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<div>I agree with Volker. That said, I would be very interested in understanding how banks, credit card companies, and search engines actually deal with multi-jurisdictional issues. We may be able to glean some concepts that could be applied to p/p accreditation.</div>
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<div>Tim</div>
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On Jan 8, 2014, at 7:21 AM, "Volker Greimann" <<a href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net">vgreimann@key-systems.net</a>> wrote:<br>
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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Hi all,<br>
<br>
to respond to John's comments:<br>
<br>
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<blockquote cite="mid:CADW+eutjq0_eox-_6ZD85JZBBdU5eAcXwsRvj4WVNrJ8Ag_wKA@mail.gmail.com" type="cite">
<div dir="ltr"><br>
<div class="gmail_default">
<ul>
<li><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif" color="#073763">When an allegation of illegal activity is submitted to the p/p service provider, it is important to understand that it may be coming from a victim of the crime.
</font></li></ul>
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<font color="#073763"><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif">When an allegation of illegal activity is submitted, it is important to understand that it may be coming from someone who merely claims to vbe a victim of a crime, but is in fact not.
</font></font>The purposes for which someone may want to see the underlying registrant data are multifold and many of them are with the intent to later harass the privacy service user, or worse. We must remember in such cases that there may be a very good reason
why the registrant has opted for whois privacy. It may therefore be essential for the registrant to know who has inquired to have messages relayed or to have the private data revealed to be able to help the p/p service provider better understand the situation.
While I understand there may be cases where a complainant may also have an interest in keeping his identity hidden, he can avail himself of a multitude of methods to ensure this prior to launching the complaint. I do not see this question as actually necessary.
<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:CADW+eutjq0_eox-_6ZD85JZBBdU5eAcXwsRvj4WVNrJ8Ag_wKA@mail.gmail.com" type="cite">
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<div class="gmail_default">
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<li><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif" color="#073763">Similarly, I proposed an additional question regarding whether, if disclosure to the registrant is not required, it should be permitted even if law enforcement explains that it will jeopardize an
investigation. The rationale for this is simply that in many cases -- in the offline world, as the online world -- disclosing this information puts a legitimate investigation at risk.
<br>
</font></li></ul>
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<font color="#073763"><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif">Agreed, but not all law enforcement is created equal. Basically, I would hold that the p/p operator is unable to determine if an investigation is legitimate or not. Therefore, the only law enforcement
that should receive </font></font>special priviledges should be the law enforcement of the country where the p/p service is based or operates from.
<br>
<br>
No such privileges should be extended to private organizations, no matter how well intentioned unless they are specially authorized be the laws of the country of the p/p operator.
<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:CADW+eutjq0_eox-_6ZD85JZBBdU5eAcXwsRvj4WVNrJ8Ag_wKA@mail.gmail.com" type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_default">
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<li><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif" color="#073763">The proposed questions pertaining to jurisdiction are based on the problem I identified (and Gema did, as well) in our earlier emails. I do feel that the way I've written the questions can be clarified
and improved, so I welcome anyone who would like to give that a shot. </font> </li><li><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif" color="#073763">Similarly, we propose a question that relates to the other business interests controlled by or affiliated with the p/p service. To explain this, we have sometimes seen that the criminal organization
"is" the privacy/proxy service. (Currently, of course, there is no accreditation scheme, but the fact remains that is what we see, and I am happy to provide examples if need be.) To be very specific, we know of circumstances where a rogue Internet pharmacy
network operates its own "proxy" service, or alternatively, the proxy service -- that is, the individuals who operate it -- also operates as affiliate marketers for rogue networks, using their own privacy/proxy service primarily for their own illegal purposes.</font>
</li></ul>
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<font color="#073763"><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif">Under an accreditation scheme, if actual collusion can be proven, that should probably be a reason to pull the accreditation of the service.</font></font><br>
<blockquote cite="mid:CADW+eutjq0_eox-_6ZD85JZBBdU5eAcXwsRvj4WVNrJ8Ag_wKA@mail.gmail.com" type="cite">
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<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;color:rgb(7,55,99)">
Finally, although I unfortunately had to miss the call this morning, I believe that some of the comments may have argued that registrars (or, ICANN) should not have to address criminal jurisdictional issues (that is, multi-jurisdictional complexities). I'd
note that banks, credit card networks and search engine ad programs regularly have to address precisely the same multi-jurisdictional questions relating to criminal activity on their platform and do not simply leave it to law enforcement. I would argue that
there is no reason to consider registrars a special case that are for some reason exempt from having to address the same issues that companies in the financial and advertising sectors have had to address, and have by and large done so quite competently. I
am confident that the registrar community can competently do the same.</div>
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John, please note that registrars are not (and are nothing like) banks or credit card networks, which are highly regulated by national laws. And even banks take action only based upon legal requirements, law enforcement requests or court orders. To demand any
more for less regulated private companies is frankly ridiculous. <br>
<br>
Your new questions as to related to asking them about applicability of foreign law enforcement requests sound like an unrealistic wish list at best. Providers bowing to every whim of foreign law enforcement or organizations without actual legal authority would
expose themsemselves to severe legal liability. <br>
<br>
Best,<br>
<br>
Volker<br>
<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:CADW+eutjq0_eox-_6ZD85JZBBdU5eAcXwsRvj4WVNrJ8Ag_wKA@mail.gmail.com" type="cite">
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Thank you for the opportunity to provide this input, and I welcome any suggestions as to how our suggestions can be improved or refined. </div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all">
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<div dir="ltr"><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif" color="#073763">John Horton<br>
President, LegitScript</font>
<div> <img moz-do-not-send="true" src="https://static.legitscript.com/assets/logo-smaller-cdb8a6f307ce2c6172e72257dc6dfc34.png" width="96" height="21"><br>
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<p style="margin:0px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-size:12px;line-height:normal;font-family:Helvetica">
<b><font color="#444444">Follow</font><font color="#0b5394"> </font><font color="#000000">Legit</font><font color="#0b5394">Script</font></b>:
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.linkedin.com/company/legitscript-com" style="font-weight:normal" target="_blank">
