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Hi All,<br>
Quick note that the "chat room" discussion on today's call was
especially robust. We had audio problems on the phone bridge, so it
was easier to type than to speak for many of us. The Adobe Connect
transcript follows at the end of Terri's message... <br>
Best,<br>
Kathy<br>
<br>
On 12/2/2014 2:39 PM, Terri Agnew wrote:<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:dee8df307a9046e494a556ecd9582248@PMBX112-W1-CA-1.PEXCH112.ICANN.ORG"
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Dear All,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Apologies for the audio quality on
today’s call. We are still investigating the issue.</span></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><span>Please find the MP3
recording for the Privacy and Proxy Services
Accreditation Issues PDP Working group </span><span>call
held on Tuesday 02 December 2014 at 15:00 UTC. at:<span><br>
</span></span><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://audio.icann.org/gnso/gnso-ppsa-20141202-en.mp3"><span>http://audio.icann.org/gnso/gnso-ppsa-20141202-en.mp3</span></a><span> </span><span></span></p>
</div>
</div>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>On page: </span><span>
</span><span></span></p>
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</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://gnso.icann.org/en/group-activities/calendar#dec"><span>http://gnso.icann.org/en/group-activities/calendar#</span><span>dec</span></a><span></span></p>
</div>
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<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>The recordings and
transcriptions of the calls are posted on the
GNSO Master Calendar page:</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://gnso.icann.org/calendar/"><span>http://gnso.icann.org/calendar/</span></a><span></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span> </span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u><span>Attendees:</span></u><span> </span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Steve Metalitz - IPC</span><span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Graeme Bunton – RrSG</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Frank Michlick – Individual</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Chris Pelling – RrSG<u><span></span></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Justin Macy - BC</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Susan Kawaguchi – BC</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Kristina Rosette – IPC</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Val Sherman – IPC</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Volker Greimann - RrSG</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Theo Geurts - RrSG</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Stephanie Perrin - NCSG</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>James Bladel – RrSG </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Tatiana Khramtsova – RrSG</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Griffin Barnett – IPC</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Darcy Southwell – RrSG</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Alex Deacon – IPC</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Kathy Kleiman – NCSG</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Jim Bikoff – IPC</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Paul McGrady – IPC</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Osvaldo Novoa – ISPCP</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Phil Corwin – BC</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Sarah Wyld – RrSG</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Todd Williams – IPC</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Susan Prosser – RrSG</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Keith Kupferschmid – IPC</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Vicky Scheckler – IPC</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Kiran Malancharuvil – IPC</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>David Heasley - IPC</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Holly Raiche <span>–</span>
ALAC</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Christian Dawson-ISPCP</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FR">Carlton Samuels –
ALAC</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FR">Michele Neylon –
RrSG</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Don Blumenthal – RySG</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>David Cake – NCSG</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Luc Seufer – RrSG</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u><span><span> </span></span></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u><span>Apologies</span></u><u><span> </span></u><u><span>:<span><br>
</span></span></u><span>Dick Leaning – no soi</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Lindsay Hamilton-Reid- RrSG</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span> </span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u><span lang="FR"><span> </span></span></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u><span>ICANN staff:</span></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Mary Wong</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Amy Bivins</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Danielle Andela</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Terri Agnew</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FR"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>** Please let me know if
your name has been left off the list **</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span> </span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Mailing list archives:</span><span><br>
</span><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg/"><span>http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg/</span></a><span></span></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Wiki page:</span></p>
</div>
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</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://community.icann.org/x/9iCfAg"><span>https://community.icann.org/x/9iCfAg</span></a><span></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="apple-style-span"><span> </span></span><span></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Thank you.</span></p>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Kind regards,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FR-BE">Terri Agnew</span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>-------------------------------</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"><span> <b><u>Adobe Connect
chat transcript for Tuesday 02 December
2014:</u></b></span></p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Terri Agnew:Dear all,
