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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">We have to bear in mind that we are working on an accreditation process that would be applicable both to p/p service providers that are alter egos for registrars,
and those that are not. In the former case, the assertion that “if a set of data has already been verified by the registrar, there is no need for the p/p provider to again verify the same data” may be relevant. In the latter case, it is not.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Even when this assertion is relevant, it may not be persuasive, for a number of reasons. For example, the Whois data reminder obligation applies to the registrant
of record. In the case of a proxy service, the registrant or record is the service, not its customer. If a Whois data reminder is sent to a non-proxy registrant and bounces back, then the RAA requires the registrar to re-verify. But a data reminder sent
to a proxy service will almost never bounce back, and therefore there may be no RAA obligation to re-verify. This is so even if the customer data provided to the service is inaccurate or outdated. In this circumstance it is up to the p/p service accreditation
standards to specify the conditions under which customer data must be re-verified.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">There are other issues going to the degree of verification of registrant data that is required under the RAA, but my point here is that even if the registrar’s
data verification obligations are to be used as the model for the verification obligations of the p/p service provider, they don’t all map from one context to the other.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Steve Metalitz<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext"> gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org [mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Volker Greimann<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, February 28, 2014 6:29 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] For review - updated templates Cat B, questions 1 and 2<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">Hi John, <br>
<br>
I am having a bit of a hard time understanding your point here.<br>
<br>
You are describing three different cases here, two of which will not benefit from verification in the least bit and one might, but only in some cases:<br>
<br>
a) The data is accurate, but stolen: Here verification would not uncover any issues with the data as it is essentially correct and will most likely be identified as accurate.<br>
b) The data is false: Here, depending on the methods used, the inaccuracy may be uncovered and would lead to an automated request to provide updated data or deactivation after a set time. Remember, in order to keep providing services in a sensible manner, this
needs to be automated in some form, i.e. no individual record would likely see any manual review.<br>
c) The data is already accurate: If the data is already correct, what purpose does verification fulfill? The data cannot become more accurate. Verification in this case seems like an exercise in self-gratification.<br>
<br>
That said, even if there is a benefit to be derived from verification, such benefits are achieved once verification concludes. Re-verification of already verified data fulfills no purpose whatsoever. So if a set of data has already been verified by the registrar,
there is no need for the p/p provider to again verify the same data. Only if no verification is or can be performed on the registrar level does verification by providers come into play.<br>
<br>
Volker<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Am 28.02.2014 00:32, schrieb John Horton:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#073763">Thanks, Marika. I also wanted to provide a comment pertaining to Question 2 in the attachments (relating to periodic checks).</span><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#222222"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#222222"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#073763">In a few of the recent discussions, there's been some reference to criminals always or nearly always being untruthful in their Whois records (even if privacy-protected), leading
to the conclusion that there is little purpose in having a registrar or any third party have to verify or re-verify the information (especially if it is difficult to prove that the data is falsified). I wanted to share our experience and observations on that
point, in the hope that it's relevant to future discussion regarding Question 2.</span><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#222222"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#222222"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#073763">Our consistent observation has been that when it comes to a particular sub-category of criminal activity, spam, phishing, malware, and so forth, it's probably safe to say that
that statement is true -- the registrant's Whois information is nearly always inaccurate. Even in cases, such as some where we've worked with law enforcement, when the Whois record for a domain name involved in spam, phishing or malware is privacy-protected
and is subsequently unmasked, the Whois record is still not accurate behind the privacy curtain. There are probably exceptions, but that's what we've seen well over 95% of the time. On occasion, it's a real address and phone number, just not one genuinely
connected to the registrant. </span><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#222222"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#222222"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#073763">But there are other types of criminal activity where the Whois record is not so regularly obfuscated. For example, we investigate a lot of websites selling tainted dietary supplements
that end up containing some toxin or adulterant that harms people. In those cases, we've overwhelmingly seen that even if the Whois record is privacy-protected, the trend is that the underlying Whois record is accurate. The same has been true for illegal or
counterfeit medical device websites that we've researched. On illegal Internet pharmacies not engaged in spam, it's probably 50-50. (It might be a shell corporation, but that's still valuable information.)</span><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#222222"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#222222"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#073763">One important point to consider is that the Whois registration can be relevant information from a banking perspective for commercial entities. That is, some banks are going to
look at an online merchant's domain name registration record and if it's either inaccurate or protected, they may require disclosure, or ask about any discrepancy, which can be an incentive for criminals selling products online who nevertheless want to get
paid via credit card to have an accurate Whois. Hackers, malware providers and spammers will find a way around that, but they don't necessarily constitute "most" criminal activity.</span><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#222222"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#222222"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#073763">The point here is, I think verification can still be a useful and necessary tool in either scenario, even if it doesn't uncover useful information a portion of the time. I realize
