<div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;color:#073763">Well, because absent an accurate Whois record, it can be difficult to know who to hold accountable.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;color:#073763">
<br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;color:#073763">Stephanie, to clarify: I was saying that 95% of Whois data in a certain sub-category of criminal or miscreant behavior (spam, malware, phishing) is <u>inaccurate</u> (not "accurate"). </div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all"><div><div dir="ltr"><font color="#073763" face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif">John Horton<br>President, LegitScript</font><div> <img src="https://static.legitscript.com/assets/logo-smaller-cdb8a6f307ce2c6172e72257dc6dfc34.png" width="96" height="21"><br>
<div><div><p style="margin:0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px;font:12.0px Helvetica"><br></p><p style="margin:0px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-size:12px;line-height:normal;font-family:Helvetica"><b><font color="#444444">Follow</font><font color="#0b5394"> </font><font color="#000000">Legit</font><font color="#0b5394">Script</font></b>: <a href="http://www.linkedin.com/company/legitscript-com" style="font-weight:normal" target="_blank"><font color="#cc0000">LinkedIn</font></a> | <a href="https://www.facebook.com/LegitScript" style="font-weight:normal" target="_blank"><font color="#6aa84f">Facebook</font></a> | <a href="https://twitter.com/legitscript" style="font-weight:normal" target="_blank"><font color="#674ea7">Twitter</font></a> | <a href="https://www.youtube.com/user/LegitScript" style="font-weight:normal" target="_blank"><font color="#bf9000">YouTube</font></a> | <font color="#ff9900"><u><a href="http://blog.legitscript.com" target="_blank">Blog</a></u></font> |<font color="#ff9900"> <font style="font-weight:normal"><a href="https://plus.google.com/112436813474708014933/posts" target="_blank">Google+</a></font></font></p>
</div></div></div></div></div>
<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Feb 28, 2014 at 9:44 AM, Stephanie Perrin <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:stephanie.perrin@mail.utoronto.ca" target="_blank">stephanie.perrin@mail.utoronto.ca</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style="word-wrap:break-word">I agree, it is all about risk...but what risk are we really talking about? I dont understand why a P/P provider should be forced to take on more risk than other registrars. Further,why should the registrar be accountable for verified data, once the original data verification is done. If John is correct and in 95% of cases the data from the P/P service provider was proven accurate, then how does any amount of data verification solve the problem? The accountability for miscreant behaviour of all kinds rests with the domain name user. IF the data is inaccurate, ramp up the penalties if it can be shown that the data was rendered inaccurate for the purposes of fraudulent activity. <div>
At the risk of sounding overly philosophical, It seems to me that the Internet ecosystem is somehow being held to account for the actions of individuals. It is the individuals that should be held to account. Not the domain name, or the company that issued it. Particularly, I think that if products sold are tainted, then there is plenty of other consumer protection law that applies...why are we trying to solve that problem? </div>
<div>Cheers Stephanie perrin<div><div class="h5"><br><div><div>On 2014-02-28, at 12:29 PM, Carlton Samuels wrote:</div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr"><div style="font-family:comic sans ms,sans-serif;font-size:large">
..which seems to me all about risk management on part of the provider. Its the results that matter.</div><div style="font-family:comic sans ms,sans-serif;font-size:large">
<br></div><div style="font-family:comic sans ms,sans-serif;font-size:large">So, for all the possible permutations, in line with those enumerated by Volker, might it not be more useful to refer 'verified credentials' as a requirement on the provider, allow them to accept the business risk and leave it to them to decide how to do it.......and, inherently, the risks acceptable to them for provisioning the service?</div>
<div style="font-family:comic sans ms,sans-serif;font-size:large"><br></div><div style="font-family:comic sans ms,sans-serif;font-size:large">-Carlton </div></div><div class="gmail_extra">
<br clear="all"><div><br>==============================<br>Carlton A Samuels<br>Mobile: <a href="tel:876-818-1799" value="+18768181799" target="_blank">876-818-1799</a><br><i><font color="#33CC00">Strategy, Planning, Governance, Assessment & Turnaround</font></i><br>
=============================</div>
<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Feb 28, 2014 at 6:29 AM, Volker Greimann <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net" target="_blank">vgreimann@key-systems.net</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
Hi John, <br>
<br>
I am having a bit of a hard time understanding your point here.<br>
<br>
You are describing three different cases here, two of which will not
benefit from verification in the least bit and one might, but only
in some cases:<br>
<br>
a) The data is accurate, but stolen: Here verification would not
uncover any issues with the data as it is essentially correct and
will most likely be identified as accurate.<br>
b) The data is false: Here, depending on the methods used, the
inaccuracy may be uncovered and would lead to an automated request
to provide updated data or deactivation after a set time. Remember,
in order to keep providing services in a sensible manner, this needs
to be automated in some form, i.e. no individual record would likely
see any manual review.<br>
c) The data is already accurate: If the data is already correct,
what purpose does verification fulfill? The data cannot become more
accurate. Verification in this case seems like an exercise in
self-gratification.<br>
<br>
That said, even if there is a benefit to be derived from
verification, such benefits are achieved once verification
concludes. Re-verification of already verified data fulfills no
purpose whatsoever. So if a set of data has already been verified by
the registrar, there is no need for the p/p provider to again verify
the same data. Only if no verification is or can be performed on the
registrar level does verification by providers come into play.<br>
<br>
Volker<br>
<br>
<div>Am 28.02.2014 00:32, schrieb John
Horton:<br>
</div><div><div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;color:rgb(7,55,99)">
