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Dear All, </div>
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<p style="background-color: white;"><font size="3"><span style="color: black; font-size: 14px; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Please find the MP3 recording for the Privacy and Proxy Services Accreditation Issues PDP Working group call held on </span><font face="Calibri,sans-serif">Tuesday 29
September 2015 at </font><span style="color: black; font-size: 14px; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">14:00 UTC at:</span></font></p>
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<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 14px;"><a href="http://mailer.samanage.com/wf/click?upn=NrFWbrBstcrPWP369qgbqlXiSKeL20xnUXzI03ZqpssMLWNzUl8HL92-2BLSoF8pUuiQdRIZ1eSrL7D51E7yC-2B4A-3D-3D_ExQpjP5gt1cFzAzN52twqTBV3K8BwR6GGpVa2x6T1sg8JgqSY4cfHGgpC-2F6btNvPSQ3YkDUgqog-2FbkF37-2BMajytvgnUMIVE0Tt49pYZoqVchaGh4UqHez2GxQx5cIB2MIwyhKiD4RKxVfFbpVuy1HnXp77QN-2BFBoBvNSX-2FGtcUfNQJ0zWX2Q2uCVRCL3x9CrIkwkCJvnWwS5WtffhwMUKc3Qr4BrGjm2UphPN4YPLE9Z-2BE21m-2FbEItFgr6Q-2FlnNnDNFjhjOQWY2g4fd0XcsPTcW5-2FFKJY3jEaspQmfguo4tbXH648r2YWPKTOHMdRoE2QwIMwiRMjBjx9HTiHTlCKNlUmVABzcV8doHmcrXJfJAW6vkTTm5kVJLCI-2B6A1Il4sDT8u8oEK9I6n6bJOeCFvL1tI4ueRAHoXHzyDG-2BEqLY-2BY-2FVAQ2yjrilQO2vRXK8oREqQv6OzxSDRXW29Ge0bzd2nrMCsfkMeuxaoilXvntY9Ne7-2FesrJWzF0tjsvYQTu" style="line-height: 19px;">http://audio.icann.org/gnso/gnso-ppsa-29sep15-en.mp3</a><span style="line-height: 19px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"> </span></div>
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<p class="MsoNoSpacing" style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><font size="3"><span style="color: black; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">On page</span><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">: </span><span style="color: black; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing" style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><font size="3"><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><a href="http://gnso.icann.org/en/group-activities/calendar#aug"></a><a href="http://gnso.icann.org/en/group-activities/calendar#sep">http://gnso.icann.org/en/group-activities/calendar#s</a><a href="http://gnso.icann.org/en/group-activities/calendar#sep">ep</a></span><span style="color: black; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing" style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><font size="3"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"> </span><span style="color: black; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing" style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><font size="3"><span style="color: black; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">The recordings and transcriptions of the calls are posted on the GNSO Master Calendar page</span><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">:</span><span style="color: black; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing" style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><font size="3"><a href="http://gnso.icann.org/calendar/"><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">http://gnso.icann.org/calendar/</span></a><span style="color: black; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNoSpacing"><span style="color: black; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><font size="3">Stephanie Perrin NCSG</font></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: black; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><font size="3">Frank Michlick - Individual</font></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNoSpacing"><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><font size="3">Steve Metalitz – IPC</font></span></p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><font size="3">Sarah Wyld – RrSG</font></span></p>
<p class="MsoNoSpacing"><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><font size="3">Darcy Southwell – RrSG</font></span></p>
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<div style="font-size: 14px; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">David Hughes - IPC</div>
