<html>
<head>
<meta content="text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1"
http-equiv="Content-Type">
</head>
<body text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Hi,<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:alpine.LRH.2.03.1401201317130.24895@sanctuary.coldrain.net"
type="cite">
I think that part about the origin of privacy services in not
question. Registrars sell this service, Proxy has a broader
definition, but when limited to offers by Registrars, it is
straightforward.
<br>
</blockquote>
it is not just registrars offering such services by far. As
registrar I see a whole bunch of different services that are
currently being used with our registrations:<br>
<br>
- our own privacy service<br>
- services affiliated with or provided by our resellers to their
customers directly<br>
- independent services not affiliated with any registrar or reseller<br>
- privacy services affiliated with a different registrar (rare,
usually after a transfer)<br>
- services set up by the end customer itself<br>
<br>
Each of those categories can be further split up into a greater
number of subcategories.<br>
<br>
Volker<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:alpine.LRH.2.03.1401201317130.24895@sanctuary.coldrain.net"
type="cite">
<br>
<br>
On Mon, 20 Jan 2014, Don Blumenthal wrote:
<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">I¹m jumping in briefly to rename this
thread.
<br>
<br>
And request that assertions of fact (spam percentages and origin
of proxy
<br>
and privacy services to name a couple) be accompanied by
documentation so
<br>
we can get a head start on assembling materials. It will have to
happen
<br>
now or later.
<br>
<br>
Don
<br>
<br>
On 1/20/14, 12:47 PM, "Volker Greimann"
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net"><vgreimann@key-systems.net></a> wrote:
<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">As a European, I believe in data
protection and data privacy.
<br>
Information that needs to be public should be. Information
that does not
<br>
should not. "The public" indeed does not need that data. If
you think
<br>
that is extreme...
<br>
<br>
BTW: I also have an issue with tapping phones, logging
connection data,
<br>
logging private communication, etc.
<br>
<br>
Volker
<br>
<br>
Am 20.01.2014 18:36, schrieb Bob Bruen:
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">Hi Volker,
<br>
<br>
Law Enforcement has been compaining for years about access
to whois
<br>
and still do. This is just an obstacle thrown up to slow
down finding
<br>
who the bad actors are. Getting court orders and warrants
just to see
<br>
who owns a domain (commercial) is way out there. The
information was
<br>
intended to be public in the first place.
<br>
<br>
It appears that you have decided that the general public
does not
<br>
deserve access to public whois data. Again, I do not know
what to say
<br>
to something so extreme.
<br>
<br>
--bob
<br>
<br>
<br>
On Mon, 20 Jan 2014, Volker Greimann wrote:
<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">No identities of criminals are
effectively protected by privacy
<br>
services, provided they are required to reveal such
<br>
identities to law enforcement of appropriate jurisdiction.
<br>
<br>
Private individuals, vigilantes or other interested
parties on the
<br>
other hand have no real legitimate interest to receive
<br>
data on alleged criminals data unless they want to take
matters best
<br>
left to LEAs into their own hands.
<br>
<br>
There is a reason why even criminals have the right to
privacy and
<br>
not to have their full names and likenesses published.
<br>
Heck, in Japan, TV stations even mosaic handcuffs of
suspects.
<br>
<br>
Volker
<br>
<br>
<br>
Hi Tim,
<br>
<br>
The harm is protecting the identities of criminnals.
And I
<br>
consider undermining whois a harm, as well
<br>
<br>
--bob
<br>
<br>
<br>
On Mon, 20 Jan 2014, Tim Ruiz wrote:
<br>
<br>
What are the problems commercial entities that
use p/p
<br>
have caused?
<br>
<br>
On Jan 20, 2014, at 8:11 AM, "Bob Bruen"
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:bruen@coldrain.net"><bruen@coldrain.net></a> wrote:
<br>
<br>
<br>
Hi Volker,
<br>
<br>
I was merely responding to Stephanie's
comments
<br>
about the difficulties, not advocating a
<br>
position.
<br>
<br>
However, as you are aware, I do advocate
barring
<br>
commercial entities from using p/p,
<br>
because the use has already caused harm
and we
<br>
should fix that. The providers created
<br>
the problem in the first place, so
allowing them to
<br>
continue to control it simply
<br>
continues the problem.
<br>
<br>
The discussion of all this is the point
of this
<br>
group (and other groups).
<br>
<br>
--bob
<br>
<br>
On Mon, 20 Jan 2014, Volker
Greimann wrote:
<br>
<br>
I agree that it would be possible
to bar
<br>
commercial entities from using p/p
<br>
services, however I am not sure it
is the
<br>
sensible thing to do. Certainly,
there is
<br>
abuse, but by creating a blanket
<br>
prohibition, i fear more damage
will be done to
<br>
legitimate interests than good is
done to
<br>
illegitimate ones.
<br>
In the end it should be up to the
provider
<br>
which categories of clients it
<br>
accepts.
