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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Hi all,<br>
<br>
to respond to John's comments:<br>
<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CADW+eutjq0_eox-_6ZD85JZBBdU5eAcXwsRvj4WVNrJ8Ag_wKA@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr"><br>
<div class="gmail_default">
<ul>
<li><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif"
color="#073763">When an allegation of illegal activity
is submitted to the p/p service provider, it is
important to understand that it may be coming from a
victim of the crime. </font></li>
</ul>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<font color="#073763"><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif">When
an allegation of illegal activity is submitted, it is important
to understand that it may be coming from someone who merely
claims to vbe a victim of a crime, but is in fact not. </font></font>The
purposes for which someone may want to see the underlying registrant
data are multifold and many of them are with the intent to later
harass the privacy service user, or worse. We must remember in such
cases that there may be a very good reason why the registrant has
opted for whois privacy. It may therefore be essential for the
registrant to know who has inquired to have messages relayed or to
have the private data revealed to be able to help the p/p service
provider better understand the situation. While I understand there
may be cases where a complainant may also have an interest in
keeping his identity hidden, he can avail himself of a multitude of
methods to ensure this prior to launching the complaint. I do not
see this question as actually necessary. <br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CADW+eutjq0_eox-_6ZD85JZBBdU5eAcXwsRvj4WVNrJ8Ag_wKA@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_default">
<ul>
<li><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif"
color="#073763">Similarly, I proposed an additional
question regarding whether, if disclosure to the
registrant is not required, it should be permitted even
if law enforcement explains that it will jeopardize an
investigation. The rationale for this is simply that in
many cases -- in the offline world, as the online world
-- disclosing this information puts a legitimate
investigation at risk. <br>
</font></li>
</ul>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<font color="#073763"><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif">Agreed,
but not all law enforcement is created equal. Basically, I would
hold that the p/p operator is unable to determine if an
investigation is legitimate or not. Therefore, the only law
enforcement that should receive </font></font>special
priviledges should be the law enforcement of the country where the
p/p service is based or operates from. <br>
<br>
No such privileges should be extended to private organizations, no
matter how well intentioned unless they are specially authorized be
the laws of the country of the p/p operator. <br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CADW+eutjq0_eox-_6ZD85JZBBdU5eAcXwsRvj4WVNrJ8Ag_wKA@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_default">
<ul>
<li><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif"
color="#073763">The proposed questions pertaining to
jurisdiction are based on the problem I identified (and
Gema did, as well) in our earlier emails. I do feel that
the way I've written the questions can be clarified and
improved, so I welcome anyone who would like to give
that a shot. </font></li>
<li><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif"
color="#073763">Similarly, we propose a question that
relates to the other business interests controlled by or
affiliated with the p/p service. To explain this, we
have sometimes seen that the criminal organization "is"
the privacy/proxy service. (Currently, of course, there
is no accreditation scheme, but the fact remains that is
what we see, and I am happy to provide examples if need
be.) To be very specific, we know of circumstances where
a rogue Internet pharmacy network operates its own
"proxy" service, or alternatively, the proxy service --
that is, the individuals who operate it -- also operates
as affiliate marketers for rogue networks, using their
own privacy/proxy service primarily for their own
illegal purposes.</font></li>
</ul>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<font color="#073763"><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif">Under
an accreditation scheme, if actual collusion can be proven, that
should probably be a reason to pull the accreditation of the
service.</font></font><br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CADW+eutjq0_eox-_6ZD85JZBBdU5eAcXwsRvj4WVNrJ8Ag_wKA@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_default">
<ul>
</ul>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;color:rgb(7,55,99)">
Finally, although I unfortunately had to miss the call this
morning, I believe that some of the comments may have argued
that registrars (or, ICANN) should not have to address
criminal jurisdictional issues (that is, multi-jurisdictional
complexities). I'd note that banks, credit card networks and
search engine ad programs regularly have to address precisely
the same multi-jurisdictional questions relating to criminal
activity on their platform and do not simply leave it to law
enforcement. I would argue that there is no reason to consider
registrars a special case that are for some reason exempt from
having to address the same issues that companies in the
financial and advertising sectors have had to address, and
have by and large done so quite competently. I am confident
that the registrar community can competently do the same.</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
John, please note that registrars are not (and are nothing like)
banks or credit card networks, which are highly regulated by
national laws. And even banks take action only based upon legal
requirements, law enforcement requests or court orders. To demand
any more for less regulated private companies is frankly ridiculous.