<div style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial"><font color="#073763" face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif">Thanks,
Marika. I also wanted to provide a comment pertaining to
Question 2 in the attachments (relating to periodic
checks).</font></div>
<div style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial"><font color="#073763" face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><br>
</font></div>
<div style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial">
<span style="color:rgb(7,55,99);font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">In
a few of the recent discussions, there's been some
reference to criminals always or nearly always being
untruthful in their Whois records (even if
privacy-protected), leading to the conclusion that there
is little purpose in having a registrar or any third party
have to verify or re-verify the information (especially if
it is difficult to prove that the data is falsified). I
wanted to share our experience and observations on that
point, in the hope that it's relevant to future discussion
regarding Question 2.</span><br>
</div>
<div style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial"><font color="#073763" face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><br>
</font></div>
<div style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial">
<font color="#073763" face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif">Our
consistent observation has been that when it comes to a
particular sub-category of criminal activity, spam,
phishing, malware, and so forth, it's probably safe to say
that that statement is true -- the registrant's Whois
information is nearly always inaccurate. Even in cases,
such as some where we've worked with law enforcement, when
the Whois record for a domain name involved in spam,
phishing or malware is privacy-protected and is
subsequently unmasked, the Whois record is still not
accurate behind the privacy curtain. There are probably
exceptions, but that's what we've seen well over 95% of
the time. On occasion, it's a real address and phone
number, just not one genuinely connected to the
registrant. </font></div>
<div style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial"><font color="#073763" face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><br>
</font></div>
<div style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial">
<font color="#073763" face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif">But
there are other types of criminal activity where the Whois
record is not so regularly obfuscated. For example, we
investigate a lot of websites selling tainted dietary
supplements that end up containing some toxin or
adulterant that harms people. In those cases, we've
overwhelmingly seen that even if the Whois record is
privacy-protected, the trend is that the underlying Whois
record is accurate. The same has been true for illegal or
counterfeit medical device websites that we've researched.
On illegal Internet pharmacies not engaged in spam, it's
probably 50-50. (It might be a shell corporation, but
that's still valuable information.)</font></div>
<div style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial"><font color="#073763" face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><br>
</font></div>
<div style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial">
<font color="#073763" face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif">One
important point to consider is that the Whois registration
can be relevant information from a banking perspective for
commercial entities. That is, some banks are going to look
at an online merchant's domain name registration record
and if it's either inaccurate or protected, they may
require disclosure, or ask about any discrepancy, which
can be an incentive for criminals selling products online
who nevertheless want to get paid via credit card to have
an accurate Whois. Hackers, malware providers and spammers
will find a way around that, but they don't necessarily
constitute "most" criminal activity.</font></div>
<div style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial"><font color="#073763" face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><br>
</font></div>
<div style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial">
<font color="#073763" face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif">The
point here is, I think verification can still be a useful
and necessary tool in either scenario, even if it doesn't
uncover useful information a portion of the time. I
realize that only pertains to a portion of the issues
related to Question 2, but I hope that our observations on
that are relevant. </font></div>
<div style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial"><font color="#073763" face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><br>
</font></div>
<div style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial">
<font color="#073763" face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif">Thanks, </font></div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all">
<div>
<div dir="ltr"><font color="#073763" face="arial, helvetica,
sans-serif">John Horton<br>
President, LegitScript</font>
<div> <img src="https://static.legitscript.com/assets/logo-smaller-cdb8a6f307ce2c6172e72257dc6dfc34.png" width="96" height="21"><br>
<div>
<div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;font:normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica"><br>
</div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-size:12px;line-height:normal;font-family:Helvetica"><b><font color="#444444">Follow</font><font color="#0b5394"> </font><font color="#000000">Legit</font><font color="#0b5394">Script</font></b>: <a href="http://www.linkedin.com/company/legitscript-com" style="font-weight:normal" target="_blank"><font color="#cc0000">LinkedIn</font></a> | <a href="https://www.facebook.com/LegitScript" style="font-weight:normal" target="_blank"><font color="#6aa84f">Facebook</font></a> | <a href="https://twitter.com/legitscript" style="font-weight:normal" target="_blank"><font color="#674ea7">Twitter</font></a> | <a href="https://www.youtube.com/user/LegitScript" style="font-weight:normal" target="_blank"><font color="#bf9000">YouTube</font></a> | <font color="#ff9900"><u><a href="http://blog.legitscript.com/" target="_blank">Blog</a></u></font> |<font color="#ff9900"> <font style="font-weight:normal"><a href="https://plus.google.com/112436813474708014933/posts" target="_blank">Google+</a></font></font></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Feb 26, 2014 at 2:39 AM,