welcome to the PPSAI call on the 02 December 2014<span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Stephanie Perrin:Wow, I am
the first one. Mark this on the calendar!</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Theo Geurts:we shall
remember </p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Theo Geurts:good afternoon
all. </p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Chris Pelling:afternopon
all</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Chris Pelling:afternoon *</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Graeme Bunton:Good morning
all</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Bladel:Good morning.</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Bladel:Who is "D"?</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Graeme Bunton:someone is a
little heavy on the breathing</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> D:"D" is Don B. I'll fix
in a minute.</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Bladel:Ah, ok. :)</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Graeme Bunton:Sounds ok to
me</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Sarah Wyld -
Aplus.net:Thanks Terri!</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Kiran Malancharuvil:Its
okay to me </p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Chris Pelling:its breaking
y up here in the uk</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Michele Neylon:I'm hearing
stutter on both lines</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Sarah Wyld -
Aplus.net:James sounds choppy to me as well.</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Holly Raiche:Yes</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Sarah Wyld -
Aplus.net:graeme, sorry.</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Kiran Malancharuvil:You're
fine on adobe connect and bad on the audio bridge</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Bladel:James isn't
speaking. :)</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Chris Pelling:I rang in
and both sound like daleks</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Susan kawaguchi:dialed in
and both are choppy</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Alex Deacon:sounds loud
and clear on the adobe</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Osvaldo Novoa:Hello all</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Michele Neylon:I'm dialled
in nad it's bad</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Michele Neylon:the lady
speaking is fine</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Michele Neylon:not sure
who that is</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Michele Neylon:Mary maybe?</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Chris Pelling:agree with
michele</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Christian Dawson:Agree -
fine on adobe connect and bad on the audio bridge</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Michele Neylon:everyone
else sounds terrible</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Mary Wong:@Michele, that's
Terri with the soothing clear speaking voice.</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Christian Dawson:Michele
is that a value judgment?</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Carlton Samuels:Morning
all</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Michele Neylon:Mary - so
Terri is a woman?</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Michele Neylon:I didn't
know that</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Chris Pelling:don sounds
non existant now</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Michele Neylon:and now we
have silence</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Chris Pelling:yes terry</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Carlton Samuels:Yes, loud
and clear</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Chris Pelling:don is
crackling</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Michele Neylon:Don's line
is bad</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Alex Deacon:don sounds
great on the adobe</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Michele Neylon:Graeme try
please</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Kiran Malancharuvil:Don
needs to call back into the audio bridge</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Carlton Samuels:I'm
hearing Don very clearly!</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Bladel:Graeme is also
breaking up., I think.</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Holly Raiche:The rest of
us are fine - Don's still fuzzy</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Mary Wong:@Graeme, that
seems to be right.</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Kathy:Full House!</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Don Blumenthal:still
working on connection</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Bladel:Graeme is also a
bit choppy.</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Bladel::)</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Carlton Samuels:Hi Terri,
Please record me present and count</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Mary Wong:@Carlton, thank
you - we will.</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Michele Neylon:I'm
connected via both phone and adobe</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Christian Dawson:Just
switched to Adobe only it's much better today</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Terri Agnew:@ Carlton,
will do</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Michele Neylon:switched to
adobe </p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Michele Neylon:audio is
clearer</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Holly Raiche:AGree with
Michele - the audio on adobe is fine - the dial in
is fuzzy</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Chris Pelling:someone now
has an echo</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Terri Agnew:apologies
everyone for the choppy audio on telephone. We are
working on trying to get this to clear up</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Michele Neylon:I've muted
my microphone so it's not me</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> vicky sheckler:apologies -
i need to drop off</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Chris Pelling:I cant hear
anything on adoibe :/</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Chris Pelling:so will
listen to the crackle and make best do</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Terri Agnew:adobe seems to
be the best option at the moment</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Don Blumenthal:I'm back on
line. </p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Graeme Bunton:Great</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Mary Wong:Please note that
