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I have been mulling over the wording that Todd proposed on Friday.
I think it should be evaluated alongside the standard we were
evaluating (a "clear and convincing") as a reason for disclosure --
and I would like to hear what the Providers think. But I think it
advances our discussion... tx Todd! <br>
<br>
Kathy<br>
<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 3/27/2015 5:45 PM, Williams, Todd
wrote:<br>
</div>
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<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">All:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">I wanted to
follow-up on the point that I raised below and in our call
on Tuesday. To reiterate: I think that III(C)(5) can be
more precisely drafted to address the concern that we’re
dealing with – which, as I understand it, is the risk that
pretextual complaints may be brought for the purpose of
violating at-risk users’ human rights. Assuming that is the
risk that we’re trying to mitigate, what does everybody
think of this proposed draft language:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">C.
Disclosure can be reasonably refused for reasons consistent
with the general policy stated herein, including but not
limited to:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">
(5) that the Customer has provided, or the Provider
has found, specific evidence demonstrating that the
Requestor’s trademark or copyright complaint is a pretextual
means of obtaining the Customer’s contact details for the
purpose of contravening the Customer’s human rights.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Again, I think
that more exactly and unambiguously addresses the risk that
we’ve been discussing in the various hypothetical scenarios
that Kathy and others have put forward. But I’m happy to
discuss further on Tuesday. Thanks as always.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><br>
Todd.</span><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org">gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org</a>
[<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org">mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Williams, Todd<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, March 23, 2015 4:20 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Kiran Malancharuvil; Kathy Kleiman;
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org">gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org</a>; Metalitz, Steven; Graeme
Bunton<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Revised Reveal
Doc<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Yes, thank you Kathy for circulating.
Two initial quick thoughts that I wanted to circulate to the
WG now before the call (though like Kiran, I'd want to reserve
comment on other portions as I review):<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"
style="margin-left:.5in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1
lfo2">
<!--[if !supportLists]--><span style="font-family:Symbol"><span
style="mso-list:Ignore">·<span style="font:7.0pt
"Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><!--[endif]-->The more that I’ve
thought about III(C)(5), the more I think it’s a poor fit for
what we’re trying to address. As I understand it from the
hypotheticals that we’ve discussed, the concern is that
complainants with improper motives will use pretextual
complaints to seek disclosure against vulnerable or otherwise
at-risk beneficial users. But III(C)(5) doesn’t really
address pretext or the subjective motives of the complainant
at all. Rather, it simply outlines the standard to be used in
all cases. Perhaps having a higher standard could weed out
some pretextual complaints. But not necessarily.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"
style="margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l2 level1
lfo4">
<!--[if !supportLists]--><span style="mso-list:Ignore">1)<span
style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span><!--[endif]-->We could certainly think of
hypotheticals where the complainant may have pretextual or
improper motives, but still puts forward a claim that on its
face passes the III(C)(5) standard.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"
style="margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l2 level1
lfo4">
<!--[if !supportLists]--><span style="mso-list:Ignore">2)<span
style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span><!--[endif]-->On the other side, I’m sure we
could also think of hypotheticals where the complainant has
completely pure motives, but still has one or two parts of its
trademark or copyright claim that it’s still trying to pin
down (in fact, that may be the very reason why it is seeking
information on who the beneficial owner is).<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:.5in">I think
III(C)(5) as currently drafted allows for disclosure in (1)
but not (2) – which seems backwards to me. In other words, if
we’re trying to fight pretext, let’s fight pretext. As it is,
I think the draft already does a good job of that:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"
style="margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1
lfo6">
<!--[if !supportLists]--><span style="mso-list:Ignore">1)<span
style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span><!--[endif]-->I(B)(v) contemplates revoking
access for having filed a pretextual complaint.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"
style="margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1
lfo6">
<!--[if !supportLists]--><span style="mso-list:Ignore">2)<span
style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span><!--[endif]-->I(B)(vi) contemplates Providers
sharing information about pretextual complaints.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"
style="margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1
lfo6">
<!--[if !supportLists]--><span style="mso-list:Ignore">3)<span
style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span><!--[endif]-->II(A)(7), II(B)(7), and II(C)(7)
all contemplate that complaints will be submitted under
penalty of perjury (with all of the deterrence against pretext
that goes with that).