<br>
<br>
Your new questions as to related to asking them about applicability
of foreign law enforcement requests sound like an unrealistic wish
list at best. Providers bowing to every whim of foreign law
enforcement or organizations without actual legal authority would
expose themsemselves to severe legal liability. <br>
<br>
Best,<br>
<br>
Volker<br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CADW+eutjq0_eox-_6ZD85JZBBdU5eAcXwsRvj4WVNrJ8Ag_wKA@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;color:rgb(7,55,99)"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;color:rgb(7,55,99)">Thank
you for the opportunity to provide this input, and I welcome
any suggestions as to how our suggestions can be improved or
refined. </div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all">
<div>
<div dir="ltr"><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif"
color="#073763">John Horton<br>
President, LegitScript</font>
<div> <img moz-do-not-send="true"
src="https://static.legitscript.com/assets/logo-smaller-cdb8a6f307ce2c6172e72257dc6dfc34.png"
width="96" height="21"><br>
<div>
<div>
<p style="margin:0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px;font:12.0px
Helvetica"><br>
</p>
<p
style="margin:0px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-size:12px;line-height:normal;font-family:Helvetica"><b><font
color="#444444">Follow</font><font
color="#0b5394"> </font><font color="#000000">Legit</font><font
color="#0b5394">Script</font></b>: <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.linkedin.com/company/legitscript-com"
style="font-weight:normal" target="_blank"><font
color="#cc0000">LinkedIn</font></a> | <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://www.facebook.com/LegitScript"
style="font-weight:normal" target="_blank"><font
color="#6aa84f">Facebook</font></a> | <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://twitter.com/legitscript"
style="font-weight:normal" target="_blank"><font
color="#674ea7">Twitter</font></a> | <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://www.youtube.com/user/LegitScript"
style="font-weight:normal" target="_blank"><font
color="#bf9000">YouTube</font></a> | <font
color="#ff9900"><u><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://blog.legitscript.com"
target="_blank">Blog</a></u></font> |<font
color="#ff9900"> <font
style="font-weight:normal"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://plus.google.com/112436813474708014933/posts"
target="_blank">Google+</a></font></font></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Jan 7, 2014 at 7:44 AM,
Marika Konings <span dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:marika.konings@icann.org" target="_blank">marika.konings@icann.org</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div
style="font-size:14px;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;word-wrap:break-word">
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<span>
<div style="border-right:medium
none;padding-right:0in;padding-left:0in;padding-top:3pt;text-align:left;font-size:11pt;border-bottom:medium
none;font-family:Calibri;border-top:#b5c4df 1pt
solid;padding-bottom:0in;border-left:medium none">
<span style="font-weight:bold">From: </span> Kathy
Kleiman <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:kathy@kathykleiman.com"
target="_blank">kathy@kathykleiman.com</a>><br>
<span style="font-weight:bold">Date: </span>
Tuesday 7 January 2014 16:38<br>
<span style="font-weight:bold">To: </span> Marika
Konings <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:marika.konings@icann.org"
target="_blank">marika.konings@icann.org</a>><br>
<span style="font-weight:bold">Subject: </span>
Fwd: Draft Grouping of Charter Questions - some
edits<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
Hi Marika, could you post this to our working
group?
