survey: draft questions<br>
Date: Tue, Jan 7, 2014 10:04 AM</div>
</div>
<br>
</div></div><div><div><div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;color:#073763">
Hi Michele,</div>
<div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;color:#073763">
<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;color:#073763">
Thanks. Nope, my intent wasn't to ask a question or suggest concrete action at this point -- we'll certainly have some of those later! As Gema did, I wanted to provide some contextual background on the jurisdictional issue. </div>
<div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;color:#073763">
<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;color:#073763">
Thanks,</div>
</div>
</div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><div><div><br clear="all">
<div>
<div dir="ltr"><font color="#073763" face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">John Horton<br>
President, LegitScript</font>
<div> <img src="https://static.legitscript.com/assets/logo-smaller-cdb8a6f307ce2c6172e72257dc6dfc34.png" width="96" height="21"><br>
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</p>
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<b><font color="#444444">Follow</font><font color="#0b5394"> </font><font color="#000000">Legit</font><font color="#0b5394">Script</font></b>:
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<br>
<br>
</div></div><div class="gmail_quote"><div><div>On Tue, Jan 7, 2014 at 3:05 AM, Michele Neylon - Blacknight
<span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:michele@blacknight.com" target="_blank">michele@blacknight.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
</div></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div lang="EN-US">
<div><div><div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">John<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">You’ve given an example of an issue, but unless I’m missing something you haven’t actually asked a specific question or suggested any action?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Or if you have, as I said, I missed it<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Regards<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Michele<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">--<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Mr Michele Neylon<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Blacknight Solutions<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><a href="http://www.technology.ie" target="_blank">http://www.technology.ie</a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Intl.
<a href="tel:%2B353%20%280%29%2059%C2%A0%209183072" value="+353599183072" target="_blank">
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Fax.
<a href="tel:%2B353%20%280%29%201%204811%20763" value="+35314811763" target="_blank">
+353 (0) 1 4811 763</a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Twitter:
<a href="http://twitter.com/mneylon" target="_blank">http://twitter.com/mneylon</a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">-------------------------------<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,Sleaty<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,Ireland Company No.: 370845<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><a href="mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org" target="_blank">gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org</a>
[mailto:<a href="mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org" target="_blank">gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>John Horton<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, January 6, 2014 8:54 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Metalitz, Steven<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org" target="_blank">gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org</a></span></p>
<div><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] EWG privacy & proxy survey: draft questions<u></u><u></u></div>
<p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div></div><div><div><div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(7,55,99)">Also with apologies for my delay, I wanted to echo Gema's concerns (speaking both in my current role and also as a former prosecutor), and provide another real-life illustration
that, I hope, will be helpful context. <u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(7,55,99)"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(7,55,99)">First, as background: my company, LegitScript, works with many registrars (and search engines, e-commerce platforms, etc.) to identify and submit notification about "rogue"
Internet pharmacies -- websites masquerading as pharmacies but with no valid (or forged) pharmacy licenses; selling falsified drugs; selling drugs without a prescription, and so forth. This is not only illegal, but can lead to (and has led to) illness or death.
We are not a government agency, but are <a href="http://www.legitscript.com/download/NABP_Recognition_LegitScript_International_Internet_Pharmacy_Standards_2012.pdf" target="_blank">
endorsed</a> on behalf of those government regulatory authorities in some countries to submit notifications to registrars and for registrars to terminate services (including, where appropriate, privacy/proxy services) to registrants engaged in this illicit
activity. We have found that most registrars are responsible and take voluntary action to ensure that their services are not being used by criminals, who -- unfortunately -- do rely heavily on anonymous Whois services. <u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(7,55,99)"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(7,55,99)">As Gema indicates, cybercriminals are adept in using the fundamentally "jurisdictionless" aspect of the Internet, combined with some registrars' insistence on a court
order from their jurisdiction, to create a "safe haven" resulting in a practical inability of any law enforcement agency anywhere to take any action at all. The insistence on a court order, as opposed to taking voluntary action based on one's terms and conditions,
plays right into the hands of criminals, because it is quite easy to choose a registrar in a jurisdiction where it will be almost impossible for any court to ever issue an order -- at least, in the area of "rogue pharma." Here is a real-life example that we
