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Hi John,<br>
<br>
the problem is that commercial use is a very wide scope. Some courts
have held that providing space for Google Ads on your private blog
can be held to be commercial use. Or if I linked to an ebay auction
I set up and mentioned that in my blog, it could be construed to be
commercially used. Does that mean I lose my right to use a privacy
service?<br>
<br>
What about little work-from-home shops selling self-made stuff
online? Do they really have to put their home address on their
domain? If I were an activist for religion (or lack thereof), womens
rights, abotrion, death penalty and sell stickers promoting my cause
in a small webshop, do I suddenly have to tell every nutter out
there where I live?<br>
<br>
While I agree that there may be abuse of the services provided by
whois privacy, I do not agree that commercial activity is where we
should draw the line. Illegal activity using such services is what
needs to be prohibited, nothing else.<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
<br>
Volker<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CADW+euuvOuexSeZSCsyxBRvHE-4K209zvxOuyPTrUk1BNfBTvw@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;color:#073763"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;color:#073763">
I think it's important to note that nobody is currently
proposing that commercial entities shouldn't be allowed to use
p/p services. (Put aside the text in Bob's email, because I am
guessing that is not what he actually meant. Anyway, it's not
what's proposed in the paper.) Rather, the proposal is that
p/p services should not be allowed for domain names <u>used
for commercial purposes</u>. The status of the registrant as
a registered business, or as an individual, is irrelevant. For
some specific discussion on this point, I'd encourage you to
review pages 8-9 of the document that Libby disseminated. </div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;color:#073763"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;color:#073763">To
your specific point, pre-launch trademark searching and
clearance wouldn't be "using the domain name" for "commercial
activity" as it's contemplated. To be precise, the registrant
might be engaged in commercial activity in other ways, but <u>not
involving the use of the domain name</u>. The idea is that
if a website is actually selling goods and services, either
via the domain name or some website that it points to (e.g.,
all of the product are listed at <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://example.com" target="_blank">example.com</a>,
but it points to <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://paypal.com" target="_blank">paypal.com</a> for
transactions), that would be a commercial <u>use</u> of a
domain name. If you've just registered a domain name in
preparation for the launch of a new brand or product line, but
the domain name isn't actually transacting business, I don't
think it's commercial <u>use</u>. We're talking about
situations where you select a product, put it in your cart,
pull out your credit card, and conduct a financial
transaction, and I'd argue that Internet users have the right
to an accurate, transparent Whois record at that point in
time. In any case, I think that these issues are discussed in
more detail in the document, and in particular, pages 8-9. </div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;color:#073763"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;color:#073763">Let
me answer your earlier question about <a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://medsindia.com"
target="_blank">medsindia.com</a>. But first, let me first
point out that in numerous cases where we've submitted
evidence to registrars about rogue Internet pharmacies, they
respond, "We unfortunately cannot take any action unless you
prove that the Whois record is inaccurate." (Put aside for a
moment any disagreement with this response [I do not think
it's accurate]; the point is that it's a common response by
some, although not all, registrars.)</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;color:#073763"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;color:#073763">So,
to your question, there are two possibilities:</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="">
<ol style="">
<li style=""><font color="#073763" face="arial, helvetica,
sans-serif">The domain name is accurately registered.
Great; now, perhaps, law enforcement or the courts can
take action as appropriate. </font></li>
<li style=""><font color="#073763" face="arial, helvetica,
sans-serif">Or, it's a falsified or inaccurate Whois.