the options (still under discussion) have been
placed in square brackets in the current text.</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Volker Greimann:apologies,
previous meeting was running into overtime</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Carlton Samuels:Yes we
have control</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Holly Raiche:We have
control of the screen</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Kathy:We may still be in
our turkey-induced coma (for those who celebrated
Thanksgiving)</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Stephanie Perrin:Graeme
while your technique is excellent, it might be
rash to move on to the next item yet...:-)</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Kathy:No, can't hear Steve</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Kathy:yes</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Chris Pelling:I can hear
steve</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Carlton Samuels:Yes can
hear Steve</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Paul McGrady:Sorry I'm
late.</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Michele Neylon:can't hear
him</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Michele Neylon:oh I can
now</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Chris Pelling:this is very
flakey today</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Chris Pelling:I cant hear
on adobe connect Steve</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Chris Pelling:but I can on
the phjone </p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Chris Pelling:Just because
there is no response, does not show contact issue</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> steve metalitz:Is there
objection to "must" in the first paragraph? </p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Chris Pelling:thus even if
you pay for it, its not to get a guranteed
response</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Holly Raiche:Can't hear
very well</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Kathy:@Steve, yes.</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Chris Pelling:on 1 Steve
it should be stating Electronic </p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Kiran Malancharuvil:+1
Steve</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> David Cake:so Steve, you
are talking about a hard bounce in email, or
equivalent?</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> steve metalitz:old hand</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Kathy:@All, yes being that
"should" should be kept as "should" in the first
sentence</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Bladel 2:Thanks for
clarifying,. Can we get some language inserted in
to the text somewhere so it is clear?</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Chris Pelling:Kathy is
clear</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Holly Raiche:Isn't the
problem if the message is sent - and may be
received, but is not responded to . Aside from a
hard bounce, could a registrar p/p KNOW the email
has or has not been sent</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Mary Wong:All, the WG
agreed previously to NOT use language like "hard "
or "soft" bounces.</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> David Cake:Did we? What
language did we agree to use instead?</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Luc Seufer:twerking was
porposed if memory serves</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Mary Wong:@David, that is
what our notes show. Hence the chairs/staff
suggestion in Cat E when it was first circulated,
about delivery failure.</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Holly Raiche:It is still
hard to hear on a dial out</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Chris Pelling:But not all
servers do that</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Carlton Samuels:There are
standard repsonses for email! Maybe we should
eliminate the ones we don't mean</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Kathy:@Alex, I hate to
ask, but couldyou summarize your comments in the
Chat? </p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Chris Pelling:Not all
servers are setup to rspond like that </p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Kathy:You are breaking up
a bit...</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Philip Corwin:The phone
bridge audio is atrocious. Brittle, crackling,
fading in and out with an intermittent echo.</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Michele Neylon:if the
wording is broad enough to alllow for the
technical realities of some mail servers being
dumb .. </p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Kiran Malancharuvil:Not
technically difficult from MarkMonitor's
perspective</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Kiran Malancharuvil:Agree
with Alex's point</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Michele Neylon:Kiran - how
many mail users do you host?</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Alex Deacon:@don - agree
that should be the focus. </p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Terri Agnew:as a reminder,
please mute microphone and telephone when not
speaking. We are still troubling shooting the
audio issue</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Kiran Malancharuvil:Good
question, can relay back to Matt Serlin who gave
me quick answers rather than detailed analysis. </p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Holly Raiche:Isn't the
suggestion that if the p/p becomes aware that the
message has not been delivered, they MUST use
another method of communication</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Michele Neylon:+1 to James</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Carlton Samuels:@Don: Just
say that - 'when there is an affirmative notice
that an email has not reached the intended
address'</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Michele Neylon:we often
see issues with mail being sent to Hotmail / Gmail
etc.,</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Michele Neylon:and you
often don't get back any useful errors</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Holly Raiche:@ Carlton -
agree with suggestion</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Susan kawaguchi:only
getting every other word that james is saying </p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Carlton Samuels:@Michele:
Then there is no affirmative notice so we do the
next thing after time t; escalate</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Chris Pelling:dropped
phone bridge</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Stephanie Perrin:Agree
with James. Elegantly put.</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Bladel 2:Dang. I even
