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Hi James,<br>
I am all in favor of the carrot -- "An accredited PP Service
Provider, in good standing with ICANN and acting in accordance with
the PPSAI framework shall not be held responsible for the actions of
their customers." But the flipside is not an equal and opposite
part of the equation. The fact is that in developing Internet
community, and in families coming online for the first time, it is
often one individual/one small business that registers the domain
names for a few others. They are the "training wheels" of the system
and bring others online with them. Often the domain name use itself
clearly identifies its accurate use -- a Girl Scout troop, a club,
an organization. <br>
<br>
It is not unregulated space to say that the individual registrants
are not responsible for every use of the domain name and website -
there are groups and families and customers sharing these
responsibilities. That does not make the registrant proxy/privacy
services providers either - that's not their business - and a
"strict liability" standard is not fair. I may own my car, but if my
son takes it out and gets into an accident, I get to argue that he
was driving and not me.<br>
<br>
Similarly with a domain name, the UDRP and other panels and courts
want to know who is really using the domain name - not just in whose
name it is registered. P/P accreditation is a registration issue;
liability is largely a content one. I would much rather regulate
lawyer and others who are actually offering unofficial p/p providers
than wade into these waters of content and use for individual and
small businesses and organizations... <br>
<br>
Best,<br>
Kathy<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 11/16/2015 1:14 PM, James M. Bladel
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:D26F7497.9C62A%25jbladel@godaddy.com"
type="cite">
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<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;
font-size: 14px;">
Thanks Susan & Steve for teeing up this thread.</div>
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;
font-size: 14px;">
<br>
</div>
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;
font-size: 14px;">
Generally speaking, I agree with Paul M's. (I thinK?) comments
from last week that we do not want ICANN straying in to waters
where it is managing/governing/regulating legal services. Those
frameworks are already in place (and far exceed the scope of our
work). And there will always be mechanisms for people to create
legal or commercial entities to keep their information “arms
length” from being publicly available in WHOIS. Like proxy
services for gun purchases in the US, or teenagers waiting
outside liquor stores trying to convince an adult to buy them
beer, I don’t know that we can ever fully account for those who
are actively engaged in efforts to undermine industry
requirements. </div>
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;
font-size: 14px;">
<br>
</div>
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;
font-size: 14px;">
And yet, we should acknowledge that there are parallels to what
this group (PPSAI) is trying to achieve: Namely bringing a
currently unregulated marketplace under the “ICANN umbrella”,
and subjecting it to contractual authority. Why would any
existing player volunteer for this? The current answer is
because these services are attached to Registrars, but this is
not essential to providing privacy/proxy services, and if we
aren’t careful then in the very near future unaffiliated,
unaccredited privacy/proxy services could become the norm.</div>
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;
font-size: 14px;">
<br>
</div>
<div><font face="Calibri,sans-serif">To guard against this
outcome, I think we need to recognize that Registries and
Registrars participate in ICANN and submit to its contractual
authority because there are clear and tangible benefits for
doing so. Carrots, rather than sticks. Steve & Susan
correctly point out that there are </font><span style="color:
rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size:
14px; font-style: italic;">implicit</span><font
face="Calibri,sans-serif"> protections for Registrar/PP
Services under 3.7.7.3 in the RAA. In effect, we are saying
that you are the Registrant of Record (and responsible for the
domain name), unless & until you declare otherwise. I
believe we (PPSAI) should strengthen this section (here in the
RAA, or in the PPSAI final product), by stating something to
the effect of: </font><i style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;">"An
accredited PP Service Provider, in good standing with ICANN
and acting in accordance with the PPSAI framework shall not be
held responsible for the actions of their customers.”</i><font
face="Calibri,sans-serif"> And, on the other side of the
coin: </font><i><font face="Calibri,sans-serif">“Any
individual or entity acting as a privacy or proxy service,
but lacking ICANN-accreditation or not in good standing is
considered the Registrant of Record, and is fully
responsible for the domain name registration.” </font></i></div>
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;
font-size: 14px;">
<i><br>
</i></div>
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;
font-size: 14px;">
IMO, this approach addresses a number of open questions:</div>
<ul>
<li>It provides a clear incentive for PP Services to acquire and
maintain accreditation.</li>
<li>It allows law firms or other agents of registrants to
represent their clients in WHOIS without the burden of
accreditation. </li>
<li>It injects sufficient risk / exposure to deter illicit or
rouge PP Services from dodging accreditation requirements by
claiming they are law firms.</li>
<li>It mirrors other safe harbors (DMCA) that encourage service
providers to respond to abuse complaints and terminate
services to customers, in exchange for protections from civil
action.</li>
</ul>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Naturally there are tons of details to be ironed out in
implementation (this is ICANN, after all….) but I hope this
helps expand on the idea of using concepts under RAA Sec.