<div>
<div><br>
<div><br>
<br>
-------- Original Message --------
<table border="0" cellpadding="0"
cellspacing="0">
<tbody>
<tr>
<th valign="BASELINE" align="RIGHT"
nowrap="nowrap">Subject: </th>
<td>Draft Grouping of Charter
Questions - some edits</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<th valign="BASELINE" align="RIGHT"
nowrap="nowrap">
Date: </th>
<td>Tue, 07 Jan 2014 10:35:02 -0500</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<th valign="BASELINE" align="RIGHT"
nowrap="nowrap">From: </th>
<td>Kathy Kleiman <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:kathy@kathykleiman.com"
target="_blank">
<kathy@kathykleiman.com></a></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<th valign="BASELINE" align="RIGHT"
nowrap="nowrap">To: </th>
<td><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org"
target="_blank">gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org</a></td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<br>
<br>
<div>Hi All,<br>
Hopefully you have seen the proposed edits
I just to the SG-C Input Template (I
haven't seen them posted).
<br>
<br>
Attached here are some inputs to the Draft
Grouping of Charter Questions - with an
organizational-type perspective being
added. The world is really not just
commercial/individual, but truly one of
commercial, noncommercial and individual
(as ICANN has organized its non-contracted
parties). <br>
<br>
For a religious group, political group,
hobby group, dissident group may be
organized as a limited liability company
to protect the members in case someone
falls in the building, but that does not
nullify the fact that the group is engaged
primarily and fully in noncommercial
speech (as the wide array of members of
NCSG show).<br>
<br>
Again edits highlighted and hopefully
visible. I would like to see much more
discussion on this issue in our next
meeting and over the list.<br>
Best,<br>
Kathy<br>
<br>
:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif">I
will miss the first 30 minutes due
to another obligation, but will join
as soon as I can.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif"> </span></p>
<div>
<div
style="border:none;border-top:solid
#b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in
0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:.5in">
<b><span
style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org"
target="_blank">
gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org</a> [<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org"
target="_blank">mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Marika
Konings<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, January 06,
2014 4:30 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org"
target="_blank">
gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b>
[Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Proposed
Agenda - PPSAI PDP WG Meeting</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:.5in"> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:.5in">
<span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Dear
All,</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:.5in"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:.5in"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Please
find below the proposed agenda for
the next PPSAI PDP WG meeting
(Tuesday 7 January at 15.00 UTC).</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:.5in"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:.5in"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Best
regards,</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:.5in"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:.5in"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Marika</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:.5in"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:.5in"><b><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Proposed
Agenda – PPSAI PDP WG Meeting –
7 January 2013</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:1.0in"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><span>1.<span
style="font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;font-size:7pt;line-height:normal;font-family:'Times
New Roman'">
</span></span></span><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Roll
Call / SOI</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:1.0in"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><span>2.<span
style="font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;font-size:7pt;line-height:normal;font-family:'Times
New Roman'">
</span></span></span><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Review
& finalise SG/C Template (see
revised version attached)</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:1.0in">
<span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><span>3.<span
style="font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;font-size:7pt;line-height:normal;font-family:'Times
New Roman'">
</span></span></span><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Review
& finalise SO/AC Outreach
Letter (see revised version
attached)</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:1.0in">
<span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><span>4.<span
style="font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;font-size:7pt;line-height:normal;font-family:'Times
New Roman'">
</span></span></span><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Input
to EWG Survey (see attached)</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:1.0in"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><span>5.<span
style="font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;font-size:7pt;line-height:normal;font-family:'Times
New Roman'">
</span></span></span><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Update
on WG members survey (to
participate, please go to <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/86N33WX"
target="_blank">https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/86N33WX</a>) </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:1.0in"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><span>6.<span
style="font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;font-size:7pt;line-height:normal;font-family:'Times
New Roman'">
</span></span></span><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Review
proposed charter question
groupings (see latest version
attached)</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:1.0in">
<span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><span>7.<span
style="font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;font-size:7pt;line-height:normal;font-family:'Times
New Roman'">
</span></span></span><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Next
steps & confirm next meeting</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset></fieldset>
<br>
<pre>_______________________________________________
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</blockquote>
<br>
<br>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</span></div>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg mailing list<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org"
target="_blank">Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org</a><br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg"
target="_blank">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg</a><br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
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<br>
<pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
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</blockquote>
<br>
<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
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