dropped off the phone bridge to fix audio issue.</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Holly Raiche:@ James -
could you put something in the chat - you were
hard to hear</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Bladel 2::(</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Christian Dawson:It's not
you James it's the bridge in general</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> steve metalitz:@James
what about Carlton's proposal: 'when there is an
affirmative notice that an email has not reached
the intended address'?</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Christian Dawson:By the
way, +1 to your comments, James</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Bladel 2:The simplest
summary: Reliability of detecting delivery
failure breaks down as scale increases.</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> val sherman:I think we are
talking about situations where the Provider is
aware of repeated delivery failures. One other
point: since the Customer is required to provide a
working email by the terms of service, would it
not be in violation of the terms if there is
repeated failure of delivery that the Provider is
aware of? If so, might an additional option for
the Provider be to terminate the service?</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Holly Raiche:What is the
conclusion please</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Holly Raiche:@ Val - I was
thinking along those lines</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Bladel 2:@Steve: that
works, if we can clarify in the text.</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Stephanie Perrin:James
said that costs should follow the benefitting
user.</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Kathy:@Mary, I think this
is this is the time for some clarification</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Kathy:It seems to be
warranted at this point in the discussion...</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Holly Raiche:@ Kathy -
agree - could we clarify please</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Mary Wong:The idea for the
notification is that it is triggered when the
provider "becomes aware".</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Stephanie Perrin:From a
consumer protection standpoint, to avoid
harrassment, there should be some costs accruing
to the party making the allegations of abuse. </p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Kathy:@Mary: that seems
very loose at this point in time</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Kathy:it is not bounded by
time, system response, etc</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Chris Pelling:+1 Stephanie
</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> steve metalitz:@Don, yes,
provider should offer alternative upon request
after specified number of hard bounces. </p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Kristina Rosette:+1 to
Steve</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Bladel 2:It could be
offered as a premium service.</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Susan kawaguchi:If the
allegations of abuse are found to be accurate
would you advocate the registrant then be charged
for the communication </p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Holly Raiche:@ Steve -
isn't he problem that there may not be 'hard'
bounces?</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Graeme Bunton:Lots of
questiosn to addresss in the above</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Graeme Bunton:Lots of
questiosn to addresss in the above\</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> steve metalitz:@Don I was
responding to the question you posed..... </p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Mary Wong:Just for clarity
- are we going back to the "hard bounce" language?</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Luc Seufer:do we have a
definition for it? </p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Stephanie Perrin:If I put
someone who is bugging me into my spam filters, do
you define that as a hard bounce? Innocent (read
naive) question.</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Carlton Samuels:@Don: The
rule should compel a declared form of
communication for the provider. It is the
responsibility of the communicators to keep that
communication line open and available. We should
just say if the response is not fortcoming within
a certain time then next step is the defined
escalation for communication to be effected. That
then becomes the cost of the beneficial user,
this time the requestor.</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Michele Neylon:Stephanie -
your spam filter probably wouldn't bounce </p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Chris Pelling:if the
bridge worked we might</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Susan kawaguchi:can barely
hear anything on audio</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Holly Raiche:@ Stephanie -
agree</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Mary Wong:@Luc, that was
one of the issues when the language was first
discussed, including at the WG F2F in LA.</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Darcy Southwell:The audio
is very hard to follow </p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Luc Seufer:Or the
preferred way of communication of lawyers: sending
20 meg attachements, does this constitute hard
bounce?</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Bladel 2:I'm starting to
think we abandon this call. :(</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Susan kawaguchi:should we
just go to email and forget the call</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Holly Raiche:Actually in
most cases</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Kathy:@Susan: impossible
tracking problem for registrars. how long would it
take until the abuse is proven - and then if it is
appealed?</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Chris Pelling:also as Luc
pointed out</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Chris Pelling:A lot of
mail servers have message limits</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Susan kawaguchi:@Kathy so
why punish the requestor only when most requests
are very targeted to domain names with bad
behavior</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Stephanie Perrin:@Michele,
ok so then the message is received but tucked into
my spam filters. What does the upset sender do
then and is there any reason why the service
provider should pick up the cost of sending by
registered mail.</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Susan kawaguchi:dropping
off call will follow in chat as I cannot
understand anything on audio</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Michele Neylon:Stephanie -
if it doesn't bounce then I don't know about it ..