<br>
Volker
<br>
Am 20.01.2014 02:08, schrieb Bob
Bruen:
<br>
<br>
Hi Stephanie,
<br>
<br>
It is entirely possible to
decide to bar
<br>
commercial entities, create a
<br>
definition of "comercial entities"
and
<br>
then deal with those which
appear to
<br>
problematical.
<br>
<br>
The fraudsters probably will
not be a
<br>
set up as a legitimate bussiness,
<br>
but their sites can be identified
as
<br>
spam, malware, etc types and
thus taking
<br>
money, therefore a business. I
<br>
am sure there are other methods to
deal
<br>
with problem domain names.
<br>
<br>
In general, exceptions or
problems
<br>
should not derail a process.
<br>
<br>
--bob
<br>
<br>
On Sun, 19 Jan 2014,
Stephanie Perrin
<br>
wrote:
<br>
<br>
I dont want to keep
beating a dead
<br>
horse here....but if there is
<br>
a resounding
<br>
response of "yes
indeed, bar
<br>
commercial entities from using P/P
<br>
services", then
<br>
how are you going to
propose that
<br>
p/p proxy service providers
<br>
determine who is a
<br>
commercial entity,
particularly in
<br>
jurisdictions which have
<br>
declined to regulate
<br>
the provision of goods
and
<br>
services over the Internet? I don't
<br>
like asking
<br>
questions that walk us
into
<br>
corners we cannot get out of. Do the
<br>
fraudsters we
<br>
are worried about
actually apply
<br>
for business numbers and
<br>
articles of
<br>
incorporation in the
jurisdictions
<br>
in which they operate? I
<br>
operate in a
<br>
jurisdiction where this
<br>
distinction is often extremely difficult
<br>
to make. THe
<br>
determination would
depend on the
<br>
precise use being made of the
<br>
domain
<br>
name....which gets
ICANN squarely
<br>
into content analysis, and
<br>
which can hardly be
<br>
done for new
registrations, even
<br>
if t were within ICANN's remit.
<br>
I am honestly
<br>
not trying to be
difficult, but I
<br>
just have not heard a good
<br>
answer to this
<br>
problem.
<br>
Stephanie Perrin
<br>
On 2014-01-19, at 4:38
PM, Holly
<br>
Raiche wrote:
<br>
<br>
Jin and all
<br>
I agree with Jim here
(and Don
<br>
earlier). The important task here
<br>
is
<br>
agreeing on the
questions to be
<br>
asked of the SO/ACs. So we need
<br>
to get
<br>
back to framing the
questions -
<br>
not answering them, however
<br>
tempting that
<br>
may be.
<br>
<br>
So the question of
whether
<br>
'commercial entities' should be barred
<br>
is still
<br>
a useful question to
ask. The next
<br>
question would be whether
<br>
there are
<br>
possible distinctions
that should
<br>
be drawn between an entity that
<br>
can use
<br>
the service and one
that can't
<br>
and, if so, where is the line
<br>
drawn. I agree
<br>
with the discussion on
how
<br>
difficult that will be because many
<br>
entities
<br>
that have corporate
status also
<br>
have reasonable grounds for
<br>
wanting the
<br>
protection of such a
service
<br>
(human rights organisations or
<br>
women's refuges
<br>
come to mind). But
that is the
<br>
sort of response we are seeking
<br>
from
<br>
others outside of this
group - so
<br>
let's not prejudge answers.
<br>
Let's only
<br>
frame the questions
that will help
<br>
us come to some sensible
<br>
answers.
<br>
Otherwise, we'll never
get to the
<br>
next steps.
<br>
<br>
And my apologies for
the next
<br>
meeting. I have a long day ahead
<br>
on
<br>
Wednesday (Sydney time)
and taking
<br>
calls at 2.00am won't help.
<br>
So Ill read
<br>
the transcript and be
back in a
<br>
fortnight (2 weeks for those who
<br>
do not use
<br>
the term)
<br>
<br>
Holly
<br>
<br>
On 16/01/2014, at 5:39
AM, Jim
<br>
Bikoff wrote:
<br>
<br>
Don and all,
<br>
<br>
As we suggested
earlier, and
<br>
discussed in the last Group
<br>
teleconference, it
might be
<br>
helpful, as a next step, if we
<br>
reached a
<br>
consensus on the groups
of
<br>
questions before sending them out to
<br>
SO/ACs and SG/Cs.
<br>
<br>
This would involve two
steps:
<br>
First, agreeing on the name of each
<br>
group; and second,
streamlining
<br>
the questions in each group.
<br>
<br>
In the first step, we
could
<br>
consider alternative headings
<br>
(perhaps
<br>
REGISTRATION instead of
<br>
MAINTENANCE).
<br>
<br>
And in the second step,
we could
<br>
remove duplicative or vague
<br>
questions.
<br>
<br>
This crystallization
would make
<br>
the questions more approachable,
<br>
and
<br>
encourage better
responses.
<br>
<br>
I hope these ideas are
helpful.