<font color="#cc0000">LinkedIn</font></a> | <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://www.facebook.com/LegitScript" style="font-weight:normal" target="_blank"><font color="#6aa84f">Facebook</font></a> | <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://twitter.com/legitscript" style="font-weight:normal" target="_blank"><font color="#674ea7">Twitter</font></a>
| <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://www.youtube.com/user/LegitScript" style="font-weight:normal" target="_blank"><font color="#bf9000">YouTube</font></a> | <font color="#ff9900"><u><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://blog.legitscript.com" target="_blank">Blog</a></u></font>
|<font color="#ff9900"> <font style="font-weight:normal"><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://plus.google.com/112436813474708014933/posts" target="_blank">Google+</a></font></font></p>
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<div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Jan 7, 2014 at 7:44 AM, Marika Konings <span dir="ltr">
<<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:marika.konings@icann.org" target="_blank">marika.konings@icann.org</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div style="font-size:14px;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;word-wrap:break-word">
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<div style="border-right:medium
none;padding-right:0in;padding-left:0in;padding-top:3pt;text-align:left;font-size:11pt;border-bottom:medium
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solid;padding-bottom:0in;border-left:medium none">
<span style="font-weight:bold">From: </span>Kathy Kleiman <<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:kathy@kathykleiman.com" target="_blank">kathy@kathykleiman.com</a>><br>
<span style="font-weight:bold">Date: </span>Tuesday 7 January 2014 16:38<br>
<span style="font-weight:bold">To: </span>Marika Konings <<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:marika.konings@icann.org" target="_blank">marika.konings@icann.org</a>><br>
<span style="font-weight:bold">Subject: </span>Fwd: Draft Grouping of Charter Questions - some edits<br>
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<div>
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">Hi Marika, could you post this to our working group?
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-------- Original Message --------
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<td>Draft Grouping of Charter Questions - some edits</td>
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<th valign="BASELINE" align="RIGHT" nowrap="nowrap">Date: </th>
<td>Tue, 07 Jan 2014 10:35:02 -0500</td>
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<th valign="BASELINE" align="RIGHT" nowrap="nowrap">From: </th>
<td>Kathy Kleiman <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:kathy@kathykleiman.com" target="_blank">
<kathy@kathykleiman.com></a></td>
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<th valign="BASELINE" align="RIGHT" nowrap="nowrap">To: </th>
<td><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org" target="_blank">gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org</a></td>
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<div>Hi All,<br>
Hopefully you have seen the proposed edits I just to the SG-C Input Template (I haven't seen them posted).
<br>
<br>
Attached here are some inputs to the Draft Grouping of Charter Questions - with an organizational-type perspective being added. The world is really not just commercial/individual, but truly one of commercial, noncommercial and individual (as ICANN has organized
its non-contracted parties). <br>
<br>
For a religious group, political group, hobby group, dissident group may be organized as a limited liability company to protect the members in case someone falls in the building, but that does not nullify the fact that the group is engaged primarily and fully
in noncommercial speech (as the wide array of members of NCSG show).<br>
<br>
Again edits highlighted and hopefully visible. I would like to see much more discussion on this issue in our next meeting and over the list.<br>
Best,<br>
Kathy<br>
<br>
:<br>
</div>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif">I will miss the first 30 minutes due to another obligation, but will join as soon as I can.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif"> </span></p>
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<div style="border:none;border-top:solid
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif"><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org" target="_blank">
gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org</a> [<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org" target="_blank">mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Marika Konings<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, January 06, 2014 4:30 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org" target="_blank">
gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Proposed Agenda - PPSAI PDP WG Meeting</span></p>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"> </p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Dear All,</span></p>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Please find below the proposed agenda for the next PPSAI PDP WG meeting (Tuesday 7 January at 15.00 UTC).</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Best regards,</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Marika</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><b><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Proposed Agenda – PPSAI PDP WG Meeting – 7 January 2013</span></b><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><span>1.<span style="font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;font-size:7pt;line-height:normal;font-family:'Times
New Roman'">
</span></span></span><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Roll Call / SOI</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><span>2.<span style="font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;font-size:7pt;line-height:normal;font-family:'Times
New Roman'">
</span></span></span><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Review & finalise SG/C Template (see revised version attached)</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><span>3.<span style="font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;font-size:7pt;line-height:normal;font-family:'Times
New Roman'">
</span></span></span><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Review & finalise SO/AC Outreach Letter (see revised version attached)</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><span>4.<span style="font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;font-size:7pt;line-height:normal;font-family:'Times
New Roman'">
</span></span></span><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Input to EWG Survey (see attached)</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><span>5.<span style="font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;font-size:7pt;line-height:normal;font-family:'Times
New Roman'">
</span></span></span><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Update on WG members survey (to participate, please go to <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/86N33WX" target="_blank">https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/86N33WX</a>) </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><span>6.<span style="font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;font-size:7pt;line-height:normal;font-family:'Times
New Roman'">
</span></span></span><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Review proposed charter question groupings (see latest version attached)</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><span>7.<span style="font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;font-size:7pt;line-height:normal;font-family:'Times
New Roman'">
</span></span></span><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Next steps & confirm next meeting</span></p>
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</div>
<br>
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<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Volker A. Greimann
- Rechtsabteilung -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
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<span><a href="mailto:Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org">Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org</a></span><br>
<span><a href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg</a></span></div>
</blockquote>
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