</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Luc Seufer:@Mary thanks so
we don't</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Terri Agnew:Apologies
everyone, we are working with Tech Support but not
having much luck to clear up audio</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Stephanie Perrin:@Michele
but you will hear from the sender again....at
which point you tell them the message was
received. Go away. Correct?</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Holly Raiche:@ Dave - I
think the issue won't go away until it is clear
what amounts to a p/p provider becoming aware</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Kathy:@Susan, we were
talking earlier (original discussion) about
charging a small/reasonable charge to the
requestor who wants followup. The analogy was the
per-page cost for faxes or copies that law firms
charge their clients. That's a charge my clients
pay regardless of whether they are ultimately in
the right -- or not.</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Kiran Malancharuvil:There
is quality discussion happening in the chat, would
prefer to move this to email</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Holly Raiche:@Don - look
at the chat for discussion</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Michele Neylon:Stephanie -
the email has been sent as far as I'm concerned.
If you're not getting it due to yuour spam filter
I can't know that</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Graeme Bunton:Absolutely,
carry on email</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Michele Neylon:So yeah -
"go away"</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Christian Dawson:We should
also keep in mind that a hard bounce is sometimes
a very temporary issue. As a hoster I have 1.4
million domains under my control. My customers go
over their disk space or don't pay their bills
aoccasionally and hard bounce for an hour, a day,
a week. . They just bounce temporarily in a
nonmalicious, unintentional way.</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Michele Neylon:+1
Christian</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Kathy:@Mary and Terri:
perhaps a special note to the List that the Chat
had a lot of important discussion due to problems
with the bridge?</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Alex Deacon:@christian -
you are describing a "soft bounce" (i.e. one that
may clear up at some point in the future)</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Stephanie Perrin:It would
take only five minutes to read the chat into the
transcript.</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Holly Raiche:Too hard to
hear</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Bladel 2:Thanks, Don and
appreciate everyone making the effort.</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Susan kawaguchi:reading it
won't help if you can't hear </p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Kiran Malancharuvil:We
should adjourn so that we don't miss anything</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Frank Michlick:no problems
hearing via adobe connecgt</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Frank Michlick:-g</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Holly Raiche:Barely</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Christian Dawson:Just goes
to show we definitely need definitions and
explanations.</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Kathy:+1 Christian</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> steve metalitz:@Stephanie,
no it is allocating the cost for failure to give
the provider an e-mail address at which you can be
reached. </p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> val sherman:+1 Michele.
Yes, Stephanie -- Message received but ignored OR
message caught by spam filter is not a delivery
failure. Delivery failure is not the same as
failure to respond. </p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Holly Raiche:I don't think
the issue is cost so much as working through what
is meant by becoming aware - once we have done
that, then we can talk about cost</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Chris Pelling:totally
agree</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing">Holly Raiche:The chat is
working well</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Mary Wong:@Holly, yes that
was the idea behind this language, particularly
following the hard v soft bounce discussion some
time ago.</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Chris Pelling:cant hear
anything</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Kathy:I thought we had
narrowed the "non-response" issues down to
technical ones... </p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Chris Pelling:Is Steve
talking ?</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Stephanie Perrin:Yes Steve
is talking</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Kathy:yes Chris</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Holly Raiche:@ Kathy -
agree - </p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Chris Pelling:ok, well
cant hear him here in :(</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Chris Pelling:Im listening
to adobe connect only now</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Holly Raiche:Go to Val's
earlier comment - </p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Christian Dawson:Steve,
email is not reliable enough for that to be at all
practical.</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Don Blumenthal:Steve is
talking. To summarize, hard bounce = bad address.