that only pertains to a portion of the issues related to Question 2, but I hope that our observations on that are relevant. </span><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#222222"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#222222"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#073763">Thanks, </span><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#222222"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br clear="all">
<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#073763">John Horton<br>
President, LegitScript</span> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <img width="96" height="21" id="_x0000_i1025" src="https://static.legitscript.com/assets/logo-smaller-cdb8a6f307ce2c6172e72257dc6dfc34.png"><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><b><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#444444">Follow</span></b><b><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#0B5394">
</span></b><b><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"">Legit</span></b><b><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#0B5394">Script</span></b><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"">:
<a href="http://www.linkedin.com/company/legitscript-com" target="_blank"><span style="color:#CC0000">LinkedIn</span></a> | <a href="https://www.facebook.com/LegitScript" target="_blank"><span style="color:#6AA84F">Facebook</span></a> | <a href="https://twitter.com/legitscript" target="_blank"><span style="color:#674EA7">Twitter</span></a>
| <a href="https://www.youtube.com/user/LegitScript" target="_blank"><span style="color:#BF9000">YouTube</span></a> | </span><u><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#FF9900"><a href="http://blog.legitscript.com" target="_blank">Blog</a></span></u><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"">
|</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#FF9900"> <a href="https://plus.google.com/112436813474708014933/posts" target="_blank">Google+</a></span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif""><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Wed, Feb 26, 2014 at 2:39 AM, Marika Konings <<a href="mailto:marika.konings@icann.org" target="_blank">marika.konings@icann.org</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">Dear All,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">Following our call yesterday, please find attached the updated templates for Category B – questions 1 & 2. Please review these templates to make sure the WG discussions have
been accurately reflected and feel free to share any comments / edits you may have with the mailing list. We've created a page on the wiki where we'll post the templates that have been finalised for now (noting that for some of these the WG will need to come
back to the template at a later date), see <a href="https://community.icann.org/x/ihLRAg" target="_blank">https://community.icann.org/x/ihLRAg</a>. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">The WG will continue its deliberations on Category B – Question 2 next week. Some of the questions that came up during the conversation yesterday and which you are encouraged
to share your views on (and/or add additional questions that need to be considered in this context) are:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<ul type="disc">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">
<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">What would be the arguments for not using the same standards / requirements for validation and verification as per the 2013 RAA?<o:p></o:p></span></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">
<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">Should there be a requirement for re-verification, and if so, what instances would trigger such re-verification?<o:p></o:p></span></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">
<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">In case of affliction between the P/P service and the registrar, if the registration information has already been verified by the registrar, should this exempt the P/P provider from doing so?<o:p></o:p></span></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">
<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">Should the same requirements apply to privacy and proxy services or is there a reason to distinguish between the two?<o:p></o:p></span></li></ul>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">Best regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">Marika<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org">Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org</a><br>
<a href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg" target="_blank">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href="mailto:Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org">Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<pre>-- <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>Mit freundlichen Grüßen,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>Volker A. Greimann<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>- Rechtsabteilung -<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>Key-Systems GmbH<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Im Oberen Werk 1<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>66386 St. Ingbert<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Email: <a href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net">vgreimann@key-systems.net</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>Web: <a href="http://www.key-systems.net">www.key-systems.net</a> / <a href="http://www.RRPproxy.net">www.RRPproxy.net</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href="http://www.domaindiscount24.com">www.domaindiscount24.com</a> / <a href="http://www.BrandShelter.com">www.BrandShelter.com</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href="http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems">www.facebook.com/KeySystems</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href="http://www.twitter.com/key_systems">www.twitter.com/key_systems</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href="http://www.keydrive.lu">www.keydrive.lu</a> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>--------------------------------------------<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>Best regards,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>Volker A. Greimann<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>- legal department -<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>Key-Systems GmbH<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Im Oberen Werk 1<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>66386 St. Ingbert<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Email: <a href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net">vgreimann@key-systems.net</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>Web: <a href="http://www.key-systems.net">www.key-systems.net</a> / <a href="http://www.RRPproxy.net">www.RRPproxy.net</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href="http://www.domaindiscount24.com">www.domaindiscount24.com</a> / <a href="http://www.BrandShelter.com">www.BrandShelter.com</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href="http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems">www.facebook.com/KeySystems</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href="http://www.twitter.com/key_systems">www.twitter.com/key_systems</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>CEO: Alexander Siffrin<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href="http://www.keydrive.lu">www.keydrive.lu</a> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.<o:p></o:p></pre>
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