Even if it takes a little leg work, the inaccurate
nature of the Whois information can be established, and
a WDPRS complaint can be submitted. Either the Whois is
corrected, or it isn't and the domain name is
suspended. </font></li>
</ol>
<div><font color="#073763" face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif">In
other words, if some registrars say, "The only enforcement
mechanism we're going to recognize against domain names is
a) a court order in our jurisdiction, or b) a false
Whois," <u>medsindia</u>.com is an example where all
options are off the table. As explained, Canadian law
enforcement has no jurisdiction because Canada is the one
country where the drugs aren't shipped to; and a WDPRS is
off the table because there's no way to prove the Whois is
falsified -- it's behind a p/p service. </font></div>
<div><font color="#073763" face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font color="#073763" face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif">Hope
that helps!</font></div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all">
<div>
<div dir="ltr"><font color="#073763" face="arial, helvetica,
sans-serif">John Horton<br>
President, LegitScript</font>
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<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, May 13, 2014 at 9:37 AM,
McGrady, Paul D. <span dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:PMcGrady@winston.com" target="_blank">PMcGrady@winston.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Hi Kiran,<br>
<br>
I'm not sure how pre-launch trademark searching and
clearance isn't a commercial activity. Further, Bob's
email said: "This is one of the reasons for keeping whois
data public for commercial entities." There is a big
difference between excluding proxy services for commercial
entities vs excluding proxy services for websites that
resolve and contain commercial content ("This is one of
the reasons for keeping whois data public for commercial
entities.").<br>
<br>
What is actually being proposed?<br>
<div class="im HOEnZb"><br>
Best,<br>
Paul<br>
<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Kiran Malancharuvil [mailto:<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:Kiran.Malancharuvil@markmonitor.com">Kiran.Malancharuvil@markmonitor.com</a>]<br>
</div>
<div class="HOEnZb">
<div class="h5">Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 2014 8:31 AM<br>
To: McGrady, Paul D.<br>
Cc: John Horton; <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org">gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org</a><br>
Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Commercial Use -
White Paper<br>
<br>
Paul, we've discussed that as well. With the input
from several of our clients that engage in this as a
best practice, we understand that a pre-launch website
would be able to utilize p/p because it is not yet
engaging in commercial activity. Once the
product/service goes live and is an active offering,
it can drop the veil so-to-speak.<br>
<br>
K<br>
<br>
Kiran Malancharuvil<br>
Internet Policy Counselor<br>
MarkMonitor<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="tel:415-419-9138"
value="+14154199138">415-419-9138</a> (m)<br>
<br>
Sent from my mobile, please excuse any typos.<br>
<br>
> On May 12, 2014, at 5:27 PM, "McGrady, Paul D."
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:PMcGrady@winston.com">PMcGrady@winston.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
><br>
> Thanks Kiran. Thanks Bob.<br>
><br>
> The other side of the balancing act on this is,
of course, the legitimate need for commercial entities
to have access to proxy services. For example, a
brand owner who is trying to roll out a new brand and
attempting to secure the corresponding domain names in
advance of their first trademark filing in order to
cut down on the amount of cybersquatting.<br>
><br>
> Best,<br>
> Paul<br>
><br>
><br>
> -----Original Message-----<br>
> From: Kiran Malancharuvil [mailto:<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:Kiran.Malancharuvil@markmonitor.com">Kiran.Malancharuvil@markmonitor.com</a>]<br>
> Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 2014 8:25 AM<br>
> To: McGrady, Paul D.<br>
> Cc: John Horton; <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org">gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org</a><br>
> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Commercial Use -
White Paper<br>
><br>
> Paul,<br>
><br>
> Agree with Bob. No one expects them to be honest
but with the new verification requirements, they will
lose the domain name.<br>
><br>
> K<br>
><br>
> Kiran Malancharuvil<br>
> Internet Policy Counselor<br>
> MarkMonitor<br>
> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:415-419-9138" value="+14154199138">415-419-9138</a>
(m)<br>
><br>
> Sent from my mobile, please excuse any typos.<br>
><br>
> On May 12, 2014, at 4:58 PM, "McGrady, Paul D."