P?P registrant should pay</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Mary Wong:Steve is comng
across clearly on the audio bridge, other speakers
not so much. Apologies, all - we are having IT
look into this. We've never had this problem to
Terri's and my knowledge.</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Chris Pelling:ok, sorry,
disagree</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Chris Pelling:for so many
reasons, but the main one is not all servers are
setup to reply with a hard bounce</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Chris Pelling:I can hear
Don aok</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Stephanie Perrin:So we
need a volunteer to rewrite this so that it is
clear, without using the word hard bounce.</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Chris Pelling:But Don we
might not get ANY response so as far as we know it
has gone</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Chris Pelling:perfect</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Kathy:who is talking?</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Chris Pelling:I think
Christina</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Luc Seufer:I think it's
Chrisitian</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Holly Raiche:@ Stepanie -
and Kathy - we need language to agree with wha are
now technical descriptions of the difficulties is
KNOWING if he message has reached its desination</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Chris Pelling:Christian *</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Mary Wong:The idea of
conditioning provider notification upon a provider
actually getting a notice of a bounce was
discussed but rejected including for reasons that
Christian is describing.</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Don Blumenthal:To my
world? Yeah, I can see why ICANN might be seen as
being an alien conspiracy.</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Kathy:@Holly, agree</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Chris Pelling:soft is
temorary where a server will try every 4 hours,
whereas hard bounce is permanent delivery failure</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Kathy:@Christian, I think
we should use the technical terminology -- and
define it very clearly as well.</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> David Cake:That
terminology sounds OK. </p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Kathy:@Don: "timely,
affirmative notice of nondelivery"? </p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> David Cake:We should not
use hard bounce because that is quite specific to
email</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Holly Raiche:I like
Kathy's suggestion</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Chris Pelling:might be
useful for a read : <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bounce_message">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bounce_message</a></p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Stephanie Perrin:How would
one define "permanent Non-delivery"</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Chris Pelling:I cant</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Chris Pelling:cant hear
anyone a</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Chris Pelling:Don I could
hear </p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Don Blumenthal:Timely
affirmative notice of permanent nondelivery?</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Frank Michlick:bounces
aren't always realtime</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Holly Raiche:Thanks Chris
- we may need to go to that language</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Chris Pelling:define
timely</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Frank Michlick:some
include temporary and multiple delivery attemptsxz</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Frank Michlick:-xz</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Chris Pelling:Don = loud
and clear</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Stephanie Perrin:My
question is how does my provider know that
non-delivery is permanent?</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Holly Raiche:Maybe we can
use the list to define things like bounce and
timely</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Luc Seufer:ICANN
definition of timely should be funny</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Carlton Samuels:@David:
I'm trying to make a distinction between what
happens when we know a communication did not reach
its destination and when there is no actionable
evidence. The first instance is addressed by the
language 'when there is an affirmative.....'. With
no actionable evidence of delivery, then we might
have a provision that says what next. My what
next is that there is a time factor that should be
invoked and once that runs out, a definite
response required by the provider. If the
customer is AWOL then compel cancellation. </p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Chris Pelling:Stephanuie,
if your server company set the server up correctly
you SHOULD get a response stating that the message
had a permanent delivery failure</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Kathy:I just can't see it
being a permanent liability for proxy/privacy
providers...</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Chris Pelling:but its down
to the company that set it up</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Luc Seufer:the launch of
the new gTLD program was operated in a timely
manner</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Chris Pelling:cant hear
anything</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Chris Pelling:Luc - its
still going :p</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Chris Pelling:and what are
we up to now, a year ? :p</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Don Blumenthal:Luc,
applicants might argue that "timely" point. :)</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Holly Raiche:@ Mary and
Don - try to capture the language that is being
suggested in the chat</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Chris Pelling:no one
talking ?</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Don Blumenthal:Mary is</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Chris Pelling:ok I can
hear Don not Mary</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Chris Pelling::(</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Kathy:Tx Don - great
leadership under rought circumstances!</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Kathy:Tx All!</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> steve metalitz:thanks Don
</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> Holly Raiche:Tks</p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"> </p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"><b><u><span><span> </span></span></u></b></p>
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