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<div>James Gannon - NCUC</div>
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<div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); font-size: medium;">Paul McGrady - IPC</span></div>
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Susan Prosser- RrSG</div>
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Alex Deacon - IPC</div>
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Luc Seufer - RrSG</div>
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<span style="background-color: rgb(254, 253, 253); font-size: medium;">Osvaldo Novoa – ISPCP</span></div>
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<div><span style="font-size: 13px; font-family: Helvetica;">Christian Dawson - ISPCP</span></div>
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<span style="background-color: white;">Terri Stumme </span><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); background-color: white;">-</span><span style="background-color: white;"> BC</span></div>
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<span style="font-size: medium;">Griffin Barnett - IPC</span></div>
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<span style="font-size: medium;">Susan Kawaguchi - BC</span></div>
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<div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Don Blumenthal-RySG</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Roger Carney-RrSG</div>
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<span style="font-size: medium;">James Bladel - RrSG</span></div>
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<p class="MsoNoSpacing"><font size="3"><u><span style="color: black; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">ICANN staff:</span></u></font></p>
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<span style="color: black; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><font size="3">** Please let me know if your name has been left off the list **<o:p></o:p></font></span></p>
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<font size="3"><span style="color: black; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Mailing list archives:</span><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><br>
</span><a href="http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg/"><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg/</span></a><span style="color: black; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<font size="3"><a href="https://community.icann.org/x/9iCfAg"><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">https://community.icann.org/x/9iCfAg</span></a><span style="color: black; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<span style="color: black; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><font size="3">Thank you.<o:p></o:p></font></span></p>
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<font size="3"><span style="color: black; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Kind regards,</span><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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Gisella</p>
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<p class="MsoNoSpacing" style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><font><span style="color: black;"><font face="Calibri,sans-serif" style="font-size: 14px;"> </font><b><u><font face="Calibri" size="3">Adobe Connect chat transcript for Tuesday 29</font></u></b></span><b><u><font face="Calibri" size="3"> September
2015</font></u></b></font><span style="color: black;"><font face="Calibri" size="3"><o:p></o:p></font></span></p>
<div> Gisella Gruber:Welcome to the PPSAI WG call on Tuesday 29 September 2015 at 14:00 UTC</div>
<div> Chris Pelling:afternoon all</div>
<div> Chris Pelling:Yes graeme</div>
<div> Chris Pelling:Gisella I must say that is a very nice accent</div>
<div> Chris Pelling:aha my coffee</div>
<div> Val S:hello all</div>
<div> Osvaldo Novoa:Hello all</div>
<div> Holly Raiche:So Graeme - another cup of tea- so very British/Oz</div>
<div> Frank Michlick:I don't drink coffee. Tea FTW</div>
<div> Graeme Bunton:I only drink coffee at ICANN meetings</div>