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"
style="margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1
lfo6">
<!--[if !supportLists]--><span style="mso-list:Ignore">4)<span
style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span><!--[endif]-->The entire Annex outlines
possibilities for handling disputes that arise from pretextual
complaints.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText" style="text-indent:.5in">If we want to
discuss as a WG whether the draft should do more on pretext,
or perhaps add some language about pretext to III(C)(2) or
III(C)(3), we can. But I think that trying to fit that square
peg (pretext concerns) into a round hole (the III(C)(5)
standard) isn’t the best way to do it.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"
style="margin-left:.5in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1
lfo2">
<!--[if !supportLists]--><span style="font-family:Symbol"><span
style="mso-list:Ignore">·<span style="font:7.0pt
"Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><!--[endif]-->I like your edits Kathy
to III(D), but can we as a WG agree to remove the brackets
from III(D)? I’m not quite sure why it’s still bracketed.
We’re already editing it (which seems pointless if it might
just go away). And without III(D), the entire rest of the
document – which we’ve now spent weeks trying to get to a
place approaching consensus – is moot.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Thanks as always.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><br>
Todd. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">-----Original Message-----<br>
From: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org">gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org</a>
[<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org">mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org</a>] On Behalf Of
Kiran Malancharuvil<br>
Sent: Monday, March 23, 2015 2:23 PM<br>
To: Kathy Kleiman; <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org">gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org</a>; Metalitz,
Steven; Graeme Bunton<br>
Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Revised Reveal Doc<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Hi Kathy,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Thanks for forwarding this to the group,
and special thanks for forwarding with enough time to review
before the call!
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">We can certainly discuss in more depth
on the call tomorrow, but I am not a fan of the changes in
Section II. I'm concerned about the level of minutiae in the
language, and I'm wondering how and why that level of
micromanagement will be helpful/probative information to the
Service Provider. In very large companies, the trademark
owner/president/VP/partner, etc. isn't actually involved
directly in the enforcement activity. It should be enough to
demonstrate agency, as the previous language did. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Perhaps I will have more later, but I
wanted to float that to the group before the call.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Thanks,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Kiran<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Kiran Malancharuvil<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Policy Counselor<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">MarkMonitor<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">415.222.8318 (t)<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">415.419.9138 (m)<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.markmonitor.com"><span
style="color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">www.markmonitor.com</span></a>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">From:
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org">gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org</a>
[<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org">mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org</a>] On Behalf Of
Kathy Kleiman<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Sent: Sunday, March 22, 2015 11:19 AM<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">To: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org">gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org</a>;
Metalitz, Steven; Graeme Bunton<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Subject: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Revised
Reveal Doc<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Hi All,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Steve and I talked on Friday, and he
asked me to circulate a Revised Reveal document -- which is
attached. This document has three types of changes based on
our discussion last Tuesday and subsequent research:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">1. To the title (reset pending further
discussion) 2. To Section II, the Request Templates to clarify
the requester and his/her direct knowledge of the alleged
infringement and legal authority to represent the Requester,
and 3. Annex (reset to original pending discussion with
drafters over the narrow goals and intents of this section)<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">All other edits remain - to continue our
excellent discussion of high standards for disclosure, human
rights issues, etc. There is also much to discuss regarding
follow-up processes (after the Request) including<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">a) when are appeals allowed and for
whom, and b) how does a Provider challenge an alleged
"wrongful disclosure" of its Customer's information?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Best and have a good rest of weekend,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Kathy<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg mailing list<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoPlainText"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg"><span
style="color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg</span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
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