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<p><font size="+1"><font face="Lucida Grande">And always very positive,
I might add, especially when you (finally) agreed I was right
on a couple of things...<span class="moz-smiley-s1"><span>:-)</span></span></font></font><br>
</p>
<font size="+1">enough dredging through history though folks, this
is why some people were worried about so many EWGers on this
group. Fortunately for those who were not in that august
assemblage of characters, there are some of us EWGers who are
convinced we failed to write the gospel on RDS......<br>
cheers Steph<br>
PS that is pronounced eeeyewgers.... </font><br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2016-04-27 23:49, Michele Neylon -
Blacknight wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:1C13BB5A-1CE4-45AF-B695-9F4B2DBCC8AC@blacknight.com"
type="cite">
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charset=windows-1252">
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<div>
<div>They were "heated discussions", not arguments" :)</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
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<div>--</div>
<div>Mr Michele Neylon</div>
<div>Blacknight Solutions</div>
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<span style="font-weight:bold">From: </span><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-purpose-bounces@icann.org"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-purpose-bounces@icann.org">gnso-rds-pdp-purpose-bounces@icann.org</a></a>>
on behalf of Carlton Samuels <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:carlton.samuels@gmail.com">carlton.samuels@gmail.com</a>><br>
<span style="font-weight:bold">Date: </span>Wednesday 27
April 2016 at 21:47<br>
<span style="font-weight:bold">To: </span>Stephanie Perrin
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:stephanie.perrin@mail.utoronto.ca">stephanie.perrin@mail.utoronto.ca</a>><br>
<span style="font-weight:bold">Cc: </span>"<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-purpose@icann.org"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-purpose@icann.org">gnso-rds-pdp-purpose@icann.org</a></a>"
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-purpose@icann.org">gnso-rds-pdp-purpose@icann.org</a>><br>
<span style="font-weight:bold">Subject: </span>Re:
[gnso-rds-pdp-purpose] Additional Information/question<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<span style="mso-bookmark:_MailOriginalBody">
<blockquote id="MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE"
style="BORDER-LEFT: #b5c4df 5 solid; PADDING:0 0 0 5;
MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">
<div>
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:comic
sans ms,sans-serif;font-size:small">
Steph;</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:comic
sans ms,sans-serif;font-size:small">
Yes, I can affirm your opposition in EWG to
sub-teams and for very good reasons. That position
helped us to the decision for each sub-team to
report at the plenary. I can affirm what we called
the "WHOIS dataset" was lifted directly from the RAA
2013 WHOIS Specifications and recorded in contract
at Section 3.3.1; I chaired the standing At-Large
WHOIS WG and 'held the pen" for quite a few of the
ALAC disputations over several years so very
familiar with it. </div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:comic
sans ms,sans-serif;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:comic
sans ms,sans-serif;font-size:small">
Yes, your arguments with Michele are legendary and
served to educate all of us when he underscored the
potentially [and substantially] larger dataset
collectible via the registrar/registrant transaction
- IP address, credit card data etc. - to make the
point that registrars could potentially collect and
curate much more data than what was contractually
obliged.</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:comic
sans ms,sans-serif;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:comic
sans ms,sans-serif;font-size:small">
And true, the sub-team discussions were not
recorded. What we do have are the worksheets which
would have been lovingly curated by that stellar
support staff. I would bet Lisa could lay her hands
on them if we asked.</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:comic
sans ms,sans-serif;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:comic
sans ms,sans-serif;font-size:small">
Best,</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:comic
sans ms,sans-serif;font-size:small">
-Carlton </div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all">
<div>
<div class="gmail_signature"><br>
==============================<br>
Carlton A Samuels<br>
Mobile: 876-818-1799<br>
<i><font color="#33CC00">Strategy, Planning,
Governance, Assessment & Turnaround</font></i><br>
=============================</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Apr 27, 2016 at 2:45
AM, Stephanie Perrin <span dir="ltr">
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:stephanie.perrin@mail.utoronto.ca"
target="_blank">stephanie.perrin@mail.utoronto.ca</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
<p><font size="+1"><font face="Lucida Grande">Sadly,
I was not on that workteam. I recall
pointing out that dividing into subteams
was not a good idea, (do you recall me
trying to get out of the privacy subteam,
saying I needed to be on all the others?
I bet Rod might....) but I do not recall
discussion of the 2013 RAA in
plenary....although I have a vivid memory
of arguing with Michele (as one does) when
he said the 2013 was out of scope as it
was in negotiation. However, I do think
us arguing about my (apparently but not
necessarily) faulty memory is fruitless
and boring for all the others who were not
in the EWG. It was not, unfortunately, a
recorded discussion, and was quite
non-transparent to others outside the
process. Also of course hard for those of
us new to ICANN to refresh our memories,
absent an official record. Not the
problem in this exercise, thank goodness.</font></font></p>
<p><font size="+1"><font face="Lucida Grande">kind
regards, <br>
</font></font></p>
<p><font size="+1"><font face="Lucida Grande">Steph</font></font></p>
<p><font size="+1"><font face="Lucida Grande">PS
if the list of data elements was lifted
straight from the RAA after signing, then
discussed in that subteam, I would not
have recognized all the other bits, eg
escrow and retention, which are
problematic...as you can see, this could
go on and on but I will indeed check my
email records just to find out how I
missed this.