deal with every day. (The countries below are merely illustrative examples; they can be easily replaced with other countries.)<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<ul type="disc">
<li class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(7,55,99)">A website is selling fake or toxic drugs (or drugs without a prescription, falsely posing as a pharmacy, etc.) targeting the residents of Country "A." (For illustrative
purposes, we will say to the US, but this is not a US-only problem.)</span><u></u><u></u></li><li class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(7,55,99)">The registrar is in, say, the United Kingdom. </span><u></u><u></u></li>
<li class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(7,55,99)">The registrant is in Russia. </span><u></u><u></u></li><li class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(7,55,99)">The content is being hosted in Japan. </span><u></u><u></u></li>
<li class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(7,55,99)">The fake drugs are shipped from Pakistan.</span><u></u><u></u></li><li class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(7,55,99)">The fake drugs are only being marketed to the US -- not to the UK, Russia, Pakistan or Japan.</span><u></u><u></u></li>
</ul>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(7,55,99)">We submit an abuse notification to the registrar, who says that they require a court order from the UK -- the registrar's jurisdiction -- to take any action. As a practical
matter, it is impossible to ever get a court order. Here's why:</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<ul type="disc">
<li class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(7,55,99)">The drugs are not being marketed to the UK. One cannot point to a violation of UK drug safety laws, since the drugs never enter the UK. (Put differently, one cannot ask
a court in "Country A" to issue an order based on a violation of the laws in Country "B".) So, the registrar is insisting upon an impossibility. </span><u></u><u></u></li><li class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(7,55,99)">If the registrar says, "Go talk to the ISP; it's not our problem," there is also no violation of that country's laws. And, for reasons I can explain another time, it
is wholly ineffective to complain to content hosting companies. (And, of course, the content host has nothing to do with the Whois record, if that is the issue.)</span><u></u><u></u></li><li class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(7,55,99)">Law enforcement in the registrant's country -- in our example, Russia -- similarly has no jurisidction. Why? Because the drugs come from and are targeted at other countries.
No violation of Russian drug safety or medicine laws exists unless the drugs are actually shipped into Russia. </span><u></u><u></u></li><li class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(7,55,99)">Similarly, drug laws in most countries are such that the law of the country where the drugs are shipped from may not be violated if no customers are there. </span><u></u><u></u></li>
<li class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(7,55,99)">And also similarly, law enforcement can generally only seek and receive a court order against an entity located in the court's jurisdiction. (Put differently, a court
in the US has no jurisdiction over a registrar in the UK: the registrar can simply ignore the court order, so most courts will not even issue the order.)</span><u></u><u></u></li></ul>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(7,55,99)">You can see here that nobody anywhere has the ability to issue or receive a binding court order. This is not merely a rare example; it is a very common fact pattern we
see with rogue Internet pharmacies: to choose a registrar that is not in the jurisdiction where the drugs come from, are sold to, or where the registrant is located, so that if -- as the rogue Internet pharmacy hopes -- the registrar insists on a court order
before taking any action, the criminal can rest comfortably knowing that it will never be possible. We deal with this type of circumstance -- again, the countries change depending on the website -- multiple times each day. </span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(7,55,99)">Again, many registrars we work with understand the conundrum presented above, and take voluntary action upon a showing that the website is being used in furtherance of
this sort of activity, irrespective of jurisdiction. We continue to encourage registrars to develop internal anti-abuse policies in this area that clarify the circumstances in which they will take voluntary action. </span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(7,55,99)">I hope that the illustration above is also helpful and on-point and not outside of the scope of this group; please do not hesitate to let me know if not. (The example
does relate to broader anti-abuse issues, but also to the question of privacy/proxy services.) Please do not hesitate to contact me should you require any clarification or have any questions. </span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div></div><div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br clear="all">
<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(7,55,99)">John Horton<br>
President, LegitScript</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <img border="0" width="96" height="21" src="https://static.legitscript.com/assets/logo-smaller-cdb8a6f307ce2c6172e72257dc6dfc34.png"><u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><b><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif;color:rgb(68,68,68)">Follow</span></b><b><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif;color:rgb(11,83,148)"></span></b><b><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">Legit</span></b><b><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif;color:rgb(11,83,148)">Script</span></b><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">:
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</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div><div><div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Mon, Jan 6, 2014 at 8:16 AM, Metalitz, Steven <<a href="mailto:met@msk.com" target="_blank">met@msk.com</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">With apologies for delay, I echo Don’s response, and submit that the issues Gema raises go to the center of our task.
