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Hi Todd, <br>
<br>
not having discussed this with anyone else, I'd feel more comforable
with language along the lines of:<br>
<br>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">“that the Customer
has provided, or the Provider has found,
</span><span style="color:#44546A">specific</span><span
style="color:red"> information, facts and/or circumstances
indicating
</span><span style="color:#1F497D">that the Requestor’s trademark
or copyright complaint is a pretextual means of obtaining the
Customer’s contact details <font color="#ff0000">mainly</font></span><span
style="color:red"> </span><span style="color:#1F497D">for the
purpose of contravening the Customer’s privacy</span><span
style="color:red">.</span><span style="color:#44546A">”</span><span
style="color:red"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<span style="color:red"><o:p></o:p></span><br>
Solely is too strong, and needs to be toned down as even a partial
connection to a potential violation would otherwise close this door.<br>
I removed human rights as this is mainly about privacy. <br>
Showing was also toned down to indicating. The provider is not a
court, he cannot make legal determinations, but he can accept
indications.<br>
Finally, information was added to facts and circumstances, as again,
the provider cannot make factual decisions in every case and should
be able to rely on information.<br>
<br>
VG<br>
VG<br>
<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Am 02.04.2015 um 18:15 schrieb
Williams, Todd:<br>
</div>
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<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Following on
our call on Tuesday, I’ve tried to incorporate the changes
that others suggested to the language for III(C)(5) that I
had proposed last week. New language below (changes in
</span><span style="color:red">red</span><span
style="color:#1F497D">). Let me know if I didn’t capture
any of what we discussed:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">“that the
Customer has provided, or the Provider has found,
</span><span style="color:#44546A">specific</span><span
style="color:red"> facts and circumstances showing
</span><span style="color:#1F497D">that the Requestor’s
trademark or copyright complaint is a pretextual means of
obtaining the Customer’s contact details
</span><span style="color:red">solely </span><span
style="color:#1F497D">for the purpose of contravening the
Customer’s human rights
</span><span style="color:red">(e.g., freedom of expression).</span><span
style="color:#44546A">”</span><span style="color:red"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:red"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Also, just to
reiterate what I mentioned on the call: yes, I did intend
this new language in III(C)(5) to replace the old language
in III(C)(5) (on the “slam dunk” standard) and the previous
draft appendix on human rights. For the reasons that I
mentioned on the call and below, I think that this language
</span><span style="color:#1F497D">more exactly and
unambiguously addresses</span><span style="color:#1F497D">
the concerns that we’ve been discussing, without otherwise
disrupting the balance that the draft proposal has attempted
to strike.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Todd. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span
style="color:windowtext"> Kathy Kleiman
[<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:kathy@kathykleiman.com">mailto:kathy@kathykleiman.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, March 30, 2015 1:06 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Williams, Todd; Kiran Malancharuvil;
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org">gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org</a>; Metalitz, Steven; Graeme
Bunton<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Revised Reveal
Doc<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">I have been
mulling over the wording that Todd proposed on Friday. I
think it should be evaluated alongside the standard we were
evaluating (a "clear and convincing") as a reason for
disclosure -- and I would like to hear what the Providers
think. But I think it advances our discussion... tx Todd!
<br>
<br>
Kathy<br>
<br>
<span style="font-size:12.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On 3/27/2015 5:45 PM, Williams, Todd
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">All:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">I wanted to
follow-up on the point that I raised below and in our call
on Tuesday. To reiterate: I think that III(C)(5) can be
more precisely drafted to address the concern that we’re
dealing with – which, as I understand it, is the risk that
pretextual complaints may be brought for the purpose of
violating at-risk users’ human rights. Assuming that is
the risk that we’re trying to mitigate, what does
everybody think of this proposed draft language:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">C.
Disclosure can be reasonably refused for reasons
consistent with the general policy stated herein,
including but not limited to:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">
(5) that the Customer has provided, or the
Provider has found, specific evidence demonstrating that
the Requestor’s trademark or copyright complaint is a
pretextual means of obtaining the Customer’s contact
details for the purpose of contravening the Customer’s
human rights.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Again, I
think that more exactly and unambiguously addresses the
risk that we’ve been discussing in the various
hypothetical scenarios that Kathy and others have put
forward. But I’m happy to discuss further on Tuesday.
Thanks as always.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><br>
Todd.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif">
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org">gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org</a>
[<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org">mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Williams, Todd<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, March 23, 2015 4:20 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Kiran Malancharuvil; Kathy Kleiman; <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org">
gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org</a>; Metalitz, Steven;
Graeme Bunton<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Revised Reveal
Doc</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Yes, thank you Kathy for circulating.