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:PMcGrady@winston.com">PMcGrady@winston.com</a><mailto:<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:PMcGrady@winston.com">PMcGrady@winston.com</a>>>
wrote:<br>
><br>
> John,<br>
><br>
> Setting aside for a moment the specific example
below, the part I don't completely understand is why
we think that a domain name owner who is using the
domain name for a blatantly illegal purpose without
regard for the law will somehow be inclined to provide
accurate information in their WHOIS records if they
are not allowed to contract for a proxy service.<br>
><br>
> Thanks in advance for your thoughts.<br>
><br>
> Best,<br>
> Paul<br>
><br>
><br>
> Paul D. McGrady Jr.<br>
><br>
> Partner<br>
><br>
> Chair, Trademark, Domain Names and Brand
Enforcement Practice<br>
><br>
> Winston & Strawn LLP<br>
> 35 W. Wacker Drive<br>
> Chicago, IL 60601-9703<br>
><br>
> D: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:%2B1%20%28312%29%20558-5963"
value="+13125585963">+1 (312) 558-5963</a><br>
><br>
> F: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:%2B1%20%28312%29%20558-5700"
value="+13125585700">+1 (312) 558-5700</a><br>
><br>
> Bio<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.winston.com/en/who-we-are/attorneys/mcgrady-paul-d.html"
target="_blank">http://www.winston.com/en/who-we-are/attorneys/mcgrady-paul-d.html</a>>
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href="http://www.winston.com/vcards/996.vcf"
target="_blank">http://www.winston.com/vcards/996.vcf</a>>
| Email<mailto:<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:pmcgrady@winston.com">pmcgrady@winston.com</a>>
| <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://winston.com"
target="_blank">winston.com</a><<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.winston.com"
target="_blank">http://www.winston.com</a>><br>
><br>
> <image001.jpg><br>
><br>
><br>
> From: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org">gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org</a><mailto:<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org">gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org</a>>
[mailto:<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org">gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org</a>]
On Behalf Of John Horton<br>
> Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 2014 5:40 AM<br>
> To: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org">gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org</a><mailto:<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org">gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org</a>><br>
> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Commercial Use -
White Paper<br>
><br>
> Hi all,<br>
><br>
> Following up on the white paper that Libby Baney
just circulated, and as we wrap up our discussion
regarding distinguishing between commercial and
non-commercial use, I thought it might be helpful to
provide a concrete example of a domain name that (I
trust we can all agree) is being used for commercial
purposes. Perhaps we can collectively think through
whether it makes sense for this domain name to be
afforded privacy protection. For simplicity, I am only
using one domain name as an example, but there are
thousands like this in our database alone. I hope that
a concrete example will be helpful to the discussion.<br>
><br>
> Let's take the domain name <a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://medsindia.com"
target="_blank">medsindia.com</a><<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://medsindia.com"
target="_blank">http://medsindia.com</a>>. First,
as you can verify with a Whois query, it is using
proxy/privacy services.<br>
><br>
> Registrant Name: General (c/o Rebel.com<<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://Rebel.com"
target="_blank">http://Rebel.com</a>> Privacy
Service) Registrant Organization: Private Domain
Services Registrant Street: 300-12 York Street
Registrant City: Ottawa Registrant State/Province: ON
Registrant Postal Code: K1N 5S6 Registrant Country: CA
Registrant Phone: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:%2B1.866-497-3235" value="+18664973235">+1.866-497-3235</a><<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="tel:%2B1">tel:%2B1</a>.<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="tel:866-497-3235"
value="+18664973235">866-497-3235</a>><br>
> Registrant Phone Ext:<br>
> Registrant Fax:<br>
> Registrant Fax Ext:<br>
> Registrant Email: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:IVP1JQKYRM3LQED1@rebelprivacy.com">IVP1JQKYRM3LQED1@rebelprivacy.com</a><mailto:<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:IVP1JQKYRM3LQED1@rebelprivacy.com">IVP1JQKYRM3LQED1@rebelprivacy.com</a>><br>
><br>
> How is it being used? It's fairly
straightforward: it sells addictive (controlled
substances) and other prescription drugs without a
valid prescription. But that's not all:<br>
><br>
> * As noted, it sells prescription drugs,
including controlled substances, without requiring a
valid prescription.<br>
> * The drugs are not sold by a pharmacy
licensed or otherwise recognized in the patient's
jurisdiction, as is the standard requirement.<br>
> * The drugs are considered unapproved or
falsified, depending on the regulatory language in the
jurisdiction. Part of the reason is that they are
illegally imported into the customers' jurisdiction
and thus unregulated for safety or authenticity.<br>
> To be clear, this domain name is not being used
for legal commercial purposes in any jurisdiction.