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Steve Metalitz</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif"><a href="mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org" target="_blank">gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org</a>
[mailto:<a href="mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org" target="_blank">gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Don Blumenthal<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, December 21, 2013 2:38 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Campillos Gonzalez, Gema Maria; <a href="mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org" target="_blank">
gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org</a></span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] EWG privacy & proxy survey: draft questions<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Gema,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Thanks very much for your very thorough and interesting post. I appreciate your comments, which definitely are not out of scope at all. </span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Regards,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Don</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:12.75pt"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif">=========================</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:12.75pt"><b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">DON M. BLUMENTHAL, Esq.</span></b><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:12.75pt"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;color:#1f497d">Senior Policy Advisor, Public Interest Registry</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:12.75pt"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;color:#1f497d"><a href="mailto:dblumenthal@pir.org" target="_blank">dblumenthal@pir.org</a></span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:12.75pt"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;color:#1f497d">Office:
<a href="tel:%2B1%20734%20418-8242" target="_blank">+1 734 418-8242</a> | Mobile:
<a href="tel:%2B1%20202%20431-0874" target="_blank">+1 202 431-0874</a> | Skype: donblumenthal | </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:12.75pt"><span style="font-size:9.0pt"><a href="http://www.pir.org/" target="_blank"><span style="color:#942193">www.pir.org</span></a><span style="color:#1f497d"> | </span><a href="http://www.facebook.com/pir.org" target="_blank"><span style="color:#942193">Facebook</span></a> | <a href="http://twitter.com/PIRegistry" target="_blank"><span style="color:#942193">Twitter</span></a> | <a href="http://instagram.com/piregistry" target="_blank"><span style="color:#942193">Instagram</span></a> | <a href="http://www.youtube.com/PIRegistry" target="_blank"><span style="font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif;color:rgb(149,79,114)">YouTube</span></a></span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">From:
</span></b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">"<Campillos Gonzalez>", Gema Maria <<a href="mailto:GCAMPILLOS@minetur.es" target="_blank">GCAMPILLOS@minetur.es</a>><br>
<b>Date: </b>Thursday, December 19, 2013 at 2:27 PM<br>
<b>To: </b>"<a href="mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org" target="_blank">gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org</a>" <<a href="mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org" target="_blank">gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org</a>><br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] EWG privacy & proxy survey: draft questions</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="ES" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Dear all,
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="ES" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">First of all, I introduce myself. My name is Gema Campillos and I´m a civil servant in Spain. My current position is Deputy Director on Information
Society Services (in the Ministry of Industry, Energy and Tourism) and I represent my country at the GAC. I would like to stress from the outset that I´m not a representative for the GAC in this GNSO working group.
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">My interest in participating in this WG comes from the hurdles proxy and privacy services suppose for the exercise or supervisory powers over service
providers subject to Spanish law. They may serve legitimate purposes, like preventing spam or phishing attacks, or even prosecution in countries with limited freedom of speech, but in my experience, proxy and privacy services are overwhelmingly used by infringers
of consumer protection and intellectual property laws. </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">We oversee websites addressing the Spanish market. The Ministry of Education, Culture and Sports supervise websites violating IPRs of right holders
in Spain as well. They all have to comply with Spanish law. But, some of them choose to move to other locations to escape from public authorities control (their servers are located outside, their hosting providers are beyond our frontiers…), they hide behind
“straw men” or hire a privacy or proxy service in another country to replace their Whois information. But, they still target the residents in Spain by providing information in Spanish, pricing in euros, displaying adverts of Spanish companies, etc.
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Some of the privacy and proxy services also spread their reach to foreign markets. Godaddy is a conspicuous instance. It detects you access the Internet
through an IP address in Spain and directs you to <a href="http://es.godaddy.com" target="_blank">
http://es.godaddy.com</a>. There, information is given in Spanish with a local telephone number for assistance. Those also fall within the scope of Spanish Law 34/2002, of 11 July, on Information Society Services and E-Commerce.