<div> Graeme Bunton:mostly because the tea at ICANN meetings is terrible</div>
<div> Holly Raiche:And the coffee is not that crash hot there - but maybe in Dublin...</div>
<div> Graeme Bunton:you can never use a caraffe for hot water after it's been used for coffee</div>
<div> Carlton Samuels:Morning all</div>
<div> Holly Raiche:Have you thought that is what is served as coffee!</div>
<div> Holly Raiche:Evening Carlton</div>
<div> Carlton Samuels:I'm hearing a lot of ...ok gone</div>
<div> Paul McGrady:I'm not sure my name was called, but I am here (at least for the first 30 minutes or so).</div>
<div> Kathy K:echoes</div>
<div> Holly Raiche:Graeme - you're souding very faint - closer to the mic please</div>
<div> Michele Neylon:sorry - was in another meeting</div>
<div> Michele Neylon:here now </div>
<div> Carlton Samuels:Better</div>
<div> Gisella Gruber:Luc Seufer and Stephanie Perrin have joined the call</div>
<div> Gisella Gruber:Marika Konings is on the call </div>
<div> Gisella Gruber:Susan Prosser has joined the call</div>
<div> Gisella Gruber:Griffin Barnett has joined the call</div>
<div> Sara Bockey:It doesn't reflect his request for indemnification of registrars</div>
<div> Stephanie Perrin:Graeme you are sounding very faint</div>
<div> Mary Wong:@Sara, see notes under A(6)?</div>
<div> Mary Wong:Clarification - the redline you see is the SAME document as was discussed on 14 Sept (the only new textual changes are the ones noted under Section III in the right hand side notes pod)</div>
<div> Sara Bockey:thank you for clarifying Mary</div>
<div> Mary Wong:Staff did not "accept" the changes circulated on 14 Sept as much of these remain open for discussion.</div>
<div> Darcy Southwell:+1 for James Gannon</div>
<div> Graeme Bunton:weird</div>
<div> Sara Bockey:+1 for James Gannon</div>
<div> Graeme Bunton:switching headsets</div>
<div> Holly Raiche:Graeme - we can't hear you</div>
<div> Graeme Bunton:steve, if you will</div>
<div> Graeme Bunton:or todd...</div>
<div> Chris Pelling:totaqlly disagree</div>
<div> Graeme Bunton:can't hear for a moment, Steve</div>
<div> Stephanie Perrin:Totally disagree</div>
<div> Chris Pelling:its the requestor that is creating the paperwork</div>
<div> Sara Bockey:+1 Chris Pelling</div>
<div> Val S:But the reason for that paperwork is that there is a contract bw the provider and their customer</div>
<div> Holly Raiche:Agree with Stephanie and Chris</div>
<div> James Gannon:Its the requestor that is asking for a service to be performed for them</div>
<div> Frank Michlick:+1</div>
<div> Sara Bockey:+1 James Gannon</div>
<div> Carlton Samuels:I disagree. It is the requester that pays</div>
<div> Sara Bockey:+1 Kathy K</div>
<div> Chris Pelling:Sorry Val, I dont get you ?</div>
<div> Carlton Samuels:@Kathy +1</div>
<div> Chris Pelling:essentially ANY costs outside of the contract is the requestor requesting it</div>
<div> Kathy K:Perhaps there is a way to define "nominal cost" rather than deleting it.</div>
<div> Chris Pelling:not the fault of the person who is using the service </div>
<div> Holly Raiche:Up to the P/P provider - maybe Grame can comment?</div>
<div> Chris Pelling:surely it is up to the provider to determin that</div>
<div> Val S:The requestor is seeking information that would be available but for the service the provider offers to its customers</div>
<div> Carlton Samuels:Who ecides what is nominal? The P/P provider</div>
<div> Sara Bockey:I agree with Holly...it should be up the the Provider</div>
<div> James Gannon:I;'ll pass</div>
<div> Todd Williams:+1 Val</div>
<div> Kathy K:If it is defined as "nominal" and "cost recovery" there are limits on what can be charged. </div>
<div> Graeme Bunton:Sorry, still trying to get a headset to play nice</div>
<div> Kathy K:It's not a profit center</div>
<div> Stephanie Perrin:lost you</div>
<div> Stephanie Perrin:lost you</div>
<div> Holly Raiche:I think Cost recovery is a good term - also agree with Michele</div>
<div> steve metalitz:@Michele you can levy a fee on clients but not on non clients. </div>
<div> Luc Seufer:by asking the providers to act, you are asking to be provided with a service</div>
<div> Sara Bockey:+1 Michele and Luc</div>
