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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">It&#8217;s not really an issue of proof, on either side. &nbsp;This only comes into play once requestor has demonstrated a prima facie case.&nbsp; &nbsp;It&#8217;s an issue of providing specific evidence on which a decision to refuse disclosure
 could be based.&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"> gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org [mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Stephanie Perrin<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, March 27, 2015 6:16 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Revised Reveal Doc<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">This would be very difficult to prove, don't you think?&nbsp; Yes it is much more precise, but it is easier to force the requestor to prove their claim.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; The lengths that ex-spouses and religious groups will go
 to to harrass the folks they are after are not easily anticipated by Registrars' staff.&nbsp;
<br>
Stephanie Perrin<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On 2015-03-27 17:45, Williams, Todd wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">All:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">I wanted to follow-up on the point that I raised below and in our call on Tuesday.&nbsp; To reiterate: I think that III(C)(5) can be more precisely drafted to address the concern that we&#8217;re dealing with &#8211; which, as
 I understand it, is the risk that pretextual complaints may be brought for the purpose of violating at-risk users&#8217; human rights.&nbsp; Assuming that is the risk that we&#8217;re trying to mitigate, what does everybody think of this proposed draft language:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">C.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Disclosure can be reasonably refused for reasons consistent with the general policy stated herein, including but not limited to:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; (5)&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; that the Customer has provided, or the Provider has found, specific evidence demonstrating that the Requestor&#8217;s trademark or copyright complaint is a pretextual means of obtaining
 the Customer&#8217;s contact details for the purpose of contravening the Customer&#8217;s human rights.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Again, I think that more exactly and unambiguously addresses the risk that we&#8217;ve been discussing in the various hypothetical scenarios that Kathy and others have put forward.&nbsp; But I&#8217;m happy to discuss further
 on Tuesday.&nbsp; Thanks as always.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><br>
Todd.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">
<a href="mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org">gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org</a> [<a href="mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org">mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Williams, Todd<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, March 23, 2015 4:20 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Kiran Malancharuvil; Kathy Kleiman; <a href="mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org">
gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org</a>; Metalitz, Steven; Graeme Bunton<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Revised Reveal Doc</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Yes, thank you Kathy for circulating.&nbsp; Two initial quick thoughts that I wanted to circulate to the WG now before the call (though like Kiran, I'd want to reserve comment on other portions as I review):<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:.5in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2">
<![if !supportLists]><span style="font-family:Symbol"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">&middot;<span style="font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]>The more that I&#8217;ve thought about III(C)(5), the more I think it&#8217;s a poor fit for what we&#8217;re trying to address.&nbsp; As I understand it from the hypotheticals that we&#8217;ve discussed, the concern is that complainants with improper motives
 will use pretextual complaints to seek disclosure against vulnerable or otherwise at-risk beneficial users.&nbsp; But III(C)(5) doesn&#8217;t really address pretext or the subjective motives of the complainant at all.&nbsp; Rather, it simply outlines the standard to be used
 in all cases.&nbsp; Perhaps having a higher standard could weed out some pretextual complaints.&nbsp; But not necessarily.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l2 level1 lfo4">
<![if !supportLists]><span style="mso-list:Ignore">1)<span style="font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span><![endif]>We could certainly think of hypotheticals where the complainant may have pretextual or improper motives, but still puts forward a claim that on its face passes the III(C)(5) standard.&nbsp;
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l2 level1 lfo4">
<![if !supportLists]><span style="mso-list:Ignore">2)<span style="font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span><![endif]>On the other side, I&#8217;m sure we could also think of hypotheticals where the complainant has completely pure motives, but still has one or two parts of its trademark or copyright claim that it&#8217;s still trying to pin down (in fact, that
 may be the very reason why it is seeking information on who the beneficial owner is).<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:.5in">I think III(C)(5) as currently drafted allows for disclosure in (1) but not (2) &#8211; which seems backwards to me.&nbsp; In other words, if we&#8217;re trying to fight pretext, let&#8217;s fight pretext.&nbsp; As it is, I think the draft
 already does a good job of that:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo6">
<![if !supportLists]><span style="mso-list:Ignore">1)<span style="font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span><![endif]>I(B)(v) contemplates revoking access for having filed a pretextual complaint.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo6">
<![if !supportLists]><span style="mso-list:Ignore">2)<span style="font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span><![endif]>I(B)(vi) contemplates Providers sharing information about pretextual complaints.&nbsp;
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo6">
<![if !supportLists]><span style="mso-list:Ignore">3)<span style="font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span><![endif]>II(A)(7), II(B)(7), and II(C)(7) all contemplate that complaints will be submitted under penalty of perjury (with all of the deterrence against pretext that goes with that).&nbsp;
