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<div>Just a reminder that there will likely be p/p service providers that are not also Registrars, unless we decide that you must be for some reason.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Tim</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
On Jan 8, 2014, at 10:10 AM, "Chris Pelling" <<a href="mailto:chris@netearthone.com">chris@netearthone.com</a>> wrote:<br>
<br>
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<blockquote type="cite">
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<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: #000000">
Hi Gema,<br>
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-family: Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;">
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<br>
I read both John's and Volker's replies (plus yours just now :) ). We for example will accept LEA/Court requests from North America or the UK, specifically it has to be in English and from a verifiable Law enforcement agency/Court from one of those countries.
I have many a time, received requests from outside those 2 countries, and actually given the requestee the UK numbers for LEA that we have and then hear nothing more, whether this be that UK LEA feel there is no grounds, or, the foreign LEA cannot be bothered
- I do not know.<br>
<br>
We as registrars, have to also "be protected"/"protect ourselves" (you may or may not understand or care about that, but we need to). Volker made a very good point, as registrars and/or p/p services cannot be judge nor jury, this is what LEA/Courts are for,
not ICANN or any other service out there.<br>
<br>
I for 1 and this may be the same for other registrars (they should step up and say their minds), would only accept LEA or Court orders - NOT any other "for profit/non profit organization" - why, because it protects us in a court of law if the registrant decides
it was unlawful giving out his/her personal information and that we have broken the data protection act's of our countries. Plus the saying still goes, Innocent until proven guilty.
<br>
<br>
I know what I have said is not overly helpful, but, we all have to appreciate the different goals that need to be accomplished for better or worse.<br>
<br>
<div><span></span>Kind Regards,<br>
<br>
Chris<br>
<br>
NetEarth One, inc<span></span><br>
</div>
<br>
<hr id="zwchr">
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-family: Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;">
<b>From: </b>"Campillos Gonzalez, Gema Maria" <<a href="mailto:GCAMPILLOS@minetur.es">GCAMPILLOS@minetur.es</a>><br>
<b>To: </b>"Volker Greimann" <<a href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net">vgreimann@key-systems.net</a>>,
<a href="mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org">gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org</a><br>
<b>Sent: </b>Wednesday, 8 January, 2014 1:36:27 PM<br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] FW: Draft Grouping of Charter Questions - some edits<br>
<br>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Dear Volker,
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">Your comments have prompted me to step in your conversation with John Horton.
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">By sternly refusing to respond to foreign law enforcement authorities´ requests, p/p services blatantly disregard the fact that their
services are used by foreign individuals, organizations and companies, not the least because they promote their services abroad. In its self-regulation industry represented at ICANN must pay heed to this conspicuous fact and react to it. Simply denying any
legitimacy to foreign authorities is not acceptable. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">As for other Internet services, I invite you to have a look at the Transparency Report Google releases every six months. It´s an example
of an Internet service provider who voluntarily attends to requests issued worldwide. Many hosting providers also respond our requests when we ask them to provide contact data of their customers. Once, I advised the group to visit
<a href="http://www.internetjurisdiction.net/" target="_blank">www.internetjurisdiction.net/</a>. They are trying to work out avenues to solve jurisdiction problems through soft law. Efforts like this should be supported and tested, for instance, as regards
p/p services. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">Best regards,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Gema Campillos Glez</span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<div>
<div style="border-width: 1pt medium medium; border-style: solid none none; border-color: rgb(181, 196, 223) -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color; padding: 3pt 0cm 0cm;">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Tahoma","sans-serif"; color: windowtext;">De:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Tahoma","sans-serif"; color: windowtext;">
<a href="mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org">gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org</a> [<a href="mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org">mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org</a>]
<b>En nombre de </b>Volker Greimann<br>
<b>Enviado el:</b> miércoles, 08 de enero de 2014 13:23<br>
<b>Para:</b> <a href="mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org">gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org</a><br>
<b>Asunto:</b> Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] FW: Draft Grouping of Charter Questions - some edits</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt;">Hi all,<br>
<br>
to respond to John's comments:</p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<ul type="disc">
<li class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-family: "Arial","sans-serif"; color: rgb(7, 55, 99);">When an allegation of illegal activity is submitted to the p/p service provider, it is important to understand that it may be coming from a victim of the
crime. </span></li></ul>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Arial","sans-serif"; color: rgb(7, 55, 99);">When an allegation of illegal activity is submitted, it is important to understand that it may be coming from someone who merely claims to vbe a victim of a crime,
but is in fact not. </span>The purposes for which someone may want to see the underlying registrant data are multifold and many of them are with the intent to later harass the privacy service user, or worse. We must remember in such cases that there may be
a very good reason why the registrant has opted for whois privacy. It may therefore be essential for the registrant to know who has inquired to have messages relayed or to have the private data revealed to be able to help the p/p service provider better understand
the situation. While I understand there may be cases where a complainant may also have an interest in keeping his identity hidden, he can avail himself of a multitude of methods to ensure this prior to launching the complaint. I do not see this question as
actually necessary. </p>
<div>
<div>
<ul type="disc">
<li class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-family: "Arial","sans-serif"; color: rgb(7, 55, 99);">Similarly, I proposed an additional question regarding whether, if disclosure to the registrant is not required, it should be permitted even if law enforcement
explains that it will jeopardize an investigation. The rationale for this is simply that in many cases -- in the offline world, as the online world -- disclosing this information puts a legitimate investigation at risk.