3.7.7.3 to draw some lines between “Good" PP Services, “Bad” PP
Services, and Law Firms.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thanks—</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>J.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
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<br>
</div>
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<span style="font-weight:bold">From: </span><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org">gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org</a></a>>
on behalf of "Metalitz, Steven" <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:met@msk.com">met@msk.com</a>><br>
<span style="font-weight:bold">Date: </span>Monday, November
16, 2015 at 11:43 <br>
<span style="font-weight:bold">To: </span>'Susan Kawaguchi'
<<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:susank@fb.com">susank@fb.com</a>>,
PPSAI WG <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org">gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org</a>><br>
<span style="font-weight:bold">Subject: </span>Re:
[Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Accredited proxy providers vs unaccredited
proxy providers<br>
</div>
<div><br>
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<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73,
125);">Thanks Susan. I think this is the intent of
the language the co-chairs circulated after last
week’s call:
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73,
125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73,
125);">For non-accredited entities registering names
on behalf of third parties, the WG notes that the
obligations for Registered Name Holders as outlined
in section 3.7.7 of the 2013 RAA would apply.<o:p></o:p></span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73,
125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73,
125);">One relevant provision (in 3.7.7.3) states:
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73,
125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73,
125);">“</span></i><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73,
125);" lang="EN">Any Registered Name Holder that
intends to license use of a domain name to a third
party is nonetheless the Registered Name Holder of
record and is responsible for providing its own full
contact information and for providing and updating
accurate technical and administrative contact
information adequate to facilitate timely resolution
of any problems that arise in connection with the
Registered Name.”<i><o:p></o:p></i></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73,
125);" lang="EN"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73,
125);" lang="EN">Steve Metalitz
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73,
125);" lang="EN"><o:p> </o:p></span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73,
125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73,
125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></i></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt;
font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma,
sans-serif;">
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org">gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org</a>
[<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org">mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Susan Kawaguchi<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, November 16, 2015 12:34 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org">gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Accredited
proxy providers vs unaccredited proxy providers<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black;">Hello
All, <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black;"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black;">I
have given more thought about the discussion
concerning accredited proxy vendors versus all
other unaccredited proxy vendors, including lawyers.
It seems to me that we are never going to be able
to capture each variation of the unaccredited proxy
vendor and James brought up a point that I think we
should consider. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black;"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black;">If
accredited proxy vendors adhere to all the
requirements we are describing they will have the
benefit of not being considered the registrant of
the domain name. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black;"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black;">Any
other type of unaccredited proxy service should
simply not exist and they should always be
considered the registrant with all the rights and
liabilities that go along with being the registrant.
We simply would not recognize any other existing
relationship. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black;"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black;">We
could make this very clear Accredited proxy or
registrant and not delve into all the grey areas.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black;"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black;">The
unaccredited proxy provider would be considered the
Registrant in all actions including the URS and
UDRP. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black;"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black;">I
am hoping we can discuss further on the call
tomorrow. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black;"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black;">Best, <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black;"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black;">Susan
Kawaguchi<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black;">Facebook,
Inc. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black;"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
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</span>
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