<br>
<br>
Best,
<br>
<br>
Jim
<br>
<br>
James L. Bikoff
<br>
Silverberg, Goldman
& Bikoff, LLP
<br>
1101 30th Street, NW
<br>
Suite 120
<br>
Washington, DC 20007
<br>
Tel: 202-944-3303
<br>
Fax: 202-944-3306
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:jbikoff@sgbdc.com">jbikoff@sgbdc.com</a>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
From: Don Blumenthal
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:dblumenthal@pir.org"><dblumenthal@pir.org></a>
<br>
Date: January 14, 2014
11:09:23 AM
<br>
EST
<br>
To: PPSAI
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org"><gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org></a>
<br>
Subject:
[Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg]
<br>
Carlton's closing chat question
<br>
Carlton posted an
issue that
<br>
shouldn¹t wait a week:
<br>
<br>
³John came up with 4
groups. Do we
<br>
have a notion that others
<br>
might be extracted?
And where do
<br>
we include/modify questions
<br>
to address Stephanie's
issue?"
<br>
<br>
Jim had four groups and
an
<br>
umbrella Main category, which may be
<br>
instructive in itself
in guiding
<br>
how we proceed
<br>
organizationally.
Regardless, the
<br>
consensus of commenters has
<br>
been that his document
is a
<br>
significant improvement over where
<br>
we were before, and I
suggest that
<br>
we use it as a baseline.
<br>
However, we still have
work to do
<br>
on it. Feel free to suggest
<br>
modifications.
<br>
<br>
Don
<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________
<br>
Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg
mailing list
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org">Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org</a>
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg</a>
<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________
<br>
Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg
mailing list
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org">Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org</a>
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg</a>
<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________
<br>
Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg
mailing list
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org">Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org</a>
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg</a>
<br>
_______________________________________________
<br>
Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg mailing list
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org">Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org</a>
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg</a>
<br>
<br>
<br>
--
<br>
Dr. Robert Bruen
<br>
Cold Rain Labs
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://coldrain.net/bruen">http://coldrain.net/bruen</a>
<br>
+1.802.579.6288
<br>
_______________________________________________
<br>
Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg mailing list
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org">Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org</a>
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg</a>
<br>
_______________________________________________
<br>
Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg mailing list
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org">Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org</a>
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg</a>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________
<br>
Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg mailing list
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org">Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org</a>
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg</a>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
--
<br>
Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
<br>
<br>
Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
<br>
<br>
Volker A. Greimann
<br>
- Rechtsabteilung -
<br>
<br>
Key-Systems GmbH
<br>
Im Oberen Werk 1
<br>
66386 St. Ingbert
<br>
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
<br>
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
<br>
Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net">vgreimann@key-systems.net</a>
<br>
<br>
Web: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.key-systems.net">www.key-systems.net</a> / <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.RRPproxy.net">www.RRPproxy.net</a>
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.domaindiscount24.com">www.domaindiscount24.com</a> / <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.BrandShelter.com">www.BrandShelter.com</a>
<br>
<br>
Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei
Facebook:
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems">www.facebook.com/KeySystems</a>
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.twitter.com/key_systems">www.twitter.com/key_systems</a>
<br>
<br>
Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin
<br>
Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
<br>
Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534
<br>
<br>
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.keydrive.lu">www.keydrive.lu</a>
<br>
<br>
Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den
angegebenen
<br>
Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe,
Veröffentlichung oder
<br>
Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig.
Sollte diese
<br>
Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich
mit uns
<br>
per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
<br>
<br>
--------------------------------------------
<br>
<br>
Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate
to contact
<br>
us.
<br>
<br>
Best regards,
<br>
<br>
Volker A. Greimann
<br>
- legal department -
<br>
<br>
Key-Systems GmbH
<br>
Im Oberen Werk 1
<br>
66386 St. Ingbert
<br>
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
<br>
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
<br>
Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net">vgreimann@key-systems.net</a>
<br>
<br>
Web: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.key-systems.net">www.key-systems.net</a> / <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.RRPproxy.net">www.RRPproxy.net</a>
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.domaindiscount24.com">www.domaindiscount24.com</a> / <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.BrandShelter.com">www.BrandShelter.com</a>
<br>
<br>
Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and
stay
<br>
updated:
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems">www.facebook.com/KeySystems</a>
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.twitter.com/key_systems">www.twitter.com/key_systems</a>
<br>
<br>
CEO: Alexander Siffrin
<br>
Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
<br>
V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
<br>
<br>
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.keydrive.lu">www.keydrive.lu</a>
<br>
<br>
This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the
person to whom
<br>
it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish
any content
<br>
of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely
on this
<br>
e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected
this
<br>
e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or
contacting
<br>
us by telephone.
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________
<br>
Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg mailing list
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org">Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org</a>
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg</a>
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
_______________________________________________
<br>
Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg mailing list
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org">Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org</a>
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg</a>
<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
<br>
<fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
<br>
<pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org">Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg</a></pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
</body>
</html>