</span></li></ul>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Arial","sans-serif"; color: rgb(7, 55, 99);">Agreed, but not all law enforcement is created equal. Basically, I would hold that the p/p operator is unable to determine if an investigation is legitimate or not.
Therefore, the only law enforcement that should receive </span>special priviledges should be the law enforcement of the country where the p/p service is based or operates from.
<br>
<br>
No such privileges should be extended to private organizations, no matter how well intentioned unless they are specially authorized be the laws of the country of the p/p operator.
</p>
<div>
<div>
<ul type="disc">
<li class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-family: "Arial","sans-serif"; color: rgb(7, 55, 99);">The proposed questions pertaining to jurisdiction are based on the problem I identified (and Gema did, as well) in our earlier emails. I do feel that the
way I've written the questions can be clarified and improved, so I welcome anyone who would like to give that a shot. </span></li><li class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-family: "Arial","sans-serif"; color: rgb(7, 55, 99);">Similarly, we propose a question that relates to the other business interests controlled by or affiliated with the p/p service. To explain this, we have sometimes
seen that the criminal organization "is" the privacy/proxy service. (Currently, of course, there is no accreditation scheme, but the fact remains that is what we see, and I am happy to provide examples if need be.) To be very specific, we know of circumstances
where a rogue Internet pharmacy network operates its own "proxy" service, or alternatively, the proxy service -- that is, the individuals who operate it -- also operates as affiliate marketers for rogue networks, using their own privacy/proxy service primarily
for their own illegal purposes.</span></li></ul>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Arial","sans-serif"; color: rgb(7, 55, 99);">Under an accreditation scheme, if actual collusion can be proven, that should probably be a reason to pull the accreditation of the service.</span></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Arial","sans-serif"; color: rgb(7, 55, 99);">Finally, although I unfortunately had to miss the call this morning, I believe that some of the comments may have argued that registrars (or, ICANN) should not have
to address criminal jurisdictional issues (that is, multi-jurisdictional complexities). I'd note that banks, credit card networks and search engine ad programs regularly have to address precisely the same multi-jurisdictional questions relating to criminal
activity on their platform and do not simply leave it to law enforcement. I would argue that there is no reason to consider registrars a special case that are for some reason exempt from having to address the same issues that companies in the financial and
advertising sectors have had to address, and have by and large done so quite competently. I am confident that the registrar community can competently do the same.</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><br>
John, please note that registrars are not (and are nothing like) banks or credit card networks, which are highly regulated by national laws. And even banks take action only based upon legal requirements, law enforcement requests or court orders. To demand any
more for less regulated private companies is frankly ridiculous. <br>
<br>
Your new questions as to related to asking them about applicability of foreign law enforcement requests sound like an unrealistic wish list at best. Providers bowing to every whim of foreign law enforcement or organizations without actual legal authority would
expose themsemselves to severe legal liability. <br>
<br>
Best,<br>
<br>
Volker</p>
<div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Arial","sans-serif"; color: rgb(7, 55, 99);"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Arial","sans-serif"; color: rgb(7, 55, 99);">Thank you for the opportunity to provide this input, and I welcome any suggestions as to how our suggestions can be improved or refined. </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Arial","sans-serif"; color: rgb(7, 55, 99);">John Horton<br>
President, LegitScript</span> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <img src="https://static.legitscript.com/assets/logo-smaller-cdb8a6f307ce2c6172e72257dc6dfc34.png" id="_x0000_i1025" border="0" height="21" width="96"></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Tue, Jan 7, 2014 at 7:44 AM, Marika Konings <<a href="mailto:marika.konings@icann.org" target="_blank">marika.konings@icann.org</a>> wrote:</p>
<div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";"> </span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";"> </span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";">From:
</span></b><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";">Kathy Kleiman <<a href="mailto:kathy@kathykleiman.com" target="_blank">kathy@kathykleiman.com</a>><br>
<b>Date: </b>Tuesday 7 January 2014 16:38<br>
<b>To: </b>Marika Konings <<a href="mailto:marika.konings@icann.org" target="_blank">marika.konings@icann.org</a>><br>
<b>Subject: </b>Fwd: Draft Grouping of Charter Questions - some edits</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";"> </span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";">Hi Marika, could you post this to our working group?