<o:p></o:p></p>
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<![if !supportLists]><span style="mso-list:Ignore">4)<span style="font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span><![endif]>The entire Annex outlines possibilities for handling disputes that arise from pretextual complaints.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText" style="text-indent:.5in">If we want to discuss as a WG whether the draft should do more on pretext, or perhaps add some language about pretext to III(C)(2) or III(C)(3), we can.&nbsp; But I think that trying to fit that square peg (pretext
 concerns) into a round hole (the III(C)(5) standard) isn&#8217;t the best way to do it.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<![if !supportLists]><span style="font-family:Symbol"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">&middot;<span style="font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]>I like your edits Kathy to III(D), but can we as a WG agree to remove the brackets from III(D)?&nbsp; I&#8217;m not quite sure why it&#8217;s still bracketed.&nbsp; We&#8217;re already editing it (which seems pointless if it might just go away).&nbsp; And without
 III(D), the entire rest of the document &#8211; which we&#8217;ve now spent weeks trying to get to a place approaching consensus &#8211; is moot.&nbsp;
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<p class="MsoPlainText">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Thanks as always.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><br>
Todd.&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">-----Original Message-----<br>
From: <a href="mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org">gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org</a> [<a href="mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org">mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org</a>] On Behalf Of Kiran Malancharuvil<br>
Sent: Monday, March 23, 2015 2:23 PM<br>
To: Kathy Kleiman; <a href="mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org">gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org</a>; Metalitz, Steven; Graeme Bunton<br>
Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Revised Reveal Doc<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Hi Kathy,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Thanks for forwarding this to the group, and special thanks for forwarding with enough time to review before the call!&nbsp;
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">We can certainly discuss in more depth on the call tomorrow, but I am not a fan of the changes in Section II.&nbsp; I'm concerned about the level of minutiae in the language, and I'm wondering how and why that level of micromanagement will
 be helpful/probative information to the Service Provider.&nbsp; In very large companies, the trademark owner/president/VP/partner, etc. isn't actually involved directly in the enforcement activity.&nbsp; It should be enough to demonstrate agency, as the previous language
 did.&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Perhaps I will have more later, but I wanted to float that to the group before the call.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Thanks,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Kiran<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Kiran Malancharuvil<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Policy Counselor<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">MarkMonitor<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">415.222.8318 (t)<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">415.419.9138 (m)<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><a href="http://www.markmonitor.com"><span style="color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">www.markmonitor.com</span></a>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">From: <a href="mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org">
gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org</a> [<a href="mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org">mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org</a>] On Behalf Of Kathy Kleiman<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Sent: Sunday, March 22, 2015 11:19 AM<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">To: <a href="mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org">gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org</a>; Metalitz, Steven; Graeme Bunton<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Subject: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Revised Reveal Doc<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Hi All,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Steve and I talked on Friday, and he asked me to circulate a Revised Reveal document -- which is attached.&nbsp; This document has three types of changes based on our discussion last Tuesday and subsequent research:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">1. To the title (reset pending further discussion) 2. To Section II, the Request Templates to clarify the requester and his/her direct knowledge of the alleged infringement and legal authority to represent the Requester, and 3. Annex
 (reset to original pending discussion with drafters over the narrow goals and intents of this section)<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">All other edits remain - to continue our excellent discussion of high standards for disclosure, human rights issues, etc. There is also much to discuss regarding follow-up processes (after the Request) including<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">a) when are appeals allowed and for whom, and b) how does a Provider challenge an alleged &quot;wrongful disclosure&quot; of its Customer's information?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Best and have a good rest of weekend,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Kathy<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg mailing list<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><a href="mailto:Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org"><span style="color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org</span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><a href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg"><span style="color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg</span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
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<br>
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<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href="mailto:Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org">Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
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