(Despite its claim to be using a licensed pharmacy in
India, not even in India, for reasons I can explain
separately if anyone wants to know.) I choose this
domain name because I do not think its unlawful or
dangerous use can be disputed. I would further argue
that the use of the p/p protection allows the unlawful
actor to continue operating, as I explain below.<br>
><br>
> Being privacy protected, of course, we can't
immediately tell who is operating the website. Can we
get law enforcement or courts in the registrar's
jurisdiction to do anything -- e.g., go to the
registrar and ask or require them to reveal the
identity of the registrant? No. Try to buy a drug such
as Xanax from this website. This Internet pharmacy
will ship anywhere in the world except to Canada --
where its registrar and servers are located. To
protect its ability to sell drugs globally, the
registrant has sacrificed sales to a single country,
and chosen a registrar and servers there, to create a
safe haven. Consequently, Canadian law enforcement
cannot point to a violation of Canadian law: no drugs
are being shipped into Canada -- just everywhere else
around the world. (Which, we can infer, is why this
registrant removed Canada from their shipping
destinations.) And, the reverse is true -- a court
order or law enforcement request from outside of
Canada can simply be ignored by the registrar and
server companies in Canada. Those who have argued that
the best way to deal with p/p use by illegal actors is
simply to get a court order are not accounting for
this quite common scenario.<br>
><br>
> Being able to hide their identity in the Whois
record is also the perfect set up for another reason:
many registrars have said in the past that they only
way that they can (or perhaps, will) take action on a
domain name is if the Whois record is falsified. But
how would we know? It is privacy protected. That
removes the WDPRS as a mechanism for dealing with
abusive behavior.<br>
><br>
> Does this commercial registrant have a legitimate
need for p/p services? I would argue that that is not
the question to be answered. The question is: Does a
consumer, consumer protection firm, government agency,
etc. have the right to know who is operating this
website? I would submit to this group that it is
incumbent upon us to recommend a thoughtful, balanced
policy that prevents this sort of "perfect set up" for
Internet criminals to hide their identity as this one
has. Keep in mind that, as pointed out in the
circulated paper, no such right exists in the offline
world -- rather, consumers have the right to know who
they are dealing with. Ample requirements exist for
business registrations to do business transparently.
There should be no difference in the online world.<br>
><br>
> Finally, recall that the Affirmation of
Commitments (AoC) requires "timely, unrestricted and
public access to accurate and complete WHOIS
information." The AoC goes on to state that WHOIS
policy and its implementation needs to meet "the
legitimate needs of law enforcement and promote
consumer trust." I ask the group, is ICANN fulfilling
its commitment, not only to law enforcement but
especially to promote consumer trust, if it allows
websites like this to continue using p/p services?<br>
><br>
> Thank you for your consideration.<br>
><br>
> John Horton<br>
> President, LegitScript<br>
> [<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://static.legitscript.com/assets/logo-smaller-cdb8a6f307ce2c6172e72257dc6dfc34.png"
target="_blank">https://static.legitscript.com/assets/logo-smaller-cdb8a6f307ce2c6172e72257dc6dfc34.png</a>]<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> Follow LegitScript: LinkedIn<<a
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href="http://www.linkedin.com/company/legitscript-com"
target="_blank">http://www.linkedin.com/company/legitscript-com</a>>
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><br>
> On Mon, May 12, 2014 at 11:40 PM, Libby Baney
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:libby.baney@fwdstrategies.com">libby.baney@fwdstrategies.com</a><mailto:<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:libby.baney@fwdstrategies.com">libby.baney@fwdstrategies.com</a>>>
wrote:<br>
> All --<br>
><br>
> I appreciate the dialogue the group has begun
regarding WHOIS transparency for entities engaged in
commercial activity. With the hope of encouraging
discussion on the merits of the issue, I am pleased to
share the attached white paper: Commercial Use of
Domain Names: An Analysis of Multiple Jurisdictions.<br>
><br>
> As you'll see, the paper addresses the following
question: Should domain name registrants who sell
products or services on their websites should be able
to conceal their identity and location in the domain
name registration? The paper argues that they should
not. Rather, the authors find that requiring domain
name registrants engaged in commercial activity to
provide transparent WHOIS information falls squarely
in line both with ICANN's commitment to Internet users
and existing global public policy to keep businesses
honest and consumers safe. Accordingly, the paper
recommends an approach that balances personal privacy
and consumer protection rights. On the one hand,
domain names used for non-commercial purposes (e.g.,
personal blogs) should, the authors believe, be
permitted to utilize privacy or proxy registration.
This reflects a fundamental right to privacy of domain
name registrants not engaged in commerce. However, the
authors do not believe the same right exists for
registrants of websites engaged in commerce - a
conclusion borne out by our research.<br>
><br>
> It goes without saying that this group is divided
on the issue of requiring WHOIS transparency for sites
engaged in commercial activity. As some in the PPSAI
WG have commented, these issues may be complicated but
they nonetheless merit our full consideration. We hope
the attached white paper stimulates further thinking
and group discussion on the issues.<br>
><br>
> I look forward to continuing the discussion
tomorrow.<br>
><br>
> Libby<br>
><br>
> --<br>
> Libby Baney, JD<br>
> President<br>
> FWD Strategies International<br>
> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.fwdstrategies.com" target="_blank">www.fwdstrategies.com</a><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
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> P: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
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<pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org">Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg</a></pre>
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