<div> Carlton Samuels:@Michele +1. Makes sense that the provider has the right/ability to levy fees</div>
<div> Frank Michlick:@Steve: If non-clients ask me to work for them they become a client and get invoiced.</div>
<div> Chris Pelling:+1 to the speaker :)</div>
<div> Luc Seufer:just like parties asking for bulk whois access</div>
<div> Luc Seufer:under the RAA</div>
<div> Frank Michlick:If you would charge the domain owner (without their doing) then it would be easy to drive up charges for the domainer owner by a maliciuous inquirer.</div>
<div> James Gannon:Its split, under x number of hours its a flat fee over a number of hours its a per hour chrage</div>
<div> Alex Deacon:ok - sorry</div>
<div> Holly Raiche:Agree with Kathy</div>
<div> Sara Bockey:+1 Kathy's suggestion</div>
<div> Val S:+1 paul</div>
<div> Holly Raiche:Not standardised - it will depend on each P/P and indeed, on each request</div>
<div> Alex Deacon:Still no mic - apologies. The comment I wanted to make is that I agree service providers shold have the flexibility to run their biz as they feel fit....</div>
<div> Alex Deacon:...but is it appropriate for an ICANN agreement to mandate/suggest it? </div>
<div> Michele Neylon:Alex - probably not</div>
<div> James Gannon:Graeme back and open mic =</div>
<div> Luc Seufer:Or we could agree to charge a fee equal to one hour of the time of the complainant representative.</div>
<div> Holly Raiche:@ Alex - too hard for ICANN I would guess. It should be up to each P/P own systems - but also agree with Steve - maybe an appeal to ICANN?</div>
<div> Graeme Bunton:Well, i can hear now, so that's something.</div>
<div> Rudi Vansnick:if ICANN would mandate/suggest a fee for this services what about all other services ?</div>
<div> Holly Raiche:@ Rudi - exactly. Heaven help us if ICANN gets into that business!</div>
<div> Kathy K:It's a valid concern</div>
<div> Holly Raiche:@ Kathy - agree</div>
<div> Kathy K:Can Mary pleasee revise the comment to this section (in the doc) to reflect today's discussion?</div>
<div> James Gannon:Irish fee 20.95 per hour of search and retieval.</div>
<div> Holly Raiche:@ James G - fine - but will tha work globally/for all size P/P providers?</div>
<div> James Gannon:No was just a refernce point from Micheles point</div>
<div> Mary Wong:No textual changes, Steve</div>
<div> Holly Raiche:@ James - thanks - but still doesn't help globally</div>
<div> Mary Wong:The document is unsync'ed so you can each scroll individually</div>
<div> Luc Seufer:can’t we merge B.III and D and let providers the leeway?</div>
<div> Mary Wong:@Luc, which sections are you referring to?</div>
<div> Luc Seufer:Section I</div>
<div> Paul McGrady:Apologies all, but I have to drop off due to a client event. Have a great day!</div>
<div> Mary Wong:@Luc, I see, thanks</div>
<div> Chris Pelling:sorry I am not James, data mining is not what this is for</div>
<div> Graeme Bunton:I *think* I'm back, for real this time.</div>
<div> Kathy K:+1 Michele</div>
<div> Sara Bockey:+1 Michele</div>
<div> James Gannon:+1 Michele</div>
<div> Luc Seufer:I think iii is enough. The proportionality principle is already baked in the "applicable laws"</div>
<div> Luc Seufer:(for EU ones at least)</div>
<div> James Gannon:Yes</div>
<div> Kathy K:Unlimited retention in US :-(</div>
<div> Carlton Samuels:The data retention rules vary from EU to US</div>
<div> Carlton Samuels:Aaaah thks Kathy :-)</div>
<div> James Gannon:We dont want to get back into forcing providers to be in conflict with their national laws</div>
<div> Luc Seufer:and the laws should be the one of the provider and the customer</div>
<div> Luc Seufer:i.e. the owner and the processor of the data</div>
<div> steve metalitz:@Stephanie, customers and providers are not "bound to confidentiality". All providers have TOS providing for disclosure without consent of customer. </div>
<div> Stephanie Perrin:Exactly. Otherwise, if I am a commercial entity whose data has been released and then abused by the requestor, my only recourse is likely to be suing the provider.</div>
<div> Holly Raiche:@ Stephanie - a good approach - to consider that there is a contract between the customer and the requestor</div>