Two initial quick thoughts that I wanted to circulate to the
WG now before the call (though like Kiran, I'd want to
reserve comment on other portions as I review):<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"
style="margin-left:.5in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0
level1 lfo2">
<!--[if !supportLists]--><span style="font-family:Symbol"><span
style="mso-list:Ignore">·<span style="font:7.0pt
"Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><!--[endif]-->The more that I’ve
thought about III(C)(5), the more I think it’s a poor fit
for what we’re trying to address. As I understand it from
the hypotheticals that we’ve discussed, the concern is that
complainants with improper motives will use pretextual
complaints to seek disclosure against vulnerable or
otherwise at-risk beneficial users. But III(C)(5) doesn’t
really address pretext or the subjective motives of the
complainant at all. Rather, it simply outlines the standard
to be used in all cases. Perhaps having a higher standard
could weed out some pretextual complaints. But not
necessarily.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"
style="margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l2
level1 lfo4">
<!--[if !supportLists]--><span style="mso-list:Ignore">1)<span
style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span><!--[endif]-->We could certainly think of
hypotheticals where the complainant may have pretextual or
improper motives, but still puts forward a claim that on its
face passes the III(C)(5) standard.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"
style="margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l2
level1 lfo4">
<!--[if !supportLists]--><span style="mso-list:Ignore">2)<span
style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span><!--[endif]-->On the other side, I’m sure we
could also think of hypotheticals where the complainant has
completely pure motives, but still has one or two parts of
its trademark or copyright claim that it’s still trying to
pin down (in fact, that may be the very reason why it is
seeking information on who the beneficial owner is).<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:.5in">I think
III(C)(5) as currently drafted allows for disclosure in (1)
but not (2) – which seems backwards to me. In other words,
if we’re trying to fight pretext, let’s fight pretext. As
it is, I think the draft already does a good job of that:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"
style="margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1
level1 lfo6">
<!--[if !supportLists]--><span style="mso-list:Ignore">1)<span
style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span><!--[endif]-->I(B)(v) contemplates revoking
access for having filed a pretextual complaint.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"
style="margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1
level1 lfo6">
<!--[if !supportLists]--><span style="mso-list:Ignore">2)<span
style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span><!--[endif]-->I(B)(vi) contemplates
Providers sharing information about pretextual complaints.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"
style="margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1
level1 lfo6">
<!--[if !supportLists]--><span style="mso-list:Ignore">3)<span
style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span><!--[endif]-->II(A)(7), II(B)(7), and
II(C)(7) all contemplate that complaints will be submitted
under penalty of perjury (with all of the deterrence against
pretext that goes with that).
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"
style="margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1
level1 lfo6">
<!--[if !supportLists]--><span style="mso-list:Ignore">4)<span
style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span><!--[endif]-->The entire Annex outlines
possibilities for handling disputes that arise from
pretextual complaints.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText" style="text-indent:.5in">If we want to
discuss as a WG whether the draft should do more on pretext,
or perhaps add some language about pretext to III(C)(2) or
III(C)(3), we can. But I think that trying to fit that
square peg (pretext concerns) into a round hole (the
III(C)(5) standard) isn’t the best way to do it.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"
style="margin-left:.5in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0
level1 lfo2">
<!--[if !supportLists]--><span style="font-family:Symbol"><span
style="mso-list:Ignore">·<span style="font:7.0pt
"Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><!--[endif]-->I like your edits
Kathy to III(D), but can we as a WG agree to remove the
brackets from III(D)? I’m not quite sure why it’s still
bracketed. We’re already editing it (which seems pointless
if it might just go away). And without III(D), the entire
rest of the document – which we’ve now spent weeks trying to
get to a place approaching consensus – is moot.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Thanks as always.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><br>
Todd. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">-----Original Message-----<br>
From: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org">gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org</a>
[<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org">mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org</a>]
On Behalf Of Kiran Malancharuvil<br>
Sent: Monday, March 23, 2015 2:23 PM<br>
To: Kathy Kleiman; <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org">gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org</a>;
Metalitz, Steven; Graeme Bunton<br>
Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Revised Reveal Doc<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Hi Kathy,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Thanks for forwarding this to the
group, and special thanks for forwarding with enough time to
review before the call!
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">We can certainly discuss in more depth
on the call tomorrow, but I am not a fan of the changes in
Section II. I'm concerned about the level of minutiae in
the language, and I'm wondering how and why that level of
micromanagement will be helpful/probative information to the
Service Provider. In very large companies, the trademark
owner/president/VP/partner, etc. isn't actually involved
directly in the enforcement activity. It should be enough
to demonstrate agency, as the previous language did. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Perhaps I will have more later, but I
wanted to float that to the group before the call.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Thanks,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Kiran<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Kiran Malancharuvil<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Policy Counselor<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">MarkMonitor<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">415.222.8318 (t)<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">415.419.9138 (m)<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.markmonitor.com"><span
style="color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">www.markmonitor.com</span></a>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">From: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org">
gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org</a> [<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org">mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org</a>]
On Behalf Of Kathy Kleiman<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Sent: Sunday, March 22, 2015 11:19 AM<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">To: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org">gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org</a>;
Metalitz, Steven; Graeme Bunton<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Subject: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Revised
Reveal Doc<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Hi All,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Steve and I talked on Friday, and he
asked me to circulate a Revised Reveal document -- which is
attached. This document has three types of changes based on
our discussion last Tuesday and subsequent research:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">1. To the title (reset pending further
discussion) 2. To Section II, the Request Templates to
clarify the requester and his/her direct knowledge of the
alleged infringement and legal authority to represent the
Requester, and 3. Annex (reset to original pending
discussion with drafters over the narrow goals and intents
of this section)<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">All other edits remain - to continue
our excellent discussion of high standards for disclosure,
human rights issues, etc. There is also much to discuss
regarding follow-up processes (after the Request) including<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">a) when are appeals allowed and for
whom, and b) how does a Provider challenge an alleged
"wrongful disclosure" of its Customer's information?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Best and have a good rest of weekend,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Kathy<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg mailing list<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org"><span
style="color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org</span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg"><span
style="color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg</span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New
Roman",serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<br>
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<pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
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</blockquote>
<br>
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