</font></font><br>
</p>
<div>
<div class="h5"><br>
<div>On 2016-04-27 2:36, Carlton Samuels
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:comic sans
ms,sans-serif;font-size:small">
Actually Steph, we made extensive use
of RAA 2013 in one of the EWG subteams
I worked.</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:comic sans
ms,sans-serif;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:comic sans
ms,sans-serif;font-size:small">
Lack of user identification,
authentication and access control was
fingered as major disabilities of the
existing WHOIS protocol. Scott
[Hallenbeck], Lanre [Ajayi] and myself
were members of the subteam (if memory
serves it was G) that examined all the
data elements described in the RAA
2013 WHOIS dataset from an access
perspective, identify their source[s]
and classified them for sensitivity to
data protection rules.</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:comic sans
ms,sans-serif;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:comic sans
ms,sans-serif;font-size:small">
That outcome was the basis for
recommending the RDAP - then in final
preparatory stage by the WEIRDS WG of
the IETF - as fit and proper vehicle
for processing registration data. </div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:comic sans
ms,sans-serif;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:comic sans
ms,sans-serif;font-size:small">
Another EWG subteam (could have been D
with Michele on it) examined the RAA
WHOIS dataset from a collection
perspective + added some elements not
described therein but which we know
were generated in the course of the
user/registrar transaction. Scott and
myself then mapped the elements from
collection perspective against those
from the access perspective in an
effort to harmonize elements, all
under colour of data protection rules
to decide the elements that would be
gated for access.</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:comic sans
ms,sans-serif;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:comic sans
ms,sans-serif;font-size:small">
These were fairly detailed pieces of
work and I kept the worksheets. So
no, I cannot agree we never examined
the RAA 2013.</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:comic sans
ms,sans-serif;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:comic sans
ms,sans-serif;font-size:small">
Best,</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:comic sans
ms,sans-serif;font-size:small">
-Carlton</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all">
<div>
<div><br>
==============================<br>
Carlton A Samuels<br>
Mobile: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:876-818-1799"
value="+18768181799"
target="_blank">876-818-1799</a><br>
<i><font color="#33CC00">Strategy,
Planning, Governance,
Assessment & Turnaround</font></i><br>
=============================</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Apr
25, 2016 at 11:11 AM, Stephanie
Perrin <span dir="ltr">
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:stephanie.perrin@mail.utoronto.ca"
target="_blank">stephanie.perrin@mail.utoronto.ca</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc
solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF"
text="#000000">
<p><font size="+2"><font
face="Lucida Grande">I
would actually disagree.
We discussed the use cases
for data, accepting those
current uses as by and
large legitimate. From a
data protection
perspective, it has been
clear from the very
beginning that many of the
new purposes that
registrant data were being
put to, would not be
permissible by law under
the original purpose of
WHOIS. We never looked at
the collection instrument,
(RAA) it was accepted as
fait accompli. We did not
go over the extensive
collection of documents
that we had received from
the DPAs. So a thorough,
tabula rasa discussion of
the purpose of collection
of registrant data is in
order, in my view. And
SAC 055 agrees with that
view.</font></font></p>
<span><font color="#888888">
<p><font size="+2"><font
face="Lucida Grande">Stephanie
Perrin</font></font><br>
</p>
</font></span>
<div>
<div><br>
<div>On 2016-04-25 17:34,
Carlton Samuels wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div
style="font-family:comic
sans
ms,sans-serif;font-size:small">...and
FWIW, the Review
Team's final report
was a very important
substrate upon which
the EWG's work was
advanced.</div>
<div
style="font-family:comic
sans
ms,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br>
</div>
<div
style="font-family:comic
sans
ms,sans-serif;font-size:small">The
EWG spent an
inordinate amount of
time resolving the
question as to whether
there was a purposeful
need for registration
data and if so, what
should be collected,
the standards for
collection, how it
should be curated and
the safeguards, why
and how it should be
published and the
mechanisms for
publication.</div>
<div
style="font-family:comic
sans
ms,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br>
</div>
<div
style="font-family:comic
sans
ms,sans-serif;font-size:small">I
say again, it would be
a sign of malignancy
to embrace any attempt
to bounce the rubble
here. If there is new
and original insight
of value to the end
game, let it be
heard. </div>
<div
style="font-family:comic
sans
ms,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br>
</div>
<div
style="font-family:comic
sans
ms,sans-serif;font-size:small">Otherwise,
enough good minds and
treasure are exhausted
answering those
questions. </div>
<div
style="font-family:comic
sans
ms,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br>