<div> Stephanie Perrin:@Holly exactly, and any fees would be part of that contractual relationship. Need not be onerous</div>
<div> Don Blumenthal:OTOH, no US federal retention requiremeent</div>
<div> Kathy K:Can the comments of this section by Mary now include the diversity of this discussion - and the deletion request?</div>
<div> Mary Wong:@Kathy I've been taking notes</div>
<div> Kathy K:Tx Mary</div>
<div> steve metalitz:@ Kathy, no the opposite is the case: shall is what was in Annex E, the longer language is new sugestion. </div>
<div> James Gannon:yup</div>
<div> Kathy K:@Steve: I think "encouraged but not required to"</div>
<div> Kathy K:is the better option</div>
<div> Mary Wong:Per @Steve, the original language was "shall" but without a specific number of calendar days - that was what was put out for public comment and the 3 calendar days and "encouraged" language was put in after the comments came in</div>
<div> Alex Deacon: is the telephone a "secure communication channel"?</div>
<div> Holly Raiche:I think Grame's question is a good one - is the P/P provivder doing nothing okay?</div>
<div> James Gannon:Thats the idea.</div>
<div> James Gannon:Alex: Depends of the country. Some consider it securre some dont.</div>
<div> Alex Deacon:one could argue that a phone call is more secure than naked email. </div>
<div> Holly Raiche:@ Alex - a cswitched cis=rcuit is most derintely more security than TCP/IP. However, if it is a VoIP call, it's over TCP/IP protocol</div>
<div> Holly Raiche:sorry for misspelling</div>
<div> James Gannon:+1 Holly, depends on the tech used in the country in question</div>
<div> Holly Raiche:@ James - absolutely agree</div>
<div> Val S:How about examples?</div>
<div> steve metalitz:@Michele, not clear if you are for or against nicluding this phrase "using secure communications channel"? </div>
<div> Michele Neylon:For</div>
<div> Val S:so just communication channel? </div>
<div> Holly Raiche:I like carrier pigeon</div>
<div> Carlton Samuels:@Michele: +1. Keep it high level. It is policy advice, not implementation instructions</div>
<div> Stephanie Perrin:"generally agreed security principles" seems to apply here, as it doesin most data protection law....</div>
<div> James Gannon:Carrier pidgeon using a one time pad I'll take</div>
<div> Mary Wong:All, do bear in mind that even with high level policy recommendations, they will need to be "translated" into implementable, clear advice for accreditation.</div>
<div> Michele Neylon:I'm not speaking on behalf of the providers :)</div>
<div> Michele Neylon:I'm speaking on behalf of me / one of my companies</div>
<div> Mary Wong:That will be the job of the Implementation Review Team that will be formed after the recommendations are formally approved/adopted by the GNSO Council and then the Board.</div>
<div> James Gannon:Email is inherently insecure</div>
<div> steve metalitz:@Kathy and Paul if still there, how about subteam 4 -- status? </div>
<div> Holly Raiche:Anything TCP/IP based is 'best endeavours'</div>
<div> Don Blumenthal:Carrier pigeons are extinct. </div>
<div> Chris Pelling:@Don, they all got eaten ;)</div>
<div> Holly Raiche:@ Chris - which is why maybe they weren't 'secure' communications</div>
<div> Chris Pelling:@Holly, how could you prove otherwise with no evidence ?</div>
<div> Chris Pelling::)</div>
<div> Michele Neylon:Chris - you wouldn't eat the pigeopns in Milan</div>
<div> Michele Neylon:well you could, but you'd only do it once</div>
<div> Don Blumenthal:Yep. Or taken to inercept messages</div>
<div> steve metalitz:@Kathy can you point me to where in NCSG comments the "reasonable basis" formulation is opposed? </div>
<div> steve metalitz:@ Jeames G Both formulations are "old language" </div>
<div> steve metalitz:James</div>
<div> Stephanie Perrin:We need further discussion on these changes in my view, not clear yet where we are landing.</div>
<div> Kathy K:@Steve: the full language and all options were put out for public comment, </div>
<div> James Gannon:thanks all</div>
<div> Val S:thanks all</div>
<div> Kathy K:Tx All!</div>
<div> Luc Seufer:thanks</div>
<div> Gisella Gruber:Thank you all!</div>
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