</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";"> </span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";"><br>
<br>
-------- Original Message -------- </span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: right;" align="right"><b>Subject: </b></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Draft Grouping of Charter Questions - some edits</p>
</td>
</tr>
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<td style="padding: 0cm;" nowrap="nowrap" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: right;" align="right"><b>Date: </b></p>
</td>
<td style="padding: 0cm;">
<p class="MsoNormal">Tue, 07 Jan 2014 10:35:02 -0500</p>
</td>
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<td style="padding: 0cm;" nowrap="nowrap" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: right;" align="right"><b>From: </b></p>
</td>
<td style="padding: 0cm;">
<p class="MsoNormal">Kathy Kleiman <a href="mailto:kathy@kathykleiman.com" target="_blank">
<kathy@kathykleiman.com></a></p>
</td>
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<td style="padding: 0cm;" nowrap="nowrap" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: right;" align="right"><b>To: </b></p>
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<td style="padding: 0cm;">
<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org" target="_blank">gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org</a></p>
</td>
</tr>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";"> </span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";">Hi All,<br>
Hopefully you have seen the proposed edits I just to the SG-C Input Template (I haven't seen them posted).
<br>
<br>
Attached here are some inputs to the Draft Grouping of Charter Questions - with an organizational-type perspective being added. The world is really not just commercial/individual, but truly one of commercial, noncommercial and individual (as ICANN has organized
its non-contracted parties). <br>
<br>
For a religious group, political group, hobby group, dissident group may be organized as a limited liability company to protect the members in case someone falls in the building, but that does not nullify the fact that the group is engaged primarily and fully
in noncommercial speech (as the wide array of members of NCSG show).<br>
<br>
Again edits highlighted and hopefully visible. I would like to see much more discussion on this issue in our next meeting and over the list.<br>
Best,<br>
Kathy<br>
<br>
:</span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";">I will miss the first 30 minutes due to another obligation, but will join as soon as I can.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";"> </span></p>
<div>
<div style="border-width: 1pt medium medium; border-style: solid none none; border-color: rgb(181, 196, 223) -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color; padding: 3pt 0cm 0cm;">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 36pt;"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Tahoma","sans-serif";">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Tahoma","sans-serif";"><a href="mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org" target="_blank">
gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org</a> [<a href="mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org" target="_blank">mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Marika Konings<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, January 06, 2014 4:30 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org" target="_blank">gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Proposed Agenda - PPSAI PDP WG Meeting</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 36pt;"> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 36pt;"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";">Dear All,</span></p>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 36pt;"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 36pt;"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";">Please find below the proposed agenda for the next PPSAI PDP WG meeting (Tuesday 7 January at 15.00 UTC).</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 36pt;"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 36pt;"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";">Best regards,</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 36pt;"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 36pt;"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";">Marika</span></p>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 36pt;"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";"> </span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 36pt;"><b><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";">Proposed Agenda – PPSAI PDP WG Meeting – 7 January 2013</span></b></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 72pt;"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";">1.</span><span style="font-size: 7pt;">
</span><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";">Roll Call / SOI</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 72pt;"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";">2.</span><span style="font-size: 7pt;">
</span><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";">Review & finalise SG/C Template (see revised version attached)</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 72pt;"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";">3.</span><span style="font-size: 7pt;">
</span><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";">Review & finalise SO/AC Outreach Letter (see revised version attached)</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 72pt;"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";">4.</span><span style="font-size: 7pt;">
</span><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";">Input to EWG Survey (see attached)</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 72pt;"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";">5.</span><span style="font-size: 7pt;">
</span><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";">Update on WG members survey (to participate, please go to <a href="https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/86N33WX" target="_blank">https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/86N33WX</a>) </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 72pt;"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";">6.</span><span style="font-size: 7pt;">
</span><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";">Review proposed charter question groupings (see latest version attached)</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 72pt;"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";">7.</span><span style="font-size: 7pt;">
</span><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";">Next steps & confirm next meeting</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";"><br>
<br>
</span></p>
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<pre>Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.</pre>
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<pre>Mit freundlichen Grüßen,</pre>
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<pre>Volker A. Greimann</pre>
<pre>- Rechtsabteilung -</pre>
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<pre>Key-Systems GmbH</pre>
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<pre>Key-Systems GmbH</pre>
<pre>Im Oberen Werk 1</pre>
<pre>66386 St. Ingbert</pre>
<pre>Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901</pre>
<pre>Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851</pre>
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