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">We have addressed proxy and privacy services on several occasions to request them to reveal to us the identity of the domain name holder, but they
have refused to do so, arguing that they can only disclose that information to “law enforcement agencies” (aren´t we one of those?) or to “a state or federal court located in the United States”. If we were to seek a court order to be conveyed to foreign courts,
recognized and executed by them, which we are not obliged to do according to our national law, the website at issue could have disappeared by then and our action would be useless. I enclose two sample answers. *I hope the companies named in this e-mail and
in the examples don´t take offence. I do not have any animosity against them. </span>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">To be fair, I must confess that IP providers, hosting services… also make this kind of excuse sometimes. Vey often they don´t even respond to our
requests. </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">The Internet grants providers, however small they are, the ability to sell or offer information globally. But, I think that when you benefit from
access to a market you must be obliged to abide by its rules as well (in the EU we apply the “country of origin” principle to the Internet except for consumer protection and some other exceptions since there´s a high level of harmonization among us). This
rule of thumb in the physical world is not respected on the Internet to the detriment of recipients of services in local markets. A company doing business internationally should be able to cooperate with local authorities. Otherwise, it is helping infringers
of local laws to pursue their illegal activities. </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">I understand verifying the authenticity of public authorities requests when a company provides its services worldwide, the competence of that authority
to issue that request and ascertaining the information is not going to be used against human rights treaties cannot be automated like all the processes of registries, registrars and other Internet service providers. But, they should do something to cooperate
with public authorities. In this regard, I draw your attention to the Internet & Jurisdiction project (<a href="http://www.internetjurisdiction.net" target="_blank">http://www.internetjurisdiction.net</a>) that is undertaking the challenge to devise a protocol
based on self-regulation to overcome the barriers jurisdiction limits pose to law enforcement efforts.
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Sorry for this long message. You might come to the conclusion at the end of it that my concerns are outside the scope of this WG. In this case, please
let me know and I won´t bother you anymore. </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">I attach the questionnaire for the EWG with some questions –the ones I can answered- filled in.
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">As we are almost in Christmas, I wish you enjoy this season and have a happy new year.
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Gema Campillos</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Deputy Director of Information Society Services
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Secretary of State for Telecommunications and Information Society</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="ES" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Telf: 34 91 346 15 97</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="ES" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">SPAIN</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif">De:</span></b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif"> g</span><span lang="ES" style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif"><a href="mailto:nso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org" target="_blank">nso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org</a>
[<a href="mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org" target="_blank">mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org</a>]
<b>En nombre de </b>Mary Wong<br>
<b>Enviado el:</b> miércoles, 18 de diciembre de 2013 0:46<br>
<b>Para:</b> <a href="mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org" target="_blank">gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org</a><br>
<b>Asunto:</b> [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] EWG privacy & proxy survey: draft questions</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="ES" style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Dear Working Group members,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="ES" style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Please find attached the draft questions that were discussed during the WG call earlier today. As mentioned, the Expert Working Group intends to send out the final
text and questions by mid-January, and as such feedback and suggestions from this WG should be sent to them no later than
<b>Friday 10 January 2014</b>. To expedite WG discussion and finalization of feedback, we suggest inserting any comments you may have in the attached document. In order to facilitate discussion at the next WG call on
<b>Tuesday 7 January 2014</b>, please send your annotated document to me as soon as you can – staff will collate all responses received for the 7 January call. In the interest of expediency, you may wish to indicate that your comments are made in your personal
capacity should it prove difficult to obtain your constituency/stakeholder group/community's feedback and sign-off in the timeline within which we are working.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="ES" style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Since waiting to start and finish all WG discussions about this survey in that single call on 7 January is an ambitious undertaking, however, it would be tremendously
helpful if comments, questions and thoughts could be posted to this mailing list between now and then. For example, you may wish to circulate your written comments on the questions to the list to kickstart discussions or raise concerns about particular questions. </span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="ES" style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">For the most effective and efficient use of your time, you may wish also to focus on commenting on the scope and substance of each draft question rather than redrafting
them. The EWG also welcomes feedback on the types of questions that should be asked and that are missing from the current draft.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="ES" style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Thank you all for an excellent discussion today – and happy holidays to you and yours!</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="ES" style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="ES" style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Cheers</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="ES" style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Mary</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="ES" style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="ES" style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Mary Wong</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="ES" style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Senior Policy Director</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="ES" style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN)</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="ES" style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Telephone:
<a href="tel:%2B1%20603%20574%204892" target="_blank">+1 603 574 4892</a></span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="ES" style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Email:
<a href="mailto:mary.wong@icann.org" target="_blank">mary.wong@icann.org</a></span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="ES" style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="ES" style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">* One World. One Internet. *</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<div>_______________________________________________<br>
Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org" target="_blank">Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org</a><br>
<a href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg" target="_blank">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg</a><u></u><u></u></div>
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<br>_______________________________________________<br>
Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org" target="_blank">Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org</a><br>
<a href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg" target="_blank">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg</a><br></blockquote></div><br></div></div>