Marika Konings <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:marika.konings@icann.org" target="_blank">marika.konings@icann.org</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div style="font-size:14px;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;word-wrap:break-word">
<div>Dear All,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Following our call yesterday, please find attached
the updated templates for Category B – questions 1
& 2. Please review these templates to make sure
the WG discussions have been accurately reflected and
feel free to share any comments / edits you may have
with the mailing list. We've created a page on the
wiki where we'll post the templates that have been
finalised for now (noting that for some of these the
WG will need to come back to the template at a later
date), see <a href="https://community.icann.org/x/ihLRAg" target="_blank">https://community.icann.org/x/ihLRAg</a>. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The WG will continue its deliberations on Category
B – Question 2 next week. Some of the questions that
came up during the conversation yesterday and which
you are encouraged to share your views on (and/or add
additional questions that need to be considered in
this context) are:</div>
<ul>
<li>What would be the arguments for not using the same
standards / requirements for validation and
verification as per the 2013 RAA?</li>
<li>Should there be a requirement for re-verification,
and if so, what instances would trigger such
re-verification?</li>
<li>In case of affliction between the P/P service and
the registrar, if the registration information has
already been verified by the registrar, should this
exempt the P/P provider from doing so?</li>
<li>Should the same requirements apply to privacy and
proxy services or is there a reason to distinguish
between the two?</li>
</ul>
<div>Best regards,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Marika</div>
</div>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org" target="_blank">Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org</a><br>
<a href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg" target="_blank">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg</a><br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset></fieldset>
<br>
<pre>_______________________________________________
Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg mailing list
<a href="mailto:Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org" target="_blank">Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org</a>
<a href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg" target="_blank">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg</a></pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
</div></div><pre cols="72">--
Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Volker A. Greimann
- Rechtsabteilung -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: <a href="tel:%2B49%20%280%29%206894%20-%209396%20901" value="+4968949396901" target="_blank">+49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901</a>
Fax.: <a href="tel:%2B49%20%280%29%206894%20-%209396%20851" value="+4968949396851" target="_blank">+49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851</a>
Email: <a href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net" target="_blank">vgreimann@key-systems.net</a>
Web: <a href="http://www.key-systems.net/" target="_blank">www.key-systems.net</a> / <a href="http://www.RRPproxy.net/" target="_blank">www.RRPproxy.net</a>
<a href="http://www.domaindiscount24.com/" target="_blank">www.domaindiscount24.com</a> / <a href="http://www.BrandShelter.com/" target="_blank">www.BrandShelter.com</a>
Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:
<a href="http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems" target="_blank">www.facebook.com/KeySystems</a>
<a href="http://www.twitter.com/key_systems" target="_blank">www.twitter.com/key_systems</a>
Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin
Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
<a href="http://www.keydrive.lu/" target="_blank">www.keydrive.lu</a>
Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
--------------------------------------------
Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
Best regards,
Volker A. Greimann
- legal department -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: <a href="tel:%2B49%20%280%29%206894%20-%209396%20901" value="+4968949396901" target="_blank">+49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901</a>
Fax.: <a href="tel:%2B49%20%280%29%206894%20-%209396%20851" value="+4968949396851" target="_blank">+49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851</a>
Email: <a href="mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net" target="_blank">vgreimann@key-systems.net</a>
Web: <a href="http://www.key-systems.net/" target="_blank">www.key-systems.net</a> / <a href="http://www.RRPproxy.net/" target="_blank">www.RRPproxy.net</a>
<a href="http://www.domaindiscount24.com/" target="_blank">www.domaindiscount24.com</a> / <a href="http://www.BrandShelter.com/" target="_blank">www.BrandShelter.com</a>
Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:
<a href="http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems" target="_blank">www.facebook.com/KeySystems</a>
<a href="http://www.twitter.com/key_systems" target="_blank">www.twitter.com/key_systems</a>
CEO: Alexander Siffrin
Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
<a href="http://www.keydrive.lu/" target="_blank">www.keydrive.lu</a>
This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
</pre>
</div>
<br>_______________________________________________<br>
Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org" target="_blank">Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org</a><br>
<a href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg" target="_blank">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg</a><br></blockquote></div><br></div>
_______________________________________________<br>Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg mailing list<br><a href="mailto:Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org" target="_blank">Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org</a><br><a href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg" target="_blank">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg</a></blockquote>
</div><br></div></div></div></div><br>_______________________________________________<br>
Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org">Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org</a><br>
<a href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg" target="_blank">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg</a><br></blockquote></div><br></div></div>