</div>
<div
style="font-family:comic
sans
ms,sans-serif;font-size:small">Lets
get on with it.</div>
<div
style="font-family:comic
sans
ms,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br>
</div>
<div
style="font-family:comic
sans
ms,sans-serif;font-size:small">-Carlton</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br
clear="all">
<div>
<div><br>
==============================<br>
Carlton A Samuels<br>
Mobile: <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:876-818-1799" value="+18768181799" target="_blank">876-818-1799</a><br>
<i><font
color="#33CC00">Strategy,
Planning,
Governance,
Assessment &
Turnaround</font></i><br>
=============================</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On
Mon, Apr 25, 2016 at
8:08 AM, Kathy Kleiman
<span dir="ltr">
<<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:kathy@kathykleiman.com" target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:kathy@kathykleiman.com">kathy@kathykleiman.com</a></a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote
class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px
#ccc
solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div
bgcolor="#FFFFFF"
text="#000000">Hi
Marika and All, <br>
I think my
concerns run to
(iii) and (v)
below as the
limitations of
certain documents
(especially ones
people refer to
often) have
definitely been a
part of the
discussion of this
subgroup. I would
note that certain
document in the
summaries already
contain some red
highlighted notes,
and I would like
to request that
similar notes be
added *within our
summary* of the
Whois Review Team
Final Report and
within our
subgroup report to
the full WG. Here
are the bullet
points you
requested (tx for
asking!):<br>
<br>
- The Whois Review
Team was<i> </i><i>expressly
barred </i><i>from
looking at the
purpose of the
Whois system</i>.
It was allowed to
look only at
ICANN's "existing
policy relating to
WHOIS" per the
Affirmation of
Commitments signed
between US
Department of
Commerce and ICANN
in 2009. <br>
<br>
- Even within that
scope, the Whois
Review Team Final
Report expressly
recommended
protection of
privacy for
commercial
companies,
noncommercial
organizations and
individuals
(finding that each
shared with us
legal and
legitimate reasons
for privacy
including
as-yet-unannounced
mergers, new movie
names, unpopular
religious, ethnic
and policy views,
etc).
<br>
<br>
- The Whois Review
Team Final Report
advised ICANN to
work towards a
standard of
"contactability"
<i>- reaching the
registrant by </i><i>some
</i><i>means
rather than </i><i>all
means
</i>- which we
wrote as: "ICANN
should take
appropriate
measures to reduce
the number of
WHOIS
registrations that
fall into the
accuracy groups
Substantial
Failure and Full
Failure (as
defined by the
NORC Data Accuracy
Study, 2009/10..."
p. 87.<br>
<br>
We were tasked
with conveying to
the full WG our
understanding of
"purpose" as
guided by these
documents - and
these notes add
key insights and
understandings to
it (as we shared
many times in
presenting this
Final Report to
ICANN in 2012).
<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
Kathy
<div>
<div><br>
<br>
On 4/24/2016
8:35 PM,
Marika Konings
wrote:<br>
<blockquote
type="cite">
<pre>Kathy, all, as a reminder, each sub-team is expected to answer the
following questions in relation to the work it has undertaken:
(i) Did this input inventory produce any insights to inform the WGıs work
plan?
(ii) Which inputs are likely to be the most important [relevant] during WG
deliberations and why?
(iii) Which inputs, if any, generated the most discussion within the small
team?
(iv) Which inputs may be obsolete or super-ceded by subsequent work?
(v) What input gaps, if any, may need to be addressed later?
(vi) Other key takeaways from this input inventory the team wishes to
share with the WG
Your concern appears to fall under item v? If you would like to summarise
your concerns in a few bullets, the sub-team can maybe use these to start
building out the responses to the questions?
Best regards,
Marika
On 22/04/16 15:13, <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-purpose-bounces@icann.orgonbehalfofKathyKleiman" target="_blank">"gnso-rds-pdp-purpose-bounces@icann.org on behalf of
Kathy Kleiman"</a> <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-purpose-bounces@icann.orgonbehalfofkathy@kathykleiman.com" target="_blank"><gnso-rds-pdp-purpose-bounces@icann.org on behalf of
kathy@kathykleiman.com></a> wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote
type="cite">
<pre>Hi Susan and Lisa,
I have a question (which certainly does not have to be answered on a
Friday afternoon), but some deep concerns have been raised on this list
by people who helped created various documents and reports that we are
now evaluating. For example, I raised the fact that it was completely
out of scope for the Whois Review Team to evaluate the data collected in
Whois and the primary purpose for which it was created. By the
Affirmation of Commitments, we had to deal with the Whois system as it
existed (and had been passed to ICANN from the National Science
Foundation).
We could not and did not address or deal with primary purpose. I think
this limitation and fact is critical to the understanding and evaluation
of the Whois Review Team report, especially as it applies to our
question of "purpose."
How can this point be added to Whois Review Team Final Report summary -
perhaps in Additional Information? -- and to our discussion?
Tx,
Kathy
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